Old 08-19-2009, 05:36 AM #705
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nikokapo View Post
I demand more quotes.
Niko if you read it says the ice was absolutely clear. And hmm I don't know would everyone know what ice was if ice doesn't form there. The ice results from chemical reaction not temperature


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Old 08-19-2009, 07:12 AM #706
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Please explain how it is evidence against God's existence.
If good things only happened to good people and bad things only happened to bad people, that would point to the existence of a diety. This however is not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Why place the tree of knowledge in the garden? Why allow Eve to eat the fruit? Why allow Adam to be tempted into eating the fruit by Eve?
There's just one problem with that whole story, by the way. How could Adam and Eve have been expected to comprehend the implications of their action if, prior to their indiscretion, they had no concept of wrong, evil, punishment, suffering, pain, and death? Even if God had been successful in adequately explaining all of these concepts and the distinction between right and wrong to them beforehand, this means that he would had to have given them the knowledge of good and evil anyway, which turns the entire story into one big ridiculous farce.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:53 AM #707
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
There's just one problem with that whole story, by the way. How could Adam and Eve have been expected to comprehend the implications of their action if, prior to their indiscretion, they had no concept of wrong, evil, punishment, suffering, pain, and death? Even if God had been successful in adequately explaining all of these concepts and the distinction between right and wrong to them beforehand, this means that he would had to have given them the knowledge of good and evil anyway, which turns the entire story into one big ridiculous farce.
Milk before meat, Cyparagon

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Old 08-19-2009, 02:14 PM #708
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by themandalorian View Post
Niko if you read it says the ice was absolutely clear. And hmm I don't know would everyone know what ice was if ice doesn't form there. The ice results from chemical reaction not temperature
What did you just say?



IF that ice was 100% clear (which I doubt) it wouldn't make up for the fact that people could know what ice was. And where are we talking it happened? I'm sure that in that zone ice HAPPENS

Also...chemical reaction? Are you serious?
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:06 PM #709
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by daguin View Post
The entire universe was created for man -- Even the angels (which were somehow already in existence long before man came along) were created for man

Psalm 147:11(NASB)
11 The LORD favors those who fear Him, Those who wait for His lovingkindness
Here is the purpose of God's creation .....man. Obedient man. It was only man who was "created in the image of God" (Gen. 1:27). All other things were created for man's use and control. Psalm 8:6-8 tells us:
Psalm 8:6-8(NASB)
6 Thou dost make him to rule over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
This helps us to see God's purpose. The entire universe was intended by God to be used by man. The Scriptures tell us that even Angels were created for man, Hebrews 1:14:
Heb. 1:14(NASB)
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?



You also attempt to make the point that god has "given us a chance" by not wiping us out. How about a different approach? How about if the all powerful being simply "fixes" the mistake and re-creates us in such a way that we will bring him pleasure forever, instead of setting us up to fail?

How about if ANY place along the road to sin (starting with the Morning Star's rebellion) he simply "fixes" the problem? Why allow Lucifer to become Satan? Why allow Adam to feel lonely? Why give Satan free reign? Why place the tree of knowledge in the garden? Why allow Eve to eat the fruit? Why allow Adam to be tempted into eating the fruit by Eve?

At any one of those junctures, god could have set things right to prevent his preciouis creation from suffering in the pit for eternity. . . . . and yet he allowed all of these conditions to occur so that the majority of his precious creations would fail and suffer forever.

It is a mystery, ain't it?

Here's a little test to see if you have at least thought through your concept of god

Battleground God

Also, here is one that will help you choose the "right" god for you

The Do-It-Yourself Deity

If things don't work out so well with your current god, feel free to choose another

Godchecker.com - Your Guide To The Gods. Mythology with a twist!

Beware of promises of life where death is a prerequisite



Peace,
dave
Dave,
I see your point quite well. Thank you for using scripture to back it up as well!

However, none of those passages say that man is the only soul- bearing thing able to receive salvation. Certainly, the passages point out that we were the ones made in his image. But who is to say that there are other soul- bearing beings out there, that are serviced by the Angels since they too, might receive Salvation? Its clear that nobody here knows, nor can say that they do.

I also see your point about why God wouldn't remove sin from the world.

This has troubled many believers, because it has to do with the differences between predestination, and free will. Which I might point out are two entirely separate ideas. Both are mentioned in the Bible as well.

I believe that if God had created man as a flawless, praise giving robot, then there would be no point to our existence. Praise from robots designed to do so means nothing.

That's why God gave us a free will. A freely decided choice from us, to praise, and follow God means a heck of a lot more. We fell because of our free will, and we can also be saved BECAUSE of our free will, not BY it.

The Bible says that even before we were born, he predestined us. It doesn't at all mean that we can't decide things during our lifetime, it simply means that God knows exactly who will, and who will not end up accepting him as the only way to salvation.

If we were mindless, will-less, praise giving beings that became tainted, then I too, would wonder why God didn't wipe us out and start over again.

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
If good things only happened to good people and bad things only happened to bad people, that would point to the existence of a diety. This however is not the case.



There's just one problem with that whole story, by the way. How could Adam and Eve have been expected to comprehend the implications of their action if, prior to their indiscretion, they had no concept of wrong, evil, punishment, suffering, pain, and death? Even if God had been successful in adequately explaining all of these concepts and the distinction between right and wrong to them beforehand, this means that he would had to have given them the knowledge of good and evil anyway, which turns the entire story into one big ridiculous farce.
Cyparagon,

Please explain HOW it points to the existence of a deity. Your point is being made quite vaguely, and is still unclear. Where is it written, that God allows only good things to happen to good people?

They did in fact have warning, and knew the consequences of eating from the tree.

God warned Adam,

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

The serpent is what told Eve just the opposite.

If Adam and Eve were created so ignorant, to not understand the differences between good and evil, God would not have place that tree in the garden.

Good thoughts.. good thoughts indeed Cyparagon.

Tyler
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:54 PM #710
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Meatball... nice to have yet another Christian united in doctrine


I want to point out in some of the later pages... my pouring out of the free moral agent... I'm glad you posted on this matter it seems to edify the fact I was stating before on the same subject.
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Old 08-19-2009, 05:21 PM #711
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
'It makes me nauseous to think that children are taught that the most important part of their life is auditioning for the next one. This is truly a poisonous concept that inevitably leads to the degradation of our current world as a transit life - a 'vale of tears' - that we must put up with momentarily until our ticket is clipped and we are rescued from this miserable existence of trial and temptation.
In stark contrast, atheists in general believe this to be our one and only life, a view which, I can assure you, makes life precious beyond all value'
Very well said, precisely my thoughts as well. This actually brings up a very important point for all religions that profess an "afterlife":

"How is the promise of a better life after death empty?" asked Meatball a few posts back... Well, if the "afterlife" means an eternity of either bliss or torture, then this life becomes totally and utterly meaningless except as an "admission test". Really, how can one compare the vastness of the Universe to a little grain of sand on the beach? And that difference would be dwarfed by the comparison between a mere 50, 70, 100 years and infinity. How can one care the least bit for a few decades when on the other hand stands an infinite amount of time?

If you accept the idea of an afterlife, then indeed the best thing that can happen to any believer is to die. Unless they're atheists of course, but that's their problem. So why then are Christians afraid of death? Why do they go to the hospital when sick? Why cry at the passing of loved ones? Frankly, I always found that perplexing -- you have a priest boasting how the deceased will join the angels in heaven, yet everyone is crying their hearts out. Do people mourn when loved ones leave on pleasure cruises, with the promise of joining them soon? I think this clearly shows that deep inside, nobody actually believes in any of the afterlife myths, they realize that death is a terrible tragedy with no "workaround"... otherwise we'd have huge parties instead of funerals.

It's important to note how all major religions are aware of this loophole, so they made stark provisions against suicide -- unfortunately some cults or extremist groups forget those provisions, and then we see the devastating effects; but those are just people following their doctrine of "better life after death" to it's logical conclusion... Horrible indeed.

To change to a more happy mood,
@Daguin I enjoyed those links, I remember taking the TPM test some years ago and incurring a few hits, this time I only got one "direct hit" (which I would argue is a matter of discussion, as they seem to agree as well in their FAQ), anyway thanks! I also enjoyed this quote from the godchecker site:
"There are so many different views of the One True God, it sometimes seems to us that all those schisms and sects are really a desperate yearning for the good old days of polytheism. Which is probably the ultimate irony".
Would you happen to know where the "beware of promises of life" quote originated? I was only able to trace it to the "Skeptic Tank" but no definitive answer, I would guess it is a rephrasing of a longer or more convoluted statement, and it would be nice to know how it came to pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
There's just one problem with that whole story, by the way. How could Adam and Eve have been expected to comprehend the implications of their action if, prior to their indiscretion, they had no concept of wrong, evil, punishment, suffering, pain, and death? Even if God had been successful in adequately explaining all of these concepts and the distinction between right and wrong to them beforehand, this means that he would had to have given them the knowledge of good and evil anyway, which turns the entire story into one big ridiculous farce.
Again, very well stated! I have a feeling the answer will have to do with "free will". But there is a big problem with that: free will without adequate and accurate knowledge is irrelevant! In order to make the right choice, one needs all the data beforehand -- in other words, free will only goes as far as one's information.

Let's take this hypothetical scenario: you are put in a room with two buttons on a panel, and are told that one button will kill five human beings, the other will set them free. Which button do you press? Most normal people wouldn't wish harm to a bunch of complete strangers, so you would probably set them free. Then you are told that the five humans are some of the most hideous dictators of all time, and by pressing the button you will be able to simply "take" them out of existence as if they were never born. What would you do now? Of course, most would gladly press the "kill" button and save the lives of millions. But it's not over yet; now you are told that, since the world never knew those hideous dictators, it never grew the means to defend freedom and justice against propaganda and tyranny. So when we make first contact with an alien species, they easily enslave and torture the whole human race for a thousand years. This could go on and on and on, the buttons in front of you are always the same, the choice is always yours, yet it changes radically as you get more information...

When it comes to the real world, goody-god expects us to make the most important choices of all, the ones regarding our destinies, without any knowledge, without as much as a hint in the right direction (and no, ancient texts full of holes don't count). So how could that be deemed "free will"? And how could a just god punish someone simply for interpreting the very debatable "evidence" in a different way?

I just noticed Meatball posted a second ago... just want to say, I like the way you make your points Meatball, it shows a willingness to discuss which is always a good thing! I will leave Cyparagon to answer regarding bad things happening to good people, however, I hope you won't mind me taking on the subject I've touched upon above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
They did in fact have warning, and knew the consequences of eating from the tree.
God warned Adam,
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
The serpent is what told Eve just the opposite.
If Adam and Eve were created so ignorant, to not understand the differences between good and evil, God would not have place that tree in the garden.
Ok, let's see:
1. Nowhere in Gen does God say that by eating from the tree one would commit an offence, it just says "do not eat or you'll surely die". So when they disobey, it can be argued that they were only risking their own lives; God never told them they'd be cursing whole generations and billions upon billions of souls. Yet of course, God knew of it beforehand.
2. The Serpent is here actually more truthful than God. It doesn't lie one bit -- they actually don't die after eating the fruit, and they do get the knowledge. So the serpent is truthful and gets the shaft, while God is a proven liar and must be worshipped. Huh?!
3. Adam and Eve were created ignorant, which is evident when you get to Gen 3:7 and their eyes "were opened". How can you deny the very text? One can't have their eyes opened unless they were closed before, which implies lack of knowledge, therefore lack of good and evil, therefore they would've been unable to judge the correctness of their actions. For all intents and purposes, A&E where innocent children. Do we punish our children when they make mistakes? Do we banish them from our homes and force them to live a life of misery? No. Yet God is so much better, eh?

On a lighter note, maybe you know this exquisite animation by Ruairi Robinson, I think it presents a nice tangent on the discussion:
Fifty Percent Grey

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Old 08-19-2009, 05:34 PM #712
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

mgc8=

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Old 08-19-2009, 06:04 PM #713
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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mgc8= m=my g=God c=cre 8=ate
Hmm... Why not "mechanical general construct 8" ?
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:21 PM #714
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc8 View Post
Very well said, precisely my thoughts as well. This actually brings up a very important point for all religions that profess an "afterlife":

"How is the promise of a better life after death empty?" asked Meatball a few posts back... Well, if the "afterlife" means an eternity of either bliss or torture, then this life becomes totally and utterly meaningless except as an "admission test". Really, how can one compare the vastness of the Universe to a little grain of sand on the beach? And that difference would be dwarfed by the comparison between a mere 50, 70, 100 years and infinity. How can one care the least bit for a few decades when on the other hand stands an infinite amount of time?

If you accept the idea of an afterlife, then indeed the best thing that can happen to any believer is to die. Unless they're atheists of course, but that's their problem. So why then are Christians afraid of death? Why do they go to the hospital when sick? Why cry at the passing of loved ones? Frankly, I always found that perplexing -- you have a priest boasting how the deceased will join the angels in heaven, yet everyone is crying their hearts out. Do people mourn when loved ones leave on pleasure cruises, with the promise of joining them soon? I think this clearly shows that deep inside, nobody actually believes in any of the afterlife myths, they realize that death is a terrible tragedy with no "workaround"... otherwise we'd have huge parties instead of funerals.

It's important to note how all major religions are aware of this loophole, so they made stark provisions against suicide -- unfortunately some cults or extremist groups forget those provisions, and then we see the devastating effects; but those are just people following their doctrine of "better life after death" to it's logical conclusion... Horrible indeed.

To change to a more happy mood,
@Daguin I enjoyed those links, I remember taking the TPM test some years ago and incurring a few hits, this time I only got one "direct hit" (which I would argue is a matter of discussion, as they seem to agree as well in their FAQ), anyway thanks! I also enjoyed this quote from the godchecker site:
"There are so many different views of the One True God, it sometimes seems to us that all those schisms and sects are really a desperate yearning for the good old days of polytheism. Which is probably the ultimate irony".
Would you happen to know where the "beware of promises of life" quote originated? I was only able to trace it to the "Skeptic Tank" but no definitive answer, I would guess it is a rephrasing of a longer or more convoluted statement, and it would be nice to know how it came to pass.



Again, very well stated! I have a feeling the answer will have to do with "free will". But there is a big problem with that: free will without adequate and accurate knowledge is irrelevant! In order to make the right choice, one needs all the data beforehand -- in other words, free will only goes as far as one's information.

Let's take this hypothetical scenario: you are put in a room with two buttons on a panel, and are told that one button will kill five human beings, the other will set them free. Which button do you press? Most normal people wouldn't wish harm to a bunch of complete strangers, so you would probably set them free. Then you are told that the five humans are some of the most hideous dictators of all time, and by pressing the button you will be able to simply "take" them out of existence as if they were never born. What would you do now? Of course, most would gladly press the "kill" button and save the lives of millions. But it's not over yet; now you are told that, since the world never knew those hideous dictators, it never grew the means to defend freedom and justice against propaganda and tyranny. So when we make first contact with an alien species, they easily enslave and torture the whole human race for a thousand years. This could go on and on and on, the buttons in front of you are always the same, the choice is always yours, yet it changes radically as you get more information...

When it comes to the real world, goody-god expects us to make the most important choices of all, the ones regarding our destinies, without any knowledge, without as much as a hint in the right direction (and no, ancient texts full of holes don't count). So how could that be deemed "free will"? And how could a just god punish someone simply for interpreting the very debatable "evidence" in a different way?

I just noticed Meatball posted a second ago... just want to say, I like the way you make your points Meatball, it shows a willingness to discuss which is always a good thing! I will leave Cyparagon to answer regarding bad things happening to good people, however, I hope you won't mind me taking on the subject I've touched upon above:



Ok, let's see:
1. Nowhere in Gen does God say that by eating from the tree one would commit an offence, it just says "do not eat or you'll surely die". So when they disobey, it can be argued that they were only risking their own lives; God never told them they'd be cursing whole generations and billions upon billions of souls. Yet of course, God knew of it beforehand.
2. The Serpent is here actually more truthful than God. It doesn't lie one bit -- they actually don't die after eating the fruit, and they do get the knowledge. So the serpent is truthful and gets the shaft, while God is a proven liar and must be worshipped. Huh?!
3. Adam and Eve were created ignorant, which is evident when you get to Gen 3:7 and their eyes "were opened". How can you deny the very text? One can't have their eyes opened unless they were closed before, which implies lack of knowledge, therefore lack of good and evil, therefore they would've been unable to judge the correctness of their actions. For all intents and purposes, A&E where innocent children. Do we punish our children when they make mistakes? Do we banish them from our homes and force them to live a life of misery? No. Yet God is so much better, eh?

On a lighter note, maybe you know this exquisite animation by Ruairi Robinson, I think it presents a nice tangent on the discussion:
Fifty Percent Grey
mgc8,

"Really, how can one compare the vastness of the Universe to a little grain of sand on the beach? And that difference would be dwarfed by the comparison between a mere 50, 70, 100 years and infinity. How can one care the least bit for a few decades when on the other hand stands an infinite amount of time?"

I think its mainly because God loves us. He loves us enough to care about our tiny little dot of a planet. He was, is, and always will be.. but he loves us enough to give us a chance to be with him forever. To be in his glory forever.

About death...

There ARE some extremists who do take that idea and refuse medicine. They would rather suffer through and illness, and perhaps even die because they will try and rely on some kind of direct miracle from God. I think, theat the true miracles are the ones that come from our progressing medicinal technology. The way MOST Christians are able to view it, is that God gave our doctors the knowledge, wisdom, and steady hands.

Most Christians might fear dying, due to pain, suffering etc. which no one really likes to go through... but death itself.. you might be surprised to see that most Christians don't actually fear death. I don't fear it, and I think the other Christians here on the forum can claim the same.

Its still sad to see a Christian die, to leave us. But do you not realize that we can see the fact that they are now in a better place? When God calls someone home, the tears at their funeral are for the sadness of their leaving, and for the happiness of their arrival. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though... you just have to see through a Christian's eyes.

I like your hypothetical scenario by the way..

The thing is, is that all the knowledge that we need to know, in order to make a fully educated decision, is found in the Bible. It IS the foundation for our faith. Without it, we would still know a bit about Jesus, but no more than what we would know about Nero, or Ceasar.

All the information one needs for that decision, is in the Bible. We need the Bible, since God doesn't directly speak to people anymore. He hasn't done so since Christ's birth.

In response to your three last points,

Thanks! I'm glad to see someone else can appreciate this as a discussion, rather than an argument. You have made some very solid points yourself! It's always best to have these kinds of discussions with someone who actually wants to have one. I'm looking forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

1. That's just what they did. They disobeyed their creator, because they thought they could become like God. The serpent told them, that they will surely not die, when indeed they did. They were banished from the garden, when after, they eventually died after a couple generations. They may have lived a long time, but they still died. Since sin was now in them, their offspring would naturally be born enemies of God. Its normally called, punishment.

2. They do die, just as God said they would should they eat of the tree. The serpent is the one who said,

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The only knowledge they gained, was that they were naked, and they felt ashamed. But in no way, did they ever become like God. They already knew the difference between good and evil.

3. They knew beforehand that eating of the tree was bad, God told them specifically. And after they ate, they still knew that they had done something bad. They tried to hide from God. They covered themselves, the only thing their eyes were opened t, was that they were naked. So they clothed themselves.

Don't you punish your children when they make mistakes?

Are children not naturally born with sin inclinations?

Does it not take long for a toddler to 'hit' to get what he wants? Does it not take him long to learn to deceive his parents to get what he wants?

These are all interesting things to consider..

Tyler
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:48 PM #715
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
However, none of those passages say that man is the only soul- bearing thing able to receive salvation. Certainly, the passages point out that we were the ones made in his image. But who is to say that there are other soul- bearing beings out there, that are serviced by the Angels since they too, might receive Salvation? Its clear that nobody here knows, nor can say that they do.

I also see your point about why God wouldn't remove sin from the world.

This has troubled many believers, because it has to do with the differences between predestination, and free will. Which I might point out are two entirely separate ideas. Both are mentioned in the Bible as well.

I believe that if God had created man as a flawless, praise giving robot, then there would be no point to our existence. Praise from robots designed to do so means nothing.

That's why God gave us a free will. A freely decided choice from us, to praise, and follow God means a heck of a lot more. We fell because of our free will, and we can also be saved BECAUSE of our free will, not BY it.

The Bible says that even before we were born, he predestined us. It doesn't at all mean that we can't decide things during our lifetime, it simply means that God knows exactly who will, and who will not end up accepting him as the only way to salvation.

If we were mindless, will-less, praise giving beings that became tainted, then I too, would wonder why God didn't wipe us out and start over again.

Tyler
You avoid issues very effectively. My scripture was in response to your statement that we can't "know" why the universe was created, NOT whether there were other sentient beings in the universe or not. We do know (according to the inviolate word of god) that the universe was created for man. However, to answer your alien question, since the universe was created just for man (the inviolate word of god again here) then even if there are others, the universe was not created for them. We are once again left with 14 billion years of effort to set up the cosmos for the arrival of man.

Actually this becomes even sillier with the inclusion of the angels being created for man. For in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god. God (and presumably his minions) were around even before god decided to create the universe for man. So the plans had to have been enacted even earlier than 14 billion years ago.

Also, you committ a fallacy of mutual exclusivity with regard to pre-destination and free will. Both conditions CANNOT exist in the same universe. One cannot make decisions in a pre-destined state. One may fool themselves into thinking one has made a decision, but if the outcome is already pre-determined, there was no actual choice. The being made the only "choice" available to it. That is NOT free will. That is self delusion.

In a pre-destined system I am free to do whatever evil I choose. It would make no difference. No matter what kind of life I lead, I am either already going to heaven or not going. There is no need for sacrifice, works, grace, commandments, or forgiveness. There is no need for floods or the death of god's son. The system is set.

If I have free will, then god cannot know what my choices will be. Free will allows me to be in control of my destiny. What god wants is immaterial in a free will system. God does not control the outcome of my actions.

Finally, if god does already know who will and who won't choose to follow him, he has knowingly sentenced the ones who won't to eternal damnation by his inaction. He is not a very loving diety. He could save them all with a simple decision, but he refuses to do so or is unable to do so. Either condition would by your own statement make him "not" god.

Peace,
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:39 PM #716
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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"Really, how can one compare the vastness of the Universe to a little grain of sand on the beach? And that difference would be dwarfed by the comparison between a mere 50, 70, 100 years and infinity. How can one care the least bit for a few decades when on the other hand stands an infinite amount of time?"
I think its mainly because God loves us. He loves us enough to care about our tiny little dot of a planet. He was, is, and always will be.. but he loves us enough to give us a chance to be with him forever. To be in his glory forever.
Umm... ok, but that's not the point I was trying to make. I meant that compared to an infinity in heaven or hell, life on Earth is like a grain of sand in the Universe. It becomes immaterial and meaningless. That's why the idea of an afterlife cheapens the value of this one completely.

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There ARE some extremists who do take that idea and refuse medicine. (...) The way MOST Christians are able to view it, is that God gave our doctors the knowledge, wisdom, and steady hands.
Let me restate this differently: if the ultimate goal of every Christian is to live eternally in heaven, why bother with doctors? All they do is prolong a lowly life here, when the real deal awaits after death. And if God has already predetermined your life and death, why waste time with medicine at all? If you do nothing and get better, then it was God's will. If you die, all is good because you go to heaven anyway. So why have medicine? If Christians were to be consistent with their beliefs, they would laugh at all these pathetic attempts to prolong our "punishment" on Earth (as you state yourself, this "fallen" life is punishment for the original sin).

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Its still sad to see a Christian die, to leave us. But do you not realize that we can see the fact that they are now in a better place? When God calls someone home, the tears at their funeral are for the sadness of their leaving, and for the happiness of their arrival. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though... you just have to see through a Christian's eyes.
I won't comment on the "fear of death" part because it pertains to information about what other people do and feel, and I don't have data about it other than from anecdotal evidence; though I would wager that the amount of prescriptions for all sorts of life-prolonging drugs are a sign that people may not be quite as stoic...

Anyway, I disagree with the above completely. Don't know about you, but I've been to my share of funerals and never once did I see someone crying "with joy" about the departed one. When people leave for another country, we give them farewell parties; when they go on cruises we pat them on the back and envy them for their luck... yet none of those happens at a funeral! Those are not people sad that they won't be seeing their loved ones for a few measly years, they are deeply aware that such a loss is forever... and there is no greater sadness. Of course, all those people rationalize it away with optimistic thoughts in order to cope; yet their tears speak louder than their words.

Quote:
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The thing is, is that all the knowledge that we need to know, in order to make a fully educated decision, is found in the Bible. It IS the foundation for our faith. Without it, we would still know a bit about Jesus, but no more than what we would know about Nero, or Ceasar.
Sorry, but that won't work -- for two reasons:

1. Even if we were to ignore the many problems with the text, it is obviously too complicated for human minds to follow. Proof of that is the many splinters of all religions based on the same book, each one interpreting it differently. And you can't just say that they are all mistaken, since all those interpretations can be justified in one way or another, therefore it follows that God made the book unintelligible on purpose; so the information herein is obscured, therefore we are left in the dark again.

2. Not all humans are Christians, and many of them (about 4 billion currently) have other faiths. A lot of those people may live their entire lives without even hearing about the book -- so again, they are left in the dark, and according to some here they will burn in hell for no other reason than being born in the wrong place...

Quote:
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That's just what they did. They disobeyed their creator, because they thought they could become like God.(...)
The only knowledge they gained, was that they were naked, and they felt ashamed. But in no way, did they ever become like God. They already knew the difference between good and evil.
You're contradicting the very text of the book here.
Gen 3:22 - "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

So God himself says that by eating form the tree they became "as one of us", therefore confirming the truth of what the serpent said. They were so dangerous that they could actually eat from the tree of life next and live forever. Interestingly, this implies that before eating from that tree they could not live forever -- they would've died anyway! So the argument that by eating from the tree they bring death upon themselves is false, because they obviously don't die instantly and they would've died at some future moment anyway. Fun stuff...

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They knew beforehand that eating of the tree was bad, God told them specifically.
No, they didn't. They only knew that eating from it would kill them -- God never said it was "bad" or that they'd be punished. And what does "death" mean to a creature that's practically a few days old and doesn't have any knowledge of the world? Why didn't God tell them "beware of the snake, that's a creepy little fellow and it'll get you in trouble"? As I said before, they are given preciously little information and are expected to make destiny-changing decisions based on that. And it turns out the information was false anyway. Nice God, what can I say...

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Don't you punish your children when they make mistakes?
Mmm... you know, the current social norms encourage parents to actually teach their children first, and punish them later as a last resort. The normal way to treat a child that does something wrong is to make him understand why it was wrong in the first place, because, y'know, being children and all they don't really have experience and knowledge to judge things correctly. That's what parrents are for. I shudder to think what would happen if parents were to follow God's example and banish children from their home at the first sign of disobedience! Would you really advocate such punishment? One mistake, you're out? We don't even treat criminals that way... and God was supposed to "love" us.

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Are children not naturally born with sin inclinations?
I can't comment on that, it's just so... nevermind.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:45 AM #717
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The thing is, is that all the knowledge that we need to know, in order to make a fully educated decision, is found in the Bible.
So, for example:

Quote:
Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
-luke 14:25-26

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Are children not naturally born with sin inclinations?
You cannot inherit sin. 'I find it abhorrent that a newborn baby is considered to be dirty with sin. This makes a complete mockery of true morality, which requires both an understanding of right and wrong, and that individual's willful intention to do wrong, in order to determine immorality.

Even our modest human justice system has the basic common sense not to prosecute minors for their 'immoral actions' let alone those of their ancestors.'
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:03 AM #718
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

ice in one in every 10 thousand years? How could they have known ice's properties.

I thought it was cool, wasn't trying to start an argument over some ice?
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:57 AM #719
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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ice in one in every 10 thousand years? How could they have known ice's properties.

I thought it was cool, wasn't trying to start an argument over some ice?
I think you guys are underestimating people from "2000" years ago.

The Greeks had already devised advanced math, do you think they didn't know how ice formed? Or at least why it did?
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:34 PM #720
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

All organised religions are for simpletons, and those who can't think for themselves.
The only thing that truly matters in the end is the quantity of love in your life and if you were true to your heart, not what god you believe in, if you ate pork on Sunday, or how many infidels you killed.
There is only one supreme force in the universe, wether we call it Vishnu, Yaweh, God, Allah, the Flying ********* Monster, the force, or whatever,... it's the same thing.

In reality, when you die, your life is judged as it was, and where you go next is truly just about how you have treated others, and how you have lived your life (sucessfully or unsucessfully).
If you have increased the amount of love in the universe, you suceeded and get to chose your life next time around. If you were full of hate and selfishly took from the universe during your life, you failed and don't get to chose your next life, you are forced into a life that will teach you lessons that you failed to learn the previous time around.

Trust me. If you have ever had the chance to escape this TSI (Time-Space Illusion) that we live in and read the Akashic Records, you would know that life is simply a learning experience and we have all done this (inhabit a physical body) thousands of times before, and it's no big deal.
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