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Old 06-27-2010, 06:32 PM #1409
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Hemlock_Mike View Post
Science and religion can co-exist. We here only attempt to understand and quantify the laws made at creation.

Mike
Agreed. Glad I'm not the only person here who feels that way.

Proud Christian, but that doesn't stop me from believing in science. God and science do not have to be mutually exclusive.


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Old 06-29-2010, 01:16 PM #1410
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm surprised there are so many atheists in the forum it's not funny (well maybe it is) I myself am a dedicated christian.


I guess I'm on the left and most of the forum is on the right


But wait my location is Hell lol I still love God and Jesus
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:22 PM #1411
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The link in your sig is broken...
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:51 PM #1412
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:41 PM #1413
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Lol love Niko's comic and Dan's Cat picture

Just wanted to point out that after all this time, and all this fairly useless babbling, and all the many participators of this thread...

We got owned by the old Arctic thread in a matter of weeks.

[insert MIA facepalm smilie here]

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Old 07-09-2010, 12:42 AM #1414
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

i think its fine to believe what you want so long as you have a reason that you truely believe valid. I am a christian myself but I dont fit within a denomination I guess. Was never raised with a religion but I think christianity makes most sense. My reasons for believing:

1. No argument against christianity has directly addressed my beliefs. Most arguments seem to be based on what I consider misunderstanding of christian beliefs (as is many of the beliefs of those who claim to be christian)

2. My main train of thought in belief reasoning:

- it is perfectly possible a god could exist. we neither know everything about the universe, and even if we discovered every last law, everything is but an illusion of senses, and even that idea is not definite. I believe in philosophy we get to "i think, therefore i am" and then have to start making assumptions. Thus reason cannot absolutely show there is no god. for one thing, if god was all powerful, wouldnt he be able to hide his existence from scientific rigours?

- ok, so thats no proof a god exists. so, we just have to go on whatever seems like a god figure making contact with us. the bible and stuff seems like a good start.

- this is where opinion comes in. I choose the bible as being most likely to be gods message. this is because the core values within the bible are always of benefit to us as people, and I cannot see any value for whoever wrote it. sure, later on it was twisted to serve peoples own ends, but it makes more sense to make something that requires no twisting in the first place. most people nowadays who have a fair knowledge of what the bible says can tell when someone is trying to twist it to their needs. There is also alot of wisdom in the bible. the way all the commandments were condensed down to love on another for example. it fits perfectly, as it was the root of all the commandments in the first place (except for things like only serve god but will address that soon)

3. The misunderstandings etc
the typical atheist will state christians as believing in a man in the sky, a conscious being who directly meddles in/is the root of all human activity. thus spawns arguments like "why is there evil" and "everything is created from god, hence why evil" etc.
Personally I dont believe its nearly as simple. in fact the core of my beliefs I guess is that you shouldnt try to nit-pick the details of the bible. for example, it wasnt exactly what happened in the parables that were important, the important thing is the lesson that was learned.
it makes sense, in a way. would something all powerful etc be simple?
what if god literally is love, hence worshipping god is simply dedicating your life to being a loving person? thats only an example to prove my point, but never is it stated exactly gods nature, and i believe much of the bible to be metaphorical.

another argument is that of god damning you to hell for not worshipping him. what if hell is simply having some sort of consciousness after death, and being tortured by memories of treating people badly? what can god do then to save you when treating people right by your own decisions is what is required to know of your willing contribution?

people mock the garden of eden story. i personally believe the eating of the fruit of wisdom thing represents the development of technology (hence seperating ourselves from nature/kicked from "garden") and the snake our greed for more power, comfort, etc (essentially the root of all conventional sin coincidentally)

i know this is all just unfounded theories, and theres not everything that i can explain, such as some old testament stuff, but at the core of my beliefs in a very simple idea: use your intuition, your common sense, dont read too deep and keep things relevant. opposed to gay marriage? who cares if being gays a sin, the bible says dont judge. state your opinion then give others the respect they are due whoever they are. i dont flaunt my beliefs, hard as that would be to do considerating the amount of explaination it would require. most dont know im even christian. if you are christian, dont show it by your words, show it by your actions and how your treat people in general. if you fail in your beliefs, dont go inventing ways of punishment or something, just try again harder, and be genuinely sorry for them. and remember, no one knows everything. someone elses beliefs may be true and yours false. it stands to reason if your beliefs are true, they will stand up to scrutiny, so you may as well welcome it, otherwise you are not confident your beliefs can stand to reason

sorry this got a bit longwinded lol
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:53 AM #1415
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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sorry this got a bit longwinded lol
Longwinded? I don't know what you're talking about

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Old 07-09-2010, 01:41 AM #1416
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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(epic post)
In response to what I see your points as being:

It sounds like you believe that Christianity (and maybe other religions) give a good base for morality, which is a fair point to make in many situations. Some people twist this, however, saying that because religion "gives" morality, atheists/agnostics are supposedly living without morals, which is not the case. Moral codes and religion are not the same thing, but too many people say that they are so. The belief in religion itself isn't necessarily bad, but are the "side effects" of religion (the inconsistencies/conflicting beliefs and extemism/dogma/warped truths/effects on thought process/inherent issues of organised religion) worth the benefits, if morality can be achieved without the need for religion anyway? (This is just from an idealised perspective, since obviously, only people who listen are going to change - and plenty of people go around with their fingers in their ears.)

You say that God is not a literal entity as described as in the Bible, more of an abstract concept/concepts, and that the Bible has been twisted but the original message of morality remains the same. Again, a fair point - but another way it could be seen is that the concepts you described (loving, devotion, and the essence of "good") are human characteristics - characteristics that can be shown to be a result of social evolution and our biology. You'll find that "right" and "wrong" align themselves with "good for a society" and "bad for a society" pretty well - which suggests that evolution created our innate and social perception of morality. But what we consider as "good" or neutral could be seen from an entirely robotic/unemotional side as bad - there is no "universal" reference point of good or evil. Hence, it is far more likely (in my opinion) that we created God as an ideal of these human characteristics (also as a paternal figure - why else is God a "He" in the Bible?).

My last point is that, if you were born without having been exposed to a culture with strong ties to Christianity, would you still feel the same way, or do you think that your culture, upbringing and education have all contributed to your inclination to believing in a "Christian" god? Labelling yourself as a Christian gives the associations with the literal belief in a concrete consciousness of a God (as a real entity, with actual effects on the real world), which I take it you don't feel. In that case, why do you believe that this abstract God is the Christian god and not any other, if not at least in part for your upbringing? Why not any other religion?


My points above are taken from my own perspective as well as others, and are not intended disrespectfully to anyone. I hope I've given you a little food for thought in return, though - your post gave me plenty to think about.
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:12 AM #1417
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 07-09-2010, 02:13 AM #1418
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliebruce View Post
In response to what I see your points as being:

It sounds like you believe that Christianity (and maybe other religions) give a good base for morality, which is a fair point to make in many situations. Some people twist this, however, saying that because religion "gives" morality, atheists/agnostics are supposedly living without morals, which is not the case. Moral codes and religion are not the same thing, but too many people say that they are so. The belief in religion itself isn't necessarily bad, but are the "side effects" of religion (the inconsistencies/conflicting beliefs and extemism/dogma/warped truths/effects on thought process/inherent issues of organised religion) worth the benefits, if morality can be achieved without the need for religion anyway? (This is just from an idealised perspective, since obviously, only people who listen are going to change - and plenty of people go around with their fingers in their ears.)
yeah, seems reasonable. but if someone is unknowingly following what jesus teaches, isnt he still not following? although i guess in that sense jesus cant claim credit for inventing morals lol
i believe if someone twists something he is no longer believing what it was before he twisted it. someone who kills in gods name is not a christian for example. I cant blame the bible for the people who twist it.
Quote:
You say that God is not a literal entity as described as in the Bible, more of an abstract concept/concepts, and that the Bible has been twisted but the original message of morality remains the same. Again, a fair point - but another way it could be seen is that the concepts you described (loving, devotion, and the essence of "good") are human characteristics - characteristics that can be shown to be a result of social evolution and our biology. You'll find that "right" and "wrong" align themselves with "good for a society" and "bad for a society" pretty well - which suggests that evolution created our innate and social perception of morality. But what we consider as "good" or neutral could be seen from an entirely robotic/unemotional side as bad - there is no "universal" reference point of good or evil. Hence, it is far more likely (in my opinion) that we created God as an ideal of these human characteristics (also as a paternal figure - why else is God a "He" in the Bible?).
I do actually believe what you said, that evil and good is just perception. and i can agree that even perception is a result of just complex mechanics. but i dont see how that changes anything, i think some people just hang on to the idea of a magic soul or something because it stops them from having to think. still, i think we ourselves define evil, in the motivations of our actions, and that the fact that we alone of animals do this is what is referred to as us being created in gods image. something as abstract as the idea of god cant be pinned down as easily as saying we make him. we have to make him anyway, as we do all of reality. and like reality, what you make of him may not be real, just as real loses meaning outside of cognition.
Quote:
My last point is that, if you were born without having been exposed to a culture with strong ties to Christianity, would you still feel the same way, or do you think that your culture, upbringing and education have all contributed to your inclination to believing in a "Christian" god? Labelling yourself as a Christian gives the associations with the literal belief in a concrete consciousness of a God (as a real entity, with actual effects on the real world), which I take it you don't feel. In that case, why do you believe that this abstract God is the Christian god and not any other, if not at least in part for your upbringing? Why not any other religion?
i think its possible he is a real entity in the sense you imply, i just dont want to make that assumption based on the fact there is much about him i dont understand. the christian culture round here isnt actual christianity. protestant and catholic is more a political thing here. im techicaly presbyterian as far as family goes, but i think my mum is essentially atheist, my dads presence was non existant, etc. i was taught about christianity at school of course, but i have dismissed of it what i consider wrong so i like to think i have decided for myself.
christianity to me fits what i think a god would most likely be like, in definition, almost hard to define, and his messages as mentioned make sense to me. taking into account my own lapses in judgement ofc. actually, i've heard somewhere buddhists say we cant be sure of an afterlife or god and so should just be nice in case. that seems a good philosophy, except that to my judgement god has given signs of his presence. the reason i wouldnt believe, in say, islam, is that people find justification to kill from it. i know people have killed in gods name, but only buy lying about what the bible says. there is no way to justify killing from the bible because its directly against a firm rule. obviously people have found ways to justify it in the Quran, so in ways it seems a bit to me like an imperfect copy of the bible (sorry if im not taking other differences into account). it also seems to make random rules, about things like masturbation, that just seem to be there to make people feel guilty. overall it seems more focused on negatives and telling people what to do. in the bible telling people to love each other, its extremely flexible.
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:18 PM #1419
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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to my judgement god has given signs of his presence.
Such as?

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Originally Posted by Fonduman View Post
the core values within the bible are always of benefit to us as people
Srsly?... Have you even READ the bible?

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hence worshipping god is simply dedicating your life to being a loving person?
...What? They're not the same thing. A loving, kind atheist for example would never be described as "worshiping God."

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the bible says dont judge.
The Bible also says it's okay to own slaves and that anyone caught working on Sunday should be put to death. On what basis are you choosing which parts of the bible to believe in?

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i think its fine to believe what you want so long as you have a reason that you truely believe valid
Thank goodness that kind of thinking doesn't stand up in court when trying serial killers, eh?

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it stands to reason if your beliefs are true, they will stand up to scrutiny
Christianity never HAS stood up well to scrutiny, has it?
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Old 07-10-2010, 07:23 PM #1420
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Christianity, as ANY other religion, simply put itself over anything other, regardless the facts or the truths.

(and, before you ask me, yes, i'm christisn, too)
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Old 07-11-2010, 03:03 PM #1421
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fonduman View Post
yeah, seems reasonable. but if someone is unknowingly following what jesus teaches, isnt he still not following? although i guess in that sense jesus cant claim credit for inventing morals lol
i believe if someone twists something he is no longer believing what it was before he twisted it. someone who kills in gods name is not a christian for example. I cant blame the bible for the people who twist it.

My point was, in a roundabout way, that people *do* abuse religion to justify what many people call evil, and by labelling yourself as a particular religion, you are "tainted" by association as much as anything else. In their minds, they are still following the "true" way - people who fly planes into buildings are absolutely certain that what they're doing is right and justified by their religion, but "moderates" can read the same texts and detest the very idea of that kind of murder. To me, that seems that the message of religion is partly in the eye of the beholder. Plus, even without extremism, religion still leads you to accept all of the inconsistencies and "side effects" I listed.

I do actually believe what you said, that evil and good is just perception. and i can agree that even perception is a result of just complex mechanics. but i dont see how that changes anything, i think some people just hang on to the idea of a magic soul or something because it stops them from having to think. still, i think we ourselves define evil, in the motivations of our actions, and that the fact that we alone of animals do this is what is referred to as us being created in gods image. something as abstract as the idea of god cant be pinned down as easily as saying we make him. we have to make him anyway, as we do all of reality. and like reality, what you make of him may not be real, just as real loses meaning outside of cognition.

My point here was that I personally think that humans resulted from evolution, merely by chance. Our primitive societies only survived if the members all did things that were "good for society" - and that instinct towards improving society is what we call morality or "good". Religion is just an extension of this concept, combined with other factors in our brains (confirmation bias, superstition, overactive pattern-spotting, incomplete understanding of scientific principle and correlation/causation and so on).

i think its possible he is a real entity in the sense you imply, i just dont want to make that assumption based on the fact there is much about him i dont understand. the christian culture round here isnt actual christianity. protestant and catholic is more a political thing here. im techicaly presbyterian as far as family goes, but i think my mum is essentially atheist, my dads presence was non existant, etc. i was taught about christianity at school of course, but i have dismissed of it what i consider wrong so i like to think i have decided for myself.

Even if you think you have decided by yourself, is that necessarily the case? If you grew up in a middle-Eastern culture, even without a family or school tie to the religion, I have no doubt that the whole experience of life there would have a huge impact on your beliefs - Christianity would be barely more than a seed of an idea in your mind, and not something that you feel an affiliation with. I grew up in both a multicultural/international and later a (technically) Christian school, so I've been taught about Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and Christianity to a greater extent than most people. At home I've been raised non-religiously. I have no doubt that my education has affected my perception of religions, as well as some of my beliefs.

christianity to me fits what i think a god would most likely be like, in definition, almost hard to define, and his messages as mentioned make sense to me. taking into account my own lapses in judgement ofc. actually, i've heard somewhere buddhists say we cant be sure of an afterlife or god and so should just be nice in case. that seems a good philosophy, except that to my judgement god has given signs of his presence. the reason i wouldnt believe, in say, islam, is that people find justification to kill from it. i know people have killed in gods name, but only buy lying about what the bible says. there is no way to justify killing from the bible because its directly against a firm rule. obviously people have found ways to justify it in the Quran, so in ways it seems a bit to me like an imperfect copy of the bible (sorry if im not taking other differences into account). it also seems to make random rules, about things like masturbation, that just seem to be there to make people feel guilty. overall it seems more focused on negatives and telling people what to do. in the bible telling people to love each other, its extremely flexible.

I'm guessing that you haven't had as much of an experience with the other religion - as can be expected by your upbringing, so your judgements here are based on hearsay and a cultural inclination to seeing the good in Christianity, and an alienation with other faiths, rather than with hard experience. As Cyparagon said, people can read the Bible in such a way that they can justify slavery and hatred of homo***uality, amongst others. It's more about the reader (confirmation bias)and their attitude, than the text itself.
See comments inline.

Psychology can explain an awful lot about how and why our minds work - people are on the whole predictable and manipulatable if you know what to look for.

Take this for an example: EDIT:WATCH IT ALL before debating seriously!


You can also see psychology playing a huge part of "superstition" (see ouija boards - actually ideomotor, and gambling "lucky streaks"/"lucky charms" - confirmation bias) but some people believe it to be true. To me, that shows that humans are susceptible to believing something if it's presented in the right way - and that the mind plays tricks that make things seem very real. Religion is just an extension of these superstitions and tricks of the mind, that has become ingrained in our culture incredibly deeply.


Also see this for a laugh:





EDIT 2: I guess that, based on your arguments above, this statement will fit you pretty accurately:

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself. You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic. Security is one of your major goals in life.

How well does that fit you? Rate that out of 5, WRITE THAT NUMBER DOWN so you can't change it, then look here.

EDIT 3:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
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Last edited by charliebruce; 07-11-2010 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 07-11-2010, 04:13 PM #1422
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

lol. i'd say 3.5/5. the problem there is that everyone probably has a degree of all those traits, they are just in variable amounts.

like I mentioned, I cant say I agree with some old testament stuff and all. i heard once from a christian on youtube who seemed to make more sense than others, that the old testament is more a historical background. I've been thinking, and where does it say that all of the bible is completely true? we just shoved a load of scrolls together that could have said anything. what I do know, is that what jesus said (assuming you believe in him) must be true, so I just follow what he says and what agrees with him.

there is a matter of interpretation in everything. i just try to keep things relevant and on some train of logic. of course, not all can be attributed logically since it is religion, but i think of faith in this case as more of an educated guess rather than blindly trusting to something for no point other than you want to.

I more or less agree with everything else you say, as being valid possibilities, even almost definetly true. its just that they dont necessarily disagree with me. if that is how religion was formed in our minds, then maybe its just a means to an end for god. I've never been inclined to superstition except that i think ghosts can very well be real lol, but pattern recognition is important, its how we learn and manipulate. if we have tricked ourselves into thinking something false, then theres ways to reason out that it is so.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:49 PM #1423
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



Peace,
dave
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:24 PM #1424
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post


Peace,
dave
Well, it say "a god" , not "god" ..... and, as you probably know, there are a lot of types of "gods" ..... :d

..... just as example .....
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