Old 11-13-2009, 07:51 AM #865
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Crazy Jay View Post
studied most of the worlds religions. What a horrible thing to go threw. So many ideals and interpretations...

Is that why you don't believe in a god anymore?
No. The other way 'round.

My crisis of faith is what led me to study the religions.

It was after studying them that I realized that we had created our gods in our own image. (and there are more "gods" out there than you can easily imagine)

Peace,
dave


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Old 11-13-2009, 07:56 AM #866
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Have you ever heard of the following idea...?

Gods right to rule over the universe was in question and things are the way they are now to determine if everything would be okay without him.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:29 AM #867
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have to ask, Jay, whether you expect to go to Heaven, or be granted eternal life? Do you believe that your religion is the "true" one? If so, why? So far I have only seen a few (flawed) reasons for the idea that there "must be some power", but I have yet to see any basis for you choosing one religion over another.. what makes the interpretation you have chosen more true than the thousands of others?

Seb
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Old 11-13-2009, 09:52 AM #868
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Jaseth View Post
I have to ask, Jay, whether you expect to go to Heaven, or be granted eternal life? Do you believe that your religion is the "true" one? If so, why? So far I have only seen a few (flawed) reasons for the idea that there "must be some power", but I have yet to see any basis for you choosing one religion over another.. what makes the interpretation you have chosen more true than the thousands of others?

Seb
I'd love to answer your questions. Thats going to be hard on here.

The bible tells that the only people going to heaven are the anointed (144,000 to be precise). Their job is to resurrect the people who have died except the ones who committed the unforgivable sin. Ask me later what that is.

Reading about the prophecies located everywhere in the bible is solid proof. Let me give you an example. A scripture says that there will be false Christs after Jesus ascends back to Heaven when his sacrifice has been made. This was written before Jesus came down to earth.
Its been said that the bible was written by man and man alone. If that were true.. then the man who wrote that scripture sure was lucky at guessing the name of this so called son of god... not to mention the lucky guess that there will be false ones to follow in the last days. The last days started in 1914! How can a man, a simple man, thousands of years back, foretell such events with clarity? It could only be from someone who knows what will happen. Someone with abilities far more than that of a human. The bible is full of these prophecies. Ah but its not the only evidence that I was taught.

Wow so much to talk about. I haven't done this in years, I hope I can do this.
I never was a good speaker. I never felt I should be the one to inform. I need to get some sleep right now.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:20 PM #869
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

"The bible tells . . . . ."

That is why nothing will ever be settled here. "The bible" that he believes is the ineffable word of god, is neither the "word of god", nor is it the only holy scripture available.

When one begins with the premise that a text, any text, that has been re-written, multiple times, by different "committees" of MEN, at different times in history, with different agendas is somehow still the actual word of anyone or anything other than those MEN, then reason goes out the window.

One cannot argue with the ACTUAL WORDS of god, now can one?

Unfortunately, anything that is "proven" by its own internal measures, is invalid.

If it was THE ONLY word of god, then it might carry some weight. However, not only is it not the only "word of god" available, it is not even the only one used by different denominations of the same group.

If the word of god was written and re-written by MEN and there are other, very different, words of god purported to be the same thing, then how can any one be THE word of god? Is god so impotent that he/she cannot even show the world the truth?

It makes us feel special to be one of "the chosen few" so most religions reward the believer and simply banish the infidel to some purgatory or hell. To the Witnesses' credit, at least they allow the unbeliever (with a few exceptions) the simple cessation of existence instead of eternal damnation.

However, only the chosen few (the crowd) get to enjoy the millennium. Of course even this is not eternity (a wholly unacceptable concept to the human brain) so there will be a second chance at the end of even that. At that time the unbeliever gets one more chance to take in knowledge. Then actual eternal life, or eternal death, or the simple cessation of existence is dolled out. The concept of the nature of eternal life is a bit vague, but you can't have everything, now can you?

I have written this again and again.

Believe what you believe. Accept your belief. Feel good about it. It should not be necessary for me to believe it as well in order for you to be happy with it.

This notion that "if I only understood it I would believe", is nonsense. I usually understand their religion better than they do. I have read their text(s). Most religious zealots have only read what they were told to read by some authority figure and/or simply wait for one of their leaders to tell them what it says. Real study is hard wok and people are lazy. And, unfortunately, god only speaks to a very select group of individuals in the greater group.

Peace,
dave

P.S. Incidentally, the gospels were all written between 50-70 years AFTER the resurrection.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:45 PM #870
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
"The bible tells . . . . ."

That is why nothing will ever be settled here. "The bible" that he believes is the ineffable word of god, is neither the "word of god", nor is it the only holy scripture available.

When one begins with the premise that a text, any text, that has been re-written, multiple times, by different "committees" of MEN, at different times in history, with different agendas is somehow still the actual word of anyone or anything other than those MEN, then reason goes out the window.

One cannot argue with the ACTUAL WORDS of god, now can one?

Unfortunately, anything that is "proven" by its own internal measures, is invalid.

If it was THE ONLY word of god, then it might carry some weight. However, not only is it not the only "word of god" available, it is not even the only one used by different denominations of the same group.

If the word of god was written and re-written by MEN and there are other, very different, words of god purported to be the same thing, then how can any one be THE word of god? Is god so impotent that he/she cannot even show the world the truth?

It makes us feel special to be one of "the chosen few" so most religions reward the believer and simply banish the infidel to some purgatory or hell. To the Witnesses' credit, at least they allow the unbeliever (with a few exceptions) the simple cessation of existence instead of eternal damnation.

However, only the chosen few (the crowd) get to enjoy the millennium. Of course even this is not eternity (a wholly unacceptable concept to the human brain) so there will be a second chance at the end of even that. At that time the unbeliever gets one more chance to take in knowledge. Then actual eternal life, or eternal death, or the simple cessation of existence is dolled out. The concept of the nature of eternal life is a bit vague, but you can't have everything, now can you?

I have written this again and again.

Believe what you believe. Accept your belief. Feel good about it. It should not be necessary for me to believe it as well in order for you to be happy with it.

This notion that "if I only understood it I would believe", is nonsense. I usually understand their religion better than they do. I have read their text(s). Most religious zealots have only read what they were told to read by some authority figure and/or simply wait for one of their leaders to tell them what it says. Real study is hard wok and people are lazy. And, unfortunately, god only speaks to a very select group of individuals in the greater group.

Peace,
dave

P.S. Incidentally, the gospels were all written between 50-70 years AFTER the resurrection.


Dave, have you ever watched Zeitgeist? Zeitgeist - The Movie

The first 25 minutes explain it all thoroughly, it's amazing. I've studied the three major religions in this era and still I wouldn't be able to put it as well as these guys did.

@CJ: You say proof. Prove it then. If you can prove me that your god is real (and that the other 90.000 gods aren't), I'll believe in it.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:52 PM #871
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
"The bible tells . . . . ."

That is why nothing will ever be settled here. "The bible" that he believes is the ineffable word of god, is neither the "word of god", nor is it the only holy scripture available.

When one begins with the premise that a text, any text, that has been re-written, multiple times, by different "committees" of MEN, at different times in history, with different agendas is somehow still the actual word of anyone or anything other than those MEN, then reason goes out the window.

One cannot argue with the ACTUAL WORDS of god, now can one?

Unfortunately, anything that is "proven" by its own internal measures, is invalid.

If it was THE ONLY word of god, then it might carry some weight. However, not only is it not the only "word of god" available, it is not even the only one used by different denominations of the same group.

If the word of god was written and re-written by MEN and there are other, very different, words of god purported to be the same thing, then how can any one be THE word of god? Is god so impotent that he/she cannot even show the world the truth?

It makes us feel special to be one of "the chosen few" so most religions reward the believer and simply banish the infidel to some purgatory or hell. To the Witnesses' credit, at least they allow the unbeliever (with a few exceptions) the simple cessation of existence instead of eternal damnation.

However, only the chosen few (the crowd) get to enjoy the millennium. Of course even this is not eternity (a wholly unacceptable concept to the human brain) so there will be a second chance at the end of even that. At that time the unbeliever gets one more chance to take in knowledge. Then actual eternal life, or eternal death, or the simple cessation of existence is dolled out. The concept of the nature of eternal life is a bit vague, but you can't have everything, now can you?

I have written this again and again.

Believe what you believe. Accept your belief. Feel good about it. It should not be necessary for me to believe it as well in order for you to be happy with it.

This notion that "if I only understood it I would believe", is nonsense. I usually understand their religion better than they do. I have read their text(s). Most religious zealots have only read what they were told to read by some authority figure and/or simply wait for one of their leaders to tell them what it says. Real study is hard wok and people are lazy. And, unfortunately, god only speaks to a very select group of individuals in the greater group.

Peace,
dave

P.S. Incidentally, the gospels were all written between 50-70 years AFTER the resurrection.

Yes! 50 - 70 Years... not thousands like Plato, or Aristotle. All of those who actually wrote the gospels down either were in direct contact with Jesus at some point in their life, or were people who had direct relations with those who were around Jesus, (Timothy for Example)

We have 7 copies of Plato's works, 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, and over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone, all of which say the very same things. No contradictions. There have been alternative spellings for words found amongst them, but the meanings stay in tact. The men who copied the Bible did it well.

Yes there are scripts out there that describe Biblical events, (Like Thomas), and no one wanted to put it in as part of the Bible simple because it was not known if the author could be trusted. The book doesn't contradict the Bible, but it still didn't make it into the lineup because the other books and letters that were to be added to the Bible, were known and trusted already.

The Bible has always been, and still is the most distributed, and most widely influential, and popular book of all time.

Now, there are plenty more reasons to be able to trust the Bible for what it is, but personally that has never quite cut it for me. I can told about who wrote the Bible, how and when and how many copies we have all day long. But what proves the existence of a Creator for me, (a sovereign Creator, that just happpens to line up with how the Bible describes him to be) is the undeniable need for design, in the universe we live in. There are way too many "constants" and characteristics that have just "fallen" into place. The chances of chance ruling the kind of universe we live in, is one in 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000. Thats like standing on the moon, and throwing a dart towards the Earth, that will land on a target that 1/3,000,000,000,000,000,000 ths, of an inch wide.

The "odds" for chance being the ruler of the universe I live, are looking thin.
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:04 PM #872
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
in direct contact with Jesus at some point in their life
Jesus didn't exist. Snap out of it.


Quote:
Now, there are plenty more reasons to be able to trust the Bible for what it is
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword: their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
— Hosea 13:16

E’phraim’s glory shall fly away like a bird — no birth, no pregnancy, no conception! Even if they bring up children, I will bereave them till none is left. Woe to them when I depart from them!
— Hosea 9:11-12, RSV

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
----- Leviticus 20:10

“So the Sovereign LORD says: "I will pour out my terrible fury on this place. Its people, animals, trees, and crops will be consumed by the unquenchable fire of my anger." ---- Jeremiah 7:20 NLT

All clean birds you may eat. But these you shall not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, the red kite, the falcon, and the kite after their kinds; every raven after its kind; the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the seagull, and the hawk after their kinds; the little owl, the screech owl, the white owl, the jackdaw, the carrion vulture, the fisher owl, the stork, the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe and the bat. (NOT a Bird) Also every creeping thing that flies is unclean for you; they shall not be eaten. You may eat all clean birds.
---- Deuteronomy 14:3-21

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
— Leviticus 20:9

Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.
— Proverbs 20:30

“If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.” ---- Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT

“Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence,” ---- Matthew 4:8 NAB (LOL, Flat Earth!)

And so on...


Quote:
the undeniable need for design, in the universe we live in. There are way too many "constants" and characteristics that have just "fallen" into place. The chances of chance ruling the kind of universe we live in, is one in 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000. Thats like standing on the moon, and throwing a dart towards the Earth, that will land on a target that 1/3,000,000,000,000,000,000 ths, of an inch wide.
Another example of people talking about what they don't understand. Meatball, I'm pretty sure you've never studied enough about these topics to actually understand why those things happened. Then you wouldn't say that it "just happened".
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:19 PM #873
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The 50-70 years citation was a direct contradiction of yet another "proof" that the bible was the TRUTH. Then you use it to show that it proves that the bible is the TRUTH. If you cannot see the inherent fallacy there, you are simply refusing to see it. Both of you are "Christians." How can both views be TRUE?

Each denomination believes that their interpretation (and version) of the text is correct. If they are all different and all TRUE, then what is to be believed?

In addition, there are much older texts that tell a completely different story. Your tunnel vision is awesome. Your unwavering belief that there are no contradictions or ommissions in the gospels is befuddling at best. It is obvious that you have not studied them. Biblical scholars try to understand the contradictions , NOT deny them.

However, you have the right to believe it. You even have the right to tell me about it. Please keep in mind that I have the right to disagree.

You are still trying to prove your faith. Stop trying to prove it and just accept it. If you cannot KNOW through your faith, the you have failed at what Jesus asked you to do. NOWHERE in the gospels does Jesus tell or even ask you to "prove" the truth of your beliefs to others. He asks you to ACCEPT his Father's gift to you through him.

Accept the gift or cheapen it.

Peace,
dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Yes! 50 - 70 Years... not thousands like Plato, or Aristotle. All of those who actually wrote the gospels down either were in direct contact with Jesus at some point in their life, or were people who had direct relations with those who were around Jesus, (Timothy for Example)

We have 7 copies of Plato's works, 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, and over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone, all of which say the very same things. No contradictions. There have been alternative spellings for words found amongst them, but the meanings stay in tact. The men who copied the Bible did it well.

Yes there are scripts out there that describe Biblical events, (Like Thomas), and no one wanted to put it in as part of the Bible simple because it was not known if the author could be trusted. The book doesn't contradict the Bible, but it still didn't make it into the lineup because the other books and letters that were to be added to the Bible, were known and trusted already.

The Bible has always been, and still is the most distributed, and most widely influential, and popular book of all time.

Now, there are plenty more reasons to be able to trust the Bible for what it is, but personally that has never quite cut it for me. I can told about who wrote the Bible, how and when and how many copies we have all day long. But what proves the existence of a Creator for me, (a sovereign Creator, that just happpens to line up with how the Bible describes him to be) is the undeniable need for design, in the universe we live in. There are way too many "constants" and characteristics that have just "fallen" into place. The chances of chance ruling the kind of universe we live in, is one in 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000. Thats like standing on the moon, and throwing a dart towards the Earth, that will land on a target that 1/3,000,000,000,000,000,000 ths, of an inch wide.

The "odds" for chance being the ruler of the universe I live, are looking thin.
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Old 11-13-2009, 03:20 PM #874
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 11-13-2009, 03:57 PM #875
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Yes! 50 - 70 Years... not thousands like Plato, or Aristotle. All of those who actually wrote the gospels down either were in direct contact with Jesus at some point in their life, or were people who had direct relations with those who were around Jesus, (Timothy for Example)

We have 7 copies of Plato's works, 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, and over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone, all of which say the very same things. No contradictions. There have been alternative spellings for words found amongst them, but the meanings stay in tact. The men who copied the Bible did it well.

Yes there are scripts out there that describe Biblical events, (Like Thomas), and no one wanted to put it in as part of the Bible simple because it was not known if the author could be trusted. The book doesn't contradict the Bible, but it still didn't make it into the lineup because the other books and letters that were to be added to the Bible, were known and trusted already.

The Bible has always been, and still is the most distributed, and most widely influential, and popular book of all time.

Now, there are plenty more reasons to be able to trust the Bible for what it is, but personally that has never quite cut it for me. I can told about who wrote the Bible, how and when and how many copies we have all day long. But what proves the existence of a Creator for me, (a sovereign Creator, that just happpens to line up with how the Bible describes him to be) is the undeniable need for design, in the universe we live in. There are way too many "constants" and characteristics that have just "fallen" into place. The chances of chance ruling the kind of universe we live in, is one in 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000. Thats like standing on the moon, and throwing a dart towards the Earth, that will land on a target that 1/3,000,000,000,000,000,000 ths, of an inch wide.

The "odds" for chance being the ruler of the universe I live, are looking thin.
Wow, seriously?

So many things wrong here....
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:01 PM #876
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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If you think that nothing goes on behind the publics knowledge then maybe its best that you don't know. I mean its not like the world is full of mad scientists
Wait, now we're talking about Illuminati or men controlling the world? What happened to religion? To me, talking about people being blind to the stuff behind the scenes in a RELIGION thread means you are referring to, you know, RELIGION. If you weren't talking about the god behind the scenes, when what the heck were you talking about?
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Old 11-13-2009, 05:43 PM #877
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I do not have a bit of problem leaving people to believe whatever they want to believe (as long as they are not hurting others in the name of that belief).
Does wasting their entire life of Sundays fall under the "hurting them" category?

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I wanted to let you know that the witnesses are not a religious group.
From Dictionary.com:

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Je·ho·vah's Witness (jĭ-hō'vəz)
n. A member of a religious denomination founded in the United States during the late 19th century in which active evangelism is practiced, the imminent approach of the millennium is preached, and war and organized governmental authority in matters of conscience are strongly opposed.
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what proves the existence of a Creator for me, (a sovereign Creator, that just happpens to line up with how the Bible describes him to be) is the undeniable need for design, in the universe we live in. There are way too many "constants" and characteristics that have just "fallen" into place.
Its the "X is complicated, therefore someone must have designed it" argument. But a being that designed something as complicated as the universe MUST be complicated himself. Lets go back to your original argument, and fill in for X. "God is complicated, therefore someone must have designed him." And it just becomes one ridiculous loop ad infinitum.
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:07 PM #878
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Or we could go off on a tangent, and discuss the whole concept of false prophets:

"Derren Brown - Messiah" (might be on YouTube but is blocked over here, if you need just PM and I'll upload the clips) was a program shown over here in the UK, and it is where Derren flies over to the US, and pretends to be various "paranormal" preachers, or experts in similar fields. In these he uses little more than psychological tricks to achieve these effects. The 2 I enjoyed most were "radical conversion" (taking select members of a group and giving them an overwhelming religious sensation) and "psychic" readings to a group of people. All the techniques he used were purely psychological, but the participants were drawn into the belief system he created. Another couple of reasons I don't believe in gods are confirmation bias, and the way that religion has adjusted its belief to fit with proofs and attitudes over the years - if it has to redefine its definition of the Universe because of Galileo, and creation because of Darwin, what else has it made up along the way? I can hardly be accused of not knowing anything about religion, since my current school is "christian" (to a certain extent, anyway), and I have had some form of religious education since about 8.
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:14 PM #879
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Wow, seriously?

So many things wrong here....
He's basically just parroting sound bites now.

The really sad thing is, that he probably thinks that he constructed an argument.

Peace,
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Old 11-13-2009, 06:56 PM #880
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

pullbangdead, whats wrong?

Dave, what contradictions? I hear people accuse the Bible of them often, but they can never present me with one. But I know you can, so what do you have for me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post

From Dictionary.com:





Its the "X is complicated, therefore someone must have designed it" argument. But a being that designed something as complicated as the universe MUST be complicated himself. Lets go back to your original argument, and fill in for X. "God is complicated, therefore someone must have designed him." And it just becomes one ridiculous loop ad infinitum.
There is no loop. There MUST be an ultimate entity eventually. The only logical place to stop is with a sovereign creator. He says himself, I am, always have been, and always will be. He had no beginning. He is not bound by time, he created time!

What I'm saying is, is that since X, Y, Z, AA, BB, CC are all complex, happen to work with each other, and just so happen to be arranged and set in the perfect combination for life to exist at all anywhere in the universe.

Familiar with the cosmological constant? If it were ANY different, the energy density of space- time would not allow matter to come together in any sense to where it could build complex molecules- such as proteins. For me, its that easy. For anyone else, if that doesn't seem to make you wonder then thats just fine. For those of you who think I'm here to argue, stop right there. I'm presenting what I know about what I believe and why I do. You all have been trying to point out my words as something like a bad point, or a terrible argument. I'm not here to argue. Anyone can sit around on the internet all day and argue about this stuff theologically, and philosophically. I'm not here for that. You all have different ideas and points of view, which I too want to present.

If I may ask a fair question, would you please answer in all honesty?

What IS Atheism to you?

I have to wonder because to be agnostic, means "no knowledge", or you don't know what to think. To atheist means "No God". So how does one confidently proclaim that he KNOWS that there is no God? If you are a man, and if you say that you know there is no God, aren't you also in a sense saying that you actually know everything? Or are better than the average man who claims he doesn't know? I know you can ask the same thing of me, but I've already presented my case for whatever its worth.

Is that what it means to you guys as Atheists? Or does it mean something completely different? What is it?
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