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Old 08-18-2009, 06:07 AM #689
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Ok! Would you say that its a good fate so far? Or are the global warming activists right in saying we are able, and are destroying the Earth?

Thanks for sharing your views!

Tyler
I won't say it's either good or bad. It just is.


Have you read my comment regarding the "math book" example?


g2g to get some sleep, see ya all tomorrow.


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Old 08-18-2009, 09:34 AM #690
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Ahhh, I think I'm going to like this part of the forum, debating philosophy and religion is, in my opinion, great.
About Jesus and his hair (strangest topic I've ever started off at LOL) the whole picture of him with long hair just came from the many, many paintings of him, starting off with a painting of the story (lol), a painting of a painting, a painting of a painting of a painting, etc, etc. He was only depicted as european with long hair because european was the 'superior' (I don't mean to offend anyone) race at that time. What he probably (but not certainly, looked like was middle-eastern with short hair. A lot different from what many people think haha.
Also, Meatball even though Leviticus was written waaaayyyyyy before Jesus, it doesn't mean the hair fashion hadn't changed. The letters of Paul (I think it was that) said in one part that it was disgraceful for men to have long hair. Seeing that that was written a mere 30-50 years after Jesus (I think) it is likely long haired men were still seen as 'vile'.
Also, in answer to your question meatball, there would still be meaning: to live, survive, continue the species. That's just the raw point/meaning though...heck it is still the point to why we live/love today!

Also, just because I'm curious, are you fundamentalist Christian Meatball? You don;t have to answer, I'm just curious.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:35 AM #691
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Crap, i was looking at a different page when I sent that LOL
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:44 AM #692
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Then he would not be God.

Thus we too, unable and unwilling, are also not in control.

Are we (man) in true control of the Earth? Do we decide its fate?

Tyler
1) correct

2) correct

3) only in the most limited sense

It remains inconceivable to me that humans view the cosmos with such egocentric arrogance. To believe that this entire universe was created to house us so we could make some other singular being feel loved is the epitome of self-centeredness.

Xtians are not alone in such arrogance. Most creation stories place humans at the center of or the reason for creation.

The universe is ~14 BILLION years old. The earth itself is ~4 BILLION years old. Humans have been around for ~100K years. We have only been more than "wandering bands" for ~10K years. The bible was written <3K years ago.

To believe that after 14 Billion years some "perfect" being suddenly felt lonely or got so bored that he decided to create "us" to make himself feel loved borders on megalomania.

Perhaps you should simply consider the concept of "perfection" a bit more. Why would a "perfect" being need us? Where in "perfection" is there any room for any sort of "need" anyway? If he is "perfect" why does he seem to display human weaknesses?

Peace,
dave
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:09 PM #693
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Doing good is always good! But why do you choose to do good? Is it so that you receive goodness back?
i find it incredibly selfish to do good only because some story promised that you'll receive good in return.
especially when the story desperately attempts to recruit believers by claiming that non-believers will suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Why do good people die? Why do they still suffer as others do?
because there's not a supremely awesome entity that simultaneously knows everything, cares for everything, and can do anything to change that.
and promising better life after death is just . . . empty and unsubstantial in any way.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:35 PM #694
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Excellent points as always, Dave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrnz93 View Post
...About Jesus and his hair (strangest topic I've ever started off at LOL)
I've got you beat. I came into a conversation on chihuahua heatsinks once. I think it might have been on this forum, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by themandalorian View Post
Lol I think my aunt is christian but she got pissed yesterday. Reading the bible to children and it was something like and Abraham told his wife go make dinner. Ahhh her reaction was quite funny
HAH!! you should suggest these passages to her:

Quote:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence
- 1Tim. 2:12

Quote:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
- 1Cor. 14:34-35

Quote:
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:


Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:


And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;



And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.


And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;


And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.


But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:


Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

- Deut. 22:13-21


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Alright, so you say you don't need a creator to make you life worth living. That's great for you, but is it that way for everyone else? Does everyone else have to opportunities to make their life as worth it as yours? What do those others live for?
Suggesting the destitute among us require a deity is no more to the point that a drunk man is happier than a sober man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Why do good people die? Why do they still suffer as others do?
This is evidence against God. Not for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
I've found my point in life. Its bigger than those having to do with the "things" and stuff of this place!
'It makes me nauseous to think that children are taught that the most important part of their life is auditioning for the next one. This is truly a poisonous concept that inevitably leads to the degradation of our current world as a transit life - a 'vale of tears' - that we must put up with momentarily until our ticket is clipped and we are rescued from this miserable existence of trial and temptation.

In stark contrast, atheists in general believe this to be our one and only life, a view which, I can assure you, makes life precious beyond all value'

Last edited by Cyparagon; 08-18-2009 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:40 PM #695
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
I do see what you mean..
its a fairly common view as well!

Doing good is always good! But why do you choose to do good? Is it so that you receive goodness back?

Why do good people die? Why do they still suffer as others do?

I'm NOT attacking you or your view, I'm wanting to hear your answer.

Thanks!

Tyler
And I don't know I just can't bring myself to do things I wouldn't want to happen to me. Just instinct not to do it I guess. Maybe to make myself not feel so shafted I tell myself good will then happen to me

Cyparagon lol OMG



Btw here's some scientific proof jesus (I don't believe he was the son of god I'm just saying this guy) Could have walked on water. Except it would have been clear ice. Cool read!!!

Jesus Could Have Walked on Ice, Scientist Says | LiveScience
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:46 PM #696
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Btw here's some scientific proof jesus (I don't believe he was the son of god I'm just saying this guy) Could have walked on water. Except it would have been clear ice. Cool read!!!
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:53 PM #697
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Lol ok how bout, if someone was ever there they could have walked on that ice.

happy?
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:57 PM #698
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by themandalorian View Post
Lol ok how bout, if someone was ever there they could have walked on that ice.

happy?
Let's suppose that was true. Wouldn't people realize it's ICE? I'm sure people from 1000 years ago knew what ICE was.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:44 PM #699
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Tyler (aka: Meatball)

It's nice to see another Christian on here.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:28 PM #700
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

For whatever reason, this recent turn of this thread reminds me of Einstein's famous exchange with Max Born, in which Einstein said "God does not play dice", to which Born replied "Einstein, stop telling God what to do".


And this, naturally, reminds me of a quote from the EXCELLENT book "Good Omens" by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett:

Quote:
“God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of the players, (ie everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”
Definitely amongst the most representative things I've ever read with regards to my views on the subject, especially the "...who smiles all the time" part.

And a dang good book, too, you should definitely pick it up sometime. Except Meatball, you'd probably be pretty offended. The anti-christ switched at birth, and hilarity ensues. Ha!

Last edited by pullbangdead; 08-18-2009 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:04 AM #701
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pullbangdead View Post
For whatever reason, this recent turn of this thread reminds me of Einstein's famous exchange with Max Born, in which Einstein said "God does not play dice", to which Born replied "Einstein, stop telling God what to do".


And this, naturally, reminds me of a quote from the EXCELLENT book "Good Omens" by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett:



Definitely amongst the most representative things I've ever read with regards to my views on the subject, especially the "...who smiles all the time" part.

And a dang good book, too, you should definitely pick it up sometime. Except Meatball, you'd probably be pretty offended. The anti-christ switched at birth, and hilarity ensues. Ha!
I demand more quotes.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:22 AM #702
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrnz93 View Post
Also, Meatball even though Leviticus was written waaaayyyyyy before Jesus, it doesn't mean the hair fashion hadn't changed. The letters of Paul (I think it was that) said in one part that it was disgraceful for men to have long hair. Seeing that that was written a mere 30-50 years after Jesus (I think) it is likely long haired men were still seen as 'vile'.
Also, in answer to your question meatball, there would still be meaning: to live, survive, continue the species. That's just the raw point/meaning though...heck it is still the point to why we live/love today!

Also, just because I'm curious, are you fundamentalist Christian Meatball? You don;t have to answer, I'm just curious.
Byrnz93,

Thank you for sharing that information! Which letter was it that Paul wrote that? Would it be in 1 Corinthians?

I don't suppose that men were still killed for their hair during that time, though they would have been disgraced.

Reproduction... continuing the species.. I see I see. Well does that leave us in the end? What it comes down to it, what does that matter? What does it gain us? Earthly pleasures are still no doubt, temporary.

Why do you live today? What is your purpose?

I can't really say what I am I suppose. I attend an interdenominational church. Personally, I'm against the split in the church. Does that answer your question?

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
1) correct

2) correct

3) only in the most limited sense

It remains inconceivable to me that humans view the cosmos with such egocentric arrogance. To believe that this entire universe was created to house us so we could make some other singular being feel loved is the epitome of self-centeredness.

Xtians are not alone in such arrogance. Most creation stories place humans at the center of or the reason for creation.

The universe is ~14 BILLION years old. The earth itself is ~4 BILLION years old. Humans have been around for ~100K years. We have only been more than "wandering bands" for ~10K years. The bible was written <3K years ago.

To believe that after 14 Billion years some "perfect" being suddenly felt lonely or got so bored that he decided to create "us" to make himself feel loved borders on megalomania.

Perhaps you should simply consider the concept of "perfection" a bit more. Why would a "perfect" being need us? Where in "perfection" is there any room for any sort of "need" anyway? If he is "perfect" why does he seem to display human weaknesses?

Peace,
dave
I see your point about why God might create. One thing we have to look at, is that we don't know, if God has placed other life forms in the cosmos other than us. No Christian cannot justifiably say that "Aliens don't exist", or "Life on other planets is just stupid". We get jealous of the idea, that we are Gods only creation, when we really have no reason to believe that we are.

Again, man's primary purpose, is to glorify God, and enjoy him forever.
So its not just in his pleasure that we are created, but for ours as well.

Frankly, I believe that God doesn't need us. And that he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by wiping us all out a long time ago. It seems that by some form of mercy, we are able to still be here, being given another chance.

Great points Dave!

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by primary View Post
i find it incredibly selfish to do good only because some story promised that you'll receive good in return.
especially when the story desperately attempts to recruit believers by claiming that non-believers will suffer.

...promising better life after death is just . . . empty and unsubstantial in any way.
primary,

I might let you know that that is indeed not how any Christian should live their life, or anyone for that matter, and it is indeed selfish. But I was asking someone in specific those questions, and had nothing to do with the "story" you mention.

How is the promise of a better life after death empty? Please explain what you mean.

Thanks!

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post

This is evidence against God. Not for him.



'It makes me nauseous to think that children are taught that the most important part of their life is auditioning for the next one. This is truly a poisonous concept that inevitably leads to the degradation of our current world as a transit life - a 'vale of tears' - that we must put up with momentarily until our ticket is clipped and we are rescued from this miserable existence of trial and temptation.

In stark contrast, atheists in general believe this to be our one and only life, a view which, I can assure you, makes life precious beyond all value'
Cyparagon,

Please explain how it is evidence against God's existence. I believe the reason that all suffer, is because we live in a fallen world. One infected with sin.

It seems to me that your interpretation of Christianity, from what you have seen or heard, is rather twisted and inaccurate, since that is not at all how children are taught about the good news of Christ's coming. I can share it to you, but something tells me that you won't be listening. But that's fine really, someone else surely will be!

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by themandalorian View Post
And I don't know I just can't bring myself to do things I wouldn't want to happen to me. Just instinct not to do it I guess. Maybe to make myself not feel so shafted I tell myself good will then happen to me

Btw here's some scientific proof jesus (I don't believe he was the son of god I'm just saying this guy) Could have walked on water. Except it would have been clear ice. Cool read!!!

Jesus Could Have Walked on Ice, Scientist Says | LiveScience
themandalorian,

Thank you for sharing your answer. So you suppose its just that you'd rather not feel guilty about doing another wrong? Or is it something else. I think instinct is something different than doing "good" apart from "bad".

I believe that anyone who tries to prove God with science, is trying to put a measuring stick up next something that cannot be measured. Yes, I believe some things do go beyond scientific measurement and record keeping.

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by iskor12 View Post
Tyler (aka: Meatball)

It's nice to see another Christian on here.
iskor12,

Same to you!

Tyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by pullbangdead View Post

And a dang good book, too, you should definitely pick it up sometime. Except Meatball, you'd probably be pretty offended. The anti-christ switched at birth, and hilarity ensues. Ha!
Pullbangdead,

Don't worry, none shall be taken. I'm not one to complain when something isn't stated correctly, or isn't politically correct. Same goes for any personal statement, its bound to offend someone, so might as well go ahead and say it! lol

Perhaps I'll pick up the book, it sounds interesting.

When was it written?

Tyler



What are everyone's theories about the death of the Dinosaurs?

Its one of my favorite topics, since so little is known. So few religions even mention them. What happened to them?

Excited to hear back!

Tyler
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:29 AM #703
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Pullbangdead,

Don't worry, none shall be taken. I'm not one to complain when something isn't stated correctly, or isn't politically correct. Same goes for any personal statement, its bound to offend someone, so might as well go ahead and say it! lol

Perhaps I'll pick up the book, it sounds interesting.

When was it written?

Tyler
It was actually first published in 1990 (according to Wikipedia), but I picked it up when it got re-released in a new hardback a couple of years ago. Great book, just check wikipedia for a short plot summary. But greatly hilarious, loved it. Really, I've loved all of Gaiman's books, but Good Omens the best.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:52 AM #704
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
I see your point about why God might create. One thing we have to look at, is that we don't know, if God has placed other life forms in the cosmos other than us. No Christian cannot justifiably say that "Aliens don't exist", or "Life on other planets is just stupid". We get jealous of the idea, that we are Gods only creation, when we really have no reason to believe that we are.

Again, man's primary purpose, is to glorify God, and enjoy him forever.
So its not just in his pleasure that we are created, but for ours as well.

Frankly, I believe that God doesn't need us. And that he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by wiping us all out a long time ago. It seems that by some form of mercy, we are able to still be here, being given another chance.
The entire universe was created for man -- Even the angels (which were somehow already in existence long before man came along) were created for man

Psalm 147:11(NASB)
11 The LORD favors those who fear Him, Those who wait for His lovingkindness
Here is the purpose of God's creation .....man. Obedient man. It was only man who was "created in the image of God" (Gen. 1:27). All other things were created for man's use and control. Psalm 8:6-8 tells us:
Psalm 8:6-8(NASB)
6 Thou dost make him to rule over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
This helps us to see God's purpose. The entire universe was intended by God to be used by man. The Scriptures tell us that even Angels were created for man, Hebrews 1:14:
Heb. 1:14(NASB)
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?



You also attempt to make the point that god has "given us a chance" by not wiping us out. How about a different approach? How about if the all powerful being simply "fixes" the mistake and re-creates us in such a way that we will bring him pleasure forever, instead of setting us up to fail?

How about if ANY place along the road to sin (starting with the Morning Star's rebellion) he simply "fixes" the problem? Why allow Lucifer to become Satan? Why allow Adam to feel lonely? Why give Satan free reign? Why place the tree of knowledge in the garden? Why allow Eve to eat the fruit? Why allow Adam to be tempted into eating the fruit by Eve?

At any one of those junctures, god could have set things right to prevent his preciouis creation from suffering in the pit for eternity. . . . . and yet he allowed all of these conditions to occur so that the majority of his precious creations would fail and suffer forever.

It is a mystery, ain't it?

Here's a little test to see if you have at least thought through your concept of god

http://www.philosophypress.co.uk/cgi...t=0&hitcount=0

Also, here is one that will help you choose the "right" god for you

http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/whatisgod.htm

If things don't work out so well with your current god, feel free to choose another

http://www.godchecker.com/

Beware of promises of life where death is a prerequisite



Peace,
dave

Last edited by daguin; 08-19-2009 at 03:47 AM.
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