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Old 05-20-2010, 11:26 PM #1329
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Wow, that is about the best explanation I've ever heard for the situation! + rep for that one


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Old 05-21-2010, 02:21 AM #1330
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

while i completely agree with charliebruce, i will not be surprised nor shed a tear if the south park creators get killed.. extremist muslims have more than proved their lack of levity for the situations involving depictions of their prophet... remember just because you have the right to do something, it doesn't make it ok. The whole situation needs to be looked at.


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Old 05-21-2010, 04:03 PM #1331
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I disagree that the SP creators should be stopped from expressing their views - what is the point in having freedom of speech if you can't exercise it in any way you like? I'd like to have the right to criticise what I want - and in a way, their cartoons are (though partially to create controversy) also showing their criticism of the restrictions of Islam and spreading a political message, which should be defensible under law - just as I would like to have the right to question or criticise a government, a law, or anything else in my life. If you take away someone's right to criticise any one group, you then set a precedent to stop people from criticising government, figures of authority, laws and anything else - and that can't really lead to a free, democratic society. Elevating any group beyond critique is tantamount to taking away freedom and democracy, which is part of the message Trey and Matt aim to spread. In dictatorships, one of the first moves is to drive any opposition or public criticism underground (history buffs can give better examples than I can).

Personally, I draw the line at all-out hate speech, or actual incitement of violence (from members of another group onto the criticised - the critic should not expect any recourse, as long as the remarks do not cause actual physical harm to those being criticised) - beyond that, it is up to those being criticised to take it or ignore it. South Park aren't specifically targeting Islam in this - they poke fun at Scientology (Note I don't see anyone defending them here :P ) and Mormons, amongst many, many others.
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Old 05-21-2010, 04:27 PM #1332
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I wonder if the students realize the social significance of being "underfoot" in Middle Eastern culture. This type of "sidewalk" expression is used regularly throughout the University system. I also wonder that even if they were made aware of the significance if they would change anything. It is a social protest that costs very little and requires small effort.

RE: South Park -- ANY time one group "forces" another group to "respect" their beliefs, the world of free thought and expression dies a little bit more.

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Old 05-21-2010, 04:47 PM #1333
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If we allow censorship for the sake of "peacefulness", where does it stop? That's a VERY dangerous path, and one we shouldn't be anywhere near. Freedom is worth more than a little peacefulness.

And the South Park thing I just don't understand. They used an image of Mohammed in a cartoon YEARS ago, and nothing happened. Then suddenly they put Mohammed in a bear costume, and they get death threats and hatred. Heck, Mohammed was included in the opening credits of the show for MANY episodes before the most recent one. We shouldn't be kowtowing to extremists just because of what they might do. We have rights of free expression and speech, including parody. We can parody any religion freely, and South Park has certainly done so without bias, as they have parodied every major religion, multiple times.

And what good is freedom of speech if we're too afraid to use it? Calling out the lunacy of murdering someone over a drawing is a great reason to use any freedom we have available, including free speech.
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Old 05-21-2010, 05:02 PM #1334
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

There is a difference bewteen having the right to do something and having common sense... yeah i have the right to travel to afganistan to make a home made documentary... common sense say no, if i go i will get kid napped by people that are going to behead me.

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Old 05-21-2010, 05:06 PM #1335
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by pullbangdead View Post
If we allow censorship for the sake of "peacefulness", where does it stop? That's a VERY dangerous path, and one we shouldn't be anywhere near. Freedom is worth more than a little peacefulness.

And the South Park thing I just don't understand. They used an image of Mohammed in a cartoon YEARS ago, and nothing happened. Then suddenly they put Mohammed in a bear costume, and they get death threats and hatred. Heck, Mohammed was included in the opening credits of the show for MANY episodes before the most recent one. We shouldn't be kowtowing to extremists just because of what they might do. We have rights of free expression and speech, including parody. We can parody any religion freely, and South Park has certainly done so without bias, as they have parodied every major religion, multiple times.

And what good is freedom of speech if we're too afraid to use it? Calling out the lunacy of murdering someone over a drawing is a great reason to use any freedom we have available, including free speech.
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There is a difference bewteen having the right to do something and having common sense... yeah i have the right to travel to afganistan to make a home made documentary... common sense say no, if i go i will get kid napped by people that are going to behead me.

michael.


If you go back and read the Federalist Papers and the writings of the "fathers" of the US, you will see that not only are we "allowed" to do so, but that we are "expected" to do so. In today's society we view our rights as something we can pick and choose from. The framers of the constitution believed that in order to be a good citizen you must exercise your rights.


As far as "peacefulnes" is concerned, it wasn't even an expectation of normalcy.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. -- Thomas Jefferson

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Old 05-21-2010, 05:08 PM #1336
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by chipdouglas View Post
There is a difference bewteen having the right to do something and having common sense... yeah i have the right to travel to afganistan to make a home made documentary... common sense say no, if i go i will get kid napped by people that are going to behead me.

michael.
What does common sense have to do with this? Common sense says that a drawing, made for parody, shouldn't result in murder. Common sense says that I have the right to say, or draw, whatever I want without someone wanting to murder me.

This isn't about traveling to a warzone and putting yourself in harm's way, this is about making a drawing for parody in a first-world, developed country. Nowhere near the same thing. I have every right to draw whatever I want on my napkin (as long as it doesn't harm others, the "fire in a crowded theater" example), and I shouldn't be afraid of a lunatic wanting to murder me for whatever I draw, whether it be heartfelt or in jest.

Why should artists pander to religious extremists?

-----------------------

Excellent points, Dave. Speech and press are not just rights, but duties.

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Old 05-21-2010, 05:27 PM #1337
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipdouglas View Post
There is a difference bewteen having the right to do something and having common sense... yeah i have the right to travel to afganistan to make a home made documentary... common sense say no, if i go i will get kid napped by people that are going to behead me.

michael.
The analogy is invalid. You are talking about going into someone else's country to do something. A country which does not give the same liberties to its people.

If I go into YOUR house, strip naked in the living room, and dance the Macarena, I would expect to have trouble and you would be right in stopping me.

However, if I did the same thing in MY house, there should me no problem (besides the hideous visual).

Now if YOU came to MY house and tried to stop me from doing so, it would be wrong. If you prevented me from doing so or any of my guests from doing so under threat of force, I would be expected to react with force

Trying to stop me from doing it in my own house because Harvey (the 6-foot, invisible rabbit) doesn't like it, is shear lunacy

Peace,
dave
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Old 05-21-2010, 05:36 PM #1338
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsy View Post
there is something supernatural because someone
also must have started the big bang
Then something must have created that supernatural being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007Revolution View Post
I don't wander around in the streets preaching Islam and shoving it down people's threats
I wonder what Freud would say about this statement...
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Old 05-21-2010, 05:45 PM #1339
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Then something must have created that supernatural being.

Of course, silly. It was the super-supernatural being


I wonder what Freud would say about this statement...
I know, but I'm not allowed to say those words in polite society

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Old 05-21-2010, 05:49 PM #1340
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
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The analogy is invalid. You are talking about going into someone else's country to do something. A country which does not give the same liberties to its people.

If I go into YOUR house, strip naked in the living room, and dance the Macarena, I would expect to have trouble and you would be right in stopping me.

However, if I did the same thing in MY house, there should me no problem (besides the hideous visual).

Now if YOU came to MY house and tried to stop me from doing so, it would be wrong. If you prevented me from doing so or any of my guests from doing so under threat of force, I would be expected to react with force

Trying to stop me from doing it in my own house because Harvey (the 6-foot, invisible rabbit) doesn't like it, is shear lunacy

Peace,
dave
my rant made sense in my head . but the green high lighted part helps me out.... they do not have our same liberties.. and they also do not know boarders... so if our legal liberties infringe upon their moral obligations, we have all seen what they are capable of. and our govenment can't all ways be there to protect us. and I agree about if they come to our home and hurt us we have the right to attack..i don't believe in an eye for an eye. i believe in and eye for life... but it still didn't stop the intial eye ball from getting squashed. And that is what my initial post was about: prevention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pullbangdead View Post
What does common sense have to do with this? Common sense says that a drawing, made for parody, shouldn't result in murder. Common sense says that I have the right to say, or draw, whatever I want without someone wanting to murder me.
Pre 9-11 you would be correct. Your rights have nothing to do with the "wants" of somebody else.

michael...
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:36 PM #1341
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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It's the people drawing on the sidewalk that should be watched closely because they are imposing their negative views on everyone else in public.
I know. We need to keep a close eye on these crazy sidewalk vandals:


Get me outta' here!


Nutty Fisherman is just fishing for compliments.


And this one depicts the fate of Muslim sinners who got busted for Wrongfully consuming the property of an orphan and Persistently missing Friday Prayers without any excuse
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Old 05-21-2010, 08:49 PM #1342
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 05-21-2010, 09:17 PM #1343
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007Revolution View Post
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.
Freud believed that most of the problems in the human mind had to do with suppressed ***ual urges (and the rejection of the mother love we all felt) If you think of your statement with ***ual innuendo in mind, you will see the joke.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007Revolution View Post
Not sure I understand what analogy the 6-foot rabbit is supposed to be. lol I guess it just comes down to surely there must be a better way to exercise your rights to free speech without showing disrespect to others. There a lot of things we are technically allowed to do but don't out of respect for others.
In my world, one imaginary friend is just as good as any other imaginary friend.

The cultural reference comes from an old movie

Harvey (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peace,
dave
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:48 PM #1344
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

He possibly also meant the typo of "threat" as a Freudian slip - (Or, this was his only meaning - and you just have a dirty mind Dave )
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