Old 07-20-2010, 08:17 PM #1505
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by psi seeker 34 View Post
Again a method of dating that can easily become skewed If the specimen is subjected to higher radiation levels or a larger quantity of the element you're testing for than would be normally found. A good example of this is a coal miner who died in the 1920's due to an incident in the mine. 1)When his remains were tested for carbon 214 it registered that he was billions of years old. Likewise any testing that isn't based subjectively upon the quantitative analysis of the abundance of the element being tested for in the area the specimen was found will inevitability be skewed. 2)Further more it is easy for a united states citizen to buy small quantities of carbon 214 and dope the specimen with enough radioactive material to intentionally skew the results. 3)As such all tests that are not done by independent studies have a chance of having fabricated results and thus should not be taken without a grain of salt.
Sorry. I feel compelled to correct you, because you just don't get it.
1) Impossible. The maximum limit for carbon dating is 58,000 to 62,000 years. If some one used carbon dating to establish an age of billions of years. Then they were doing it wrong.
Please provide evidence for your claim. (unless you just made it up)
2) Carbon 214? Find me some. DNE (does not exist)
It's Carbon-14, and I haven't seen any on eBay for over 4,000 years. It's actually very funny that you think that someone would be "doping" samples with C-14 to skew any results.
Interestingly enough, you would have to "dope" the samples with Nitrogen-14 (the resultant isotope from beta-decay of carbon-14) to skew the result toward -> older. Adding more Carbon-14 would actually skew the results toward -> younger. Perhaps one of you crazy bible-thumpers tried, maybe that's where you got the idea.
3) All of these tests are done independently and numerous times by different scientists. It's called the scientific method, and it allows for independent verification (or contradiction) of a conclusion based on observable, empirical and measurable evidence.


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Old 07-20-2010, 08:40 PM #1506
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have no evidence for the statement about the coal miner incident as I don't know where the story originally came from. But as for the measuring time by thickness and number of rock layers it is an extremely common practice on the discovery or history channel for a archaeologist or geologist to make such claims. Also last I knew carbon 14 dating was based on the cumulative effect of back ground radiation hitting the carbon atoms in the remains of a carbon based life form thus forming heavy carbon and other shorter lived radioactive isotopes as typically happens in nuclear physics. The result being that more carbon 14 accumulates as the sample ages.

Btw I'm still looking for the pic with the partly buried trees.

For the record. http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=469 Carbon 14 sold in small enough quantities to not need special licensing
(I stand corrected carbon 214 exists not)
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:24 PM #1507
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by psi seeker 34 View Post
1) But as for the measuring time by thickness and number of rock layers it is an extremely common practice on the discovery or history channel for a archaeologist or geologist to make such claims.
2) Also last I knew carbon 14 dating was based on the cumulative effect of back ground radiation hitting the carbon atoms in the remains of a carbon based life form thus forming heavy carbon and other shorter lived radioactive isotopes as typically happens in nuclear physics. The result being that more carbon 14 accumulates as the sample ages.
3) For the record. Individual Isotope Disk Source(Large Beta-only) Isotope Disk Source (Large Beta-only) : United Nuclear , Scientific Equipment & Supplies Carbon 14 sold in small enough quantities to not need special licensing
(I stand corrected carbon 214 exists not)
1) "I saw it on TV, so it must be the right way." - you fail at rationalizing
One can make qualitative judgement (ie: older than x) but not a quantitative judgement (ie: exactly x years old) based on the thickness of a rock layer.
2) Incorrect. The Carbon-14 decays to Nitrogen-14 so there would be much less Carbon-14 in the sample, and more Nitrogen-14.
3) Sweet. Thanks for the link.
But, the point still remains: if one added C-14 to a sample being carbon-dated, it would appear much younger, thus adding to the Christian fundamentalist's argument over the age of the earth.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:49 PM #1508
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

One must recognize that because C-14 decays into N-14 that by adding C-14 you are also adding N-14 in trace quantities at the very least.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:53 PM #1509
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by psi seeker 34 View Post
I have no evidence for the statement about the coal miner incident as I don't know where the story originally came from. But as for the measuring time by thickness and number of rock layers it is an extremely common practice on the discovery or history channel for a archaeologist or geologist to make such claims. Also last I knew carbon 14 dating was based on the cumulative effect of back ground radiation hitting the carbon atoms in the remains of a carbon based life form thus forming heavy carbon and other shorter lived radioactive isotopes as typically happens in nuclear physics. The result being that more carbon 14 accumulates as the sample ages.

Btw I'm still looking for the pic with the partly buried trees.

For the record. Individual Isotope Disk Source(Large Beta-only) Isotope Disk Source (Large Beta-only) : United Nuclear , Scientific Equipment & Supplies Carbon 14 sold in small enough quantities to not need special licensing
(I stand corrected carbon 214 exists not)
Now you made me laugh You are soooooo far off

Carbon 14 decays at a steady rate. A percentage of all carbon is carbon-14 This percentage stays the same. Living things have this same percentage of carbon 14 in them. It's NOT a total amount of carbon, it's the percentage of c-12 to c-14. As DEAD things age, c-12 being stable doesn't change. while the c-14 decays away, and without things being alive to keep the carbon exchanging this ratio will change. In radiocarbon dating, the less c-14 vs c-12 there is, the older the sample. Adding c-14 would make something appear MUCH younger. Granted as others have already stated, acquiring pure carbon 14 to tamper with carbon dating, would only be able to be to pretend something was actually young when it's not.

Now if you could remove carbon-14 from something you could in theory make something look older. But you won't be able to separate the isotopes inside any object. Isotope separation is insanely expensive and power consuming. Look up how easy it is to separate U-235 from U-238 for instance. The cheating carbon dating methods would only work for you bible crazy types.

As for rock layers. The thickness of rock layers is NEVER used to determine age. Ever. One can compare age of strata by saying the layers on the bottom are older then the layers on the top, as there is this little constant thing called gravity that tends to keep them sitting still. But you can never judge age of any rock based on thickness of layers. Any given layer will vary in thickness from one point to another. I have serious doubts about your claim of "Rock" around a tree being sedimentary. Clay is quite possible, dirt is also possible. But even mudstone takes pressure to form. Lithification just doesn't happen by water depositing mud and dirt. Pressure and time are needed. I can think of a way for a tree to be surrounded by a hard substance that looks like a conglomerate. However unless a cement truck wrecks next to it, it's unlikely to happen.......

EDIT: I don't think I explained that very well on the carbon dating. While you are alive. your ENTIRE life you maintain a constant ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14. all living things do. We are carbon based the carbon is in constant motion. For as long as we live, the ratio doesn't change because we are exchanging the carbon with our environment. Once you die. you are no longer exchanging carbon with your environment and the carbon stays locked away and the ratio between the two can change. Carbon dating is just measuring the ratio between the two as precisely as possible. N-14, making up about 78% of the air we breath is fairly well distributed and in high concentrations. I don't know if they even check for it at all.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:50 PM #1510
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I found the only pics I've found don't show living trees in a rock deposit however the petrified trees are embedded in sedimentary not volcanic rock. For pics look up "Polystrate Fossils"
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/earthage.html
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:03 PM #1511
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
Sorry. I feel compelled to correct you, because you just don't get it.
1) Impossible. The maximum limit for carbon dating is 58,000 to 62,000 years. If some one used carbon dating to establish an age of billions of years. Then they were doing it wrong.
Please provide evidence for your claim. (unless you just made it up)
2) Carbon 214? Find me some. DNE (does not exist)
It's Carbon-14, and I haven't seen any on eBay for over 4,000 years. It's actually very funny that you think that someone would be "doping" samples with C-14 to skew any results.
Interestingly enough, you would have to "dope" the samples with Nitrogen-14 (the resultant isotope from beta-decay of carbon-14) to skew the result toward -> older. Adding more Carbon-14 would actually skew the results toward -> younger. Perhaps one of you crazy bible-thumpers tried, maybe that's where you got the idea.
3) All of these tests are done independently and numerous times by different scientists. It's called the scientific method, and it allows for independent verification (or contradiction) of a conclusion based on observable, empirical and measurable evidence.
bear in mind decay ends up like an asymptote. its only accurate to around 70,000 years, but its possible that when checking it there was only a few hundred atoms of c-14 left which could be traced to that long. not that they would believe it, or it be accurate, but may have just been a freak result.

but on second thought theres nothing that can easily reduce c-14 levels is there? if there was something that binded to carbon in general it could reduce levels perhaps.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:05 PM #1512
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by psi seeker 34 View Post
I found the only pics I've found don't show living trees in a rock deposit however the petrified trees are embedded in sedimentary not volcanic rock. For pics look up "Polystrate Fossils"
Thanks for the link!!! It's been a while since I have enjoyed reading something that much. (And I've only barely scratched the surface of it) And yes fossils typically are in sedimentary deposits. That page is funny
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:10 PM #1513
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The funniest thing about it is they have many statements that claim "facts" but very few citations from experienced scientists.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:40 PM #1514
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by psi seeker 34 View Post
The funniest thing about it is they have many statements that claim "facts" but very few citations from experienced scientists.
Because it was written by uneducated fools. This is the best quote:
"The Evolutionist who doesn't believe the Bible, and does not believe there ever was a flood can not allow himself to accept this interpretation. Because if there was a flood, then the Bible was right. And if the Bible is right, then there Is a God.. And if there is a God, then God has the right to make rules for us to follow."
Love the reasoning on this one.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:47 PM #1515
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The lack of understanding of atomic dating and decay here is lol-worthy... Also, haven't they found 2 billion year old zirconium crystals? It would be hard to skew the results THAT much...
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Old 07-21-2010, 03:51 PM #1516
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

psi seeker, in plain language you are an idiot!

... But let me cut you some slack, (as I have been trying to do with your other somewhat ludicrous posts!)

You appear to me to be a young misguided fool as opposed to a time served, life-long ignoramus. Your contribution to this thread, and others, shows how much you do not know, and your argumentative nature.

Now, you might appreciate this next bit...

If I didn't have the blind faith that you were just a young, uninformed human being with a lot of growing up to do and the capacity to change, I might be tempted to conclude that, because of the often contradictory evidence placed before me, by you, that you are an out and out troll.

(Note to rest: I actually don't think I could be classed as a total believer in psi's state of ignorance, and the reasons for it, as I am prepared to be shown to be wrong in most, if not all, circumstances. I believe, (ha!), this is called healthy agnosticism, (in the biblical sense). I hope I am right and my beliefs in him pan out because, boy, will I be disappointed if I wasted all that effort to find out I was totally wrong at the end of it. Hmmm, much like life... )

psi, my hopes are that you will go away and find your own truth with regards to life, the universe and everything, rather than perpetuate what I see as a massively flawed doctrine. With regards to the rest of this forum however, I think you can change. You can learn and understand that you need to read a lot more, stop posting incorrect information and bad practices and, although it is sometimes relevant to take a small aside to a topic, you need to contribute with a basic respect for the title of a thread; something you don't always do. These errs will be pointed out to you ever more forcefully in my experience.

I have given you these basic forum commandments but as you might be aware, you have something called free will. I don't care what you do with it but you will end up being punished if you make the wrong choices. You must have come across a similar system somewhere?

Religion is endlessly debatable but lasers are based in fact and science and that's where I like to be, not dealing with speculation and sifting through the misinformation.

I hope you will come around, and join this congregation; and not martyr yourself with a ban.

M
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:01 AM #1517
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have noticed that my argumentative nature tends to get me into enough trouble that I never get a good reputation on forums but I also notice that I admit my errors when I'm wrong frequently enough to prevent being banned though I'm getting better at ending trouble before it starts. I would like to point out Morgan that ,though it may not be your intention , your most recent post was neither helpful nor on topic with this thread and it seemed to come from anger alone. It is because of this that it could quickly become ,if it's not already, a flame war that if continued might get both of us in trouble.

At any rate, back to the topic on hand.
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The formula for finding the answer to any impossible question is onion-banana juice divided by the square root of infinity.

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Old 07-22-2010, 03:12 AM #1518
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Knowing you have a problem and not doing anything about it won't do you any favours and you are doomed to repeat your mistakes. This is not anger, this is a wake up call!

This has gone to PM folks...

M
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:13 AM #1519
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Oh is this the global warming thread?

Oh is this the religion thread?
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Old 07-22-2010, 06:06 AM #1520
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Global warming? Now that's a thread I'd like to see some speculation in!

If you feel you're up to it boscoj then go for it. What side of the fence do you sit? I'm up for some opinions on this one!

There's loads of thoughts on both sides for that. New thread coming soon me thinks...

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