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Old 09-11-2016, 01:19 AM #6945
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Default Re: LPF's Religion





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Old 09-28-2016, 09:12 PM #6946
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I'll have to disagree with those views. If something is omnipotent that means that i have no free will by definition:
How do you to conclude that if an omnipotent being exists then by necessity free will of other beings cannot exist? Certainly it's at least plausible that they can coexist.

I'd go as far as to say that on atheism free will cannot exist, since on materialism all actions are causally determined and free will is an illusion. You end up needing God for free will to exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
For atheists preventing their own death is usually fairly high on the agenda since that would mean the end of things.
Ultimately why should atheists or you yourself care either way, since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
hey duke, remember when I said there is no fear in love and you disagreed with me?

1 John 4:18

probably out of context again though right?

makes me wonder why we're supposed to both love and fear the lord
I'm not sure why you keep having issues, but it appears that you assume contradiction and don't bother to look any further. Two uses of the word "fear" here.

-to be afraid of
&
-to have a reverential awe

You should have known this, or looked it up.
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Old 09-29-2016, 12:14 AM #6947
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
How do you to conclude that if an omnipotent being exists then by necessity free will of other beings cannot exist? Certainly it's at least plausible that they can coexist.

I'd go as far as to say that on atheism free will cannot exist, since on materialism all actions are causally determined and free will is an illusion. You end up needing God for free will to exist.




Ultimately why should atheists or you yourself care either way, since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?



I'm not sure why you keep having issues, but it appears that you assume contradiction and don't bother to look any further. Two uses of the word "fear" here.

-to be afraid of
&
-to have a reverential awe

You should have known this, or looked it up.



Some clarifications:

Being an atheist only means that you don't believe in gods.

Most theists, Christians for example, don't believe in gods either, except theirs.

Not believing that supernatural forces exist doesn't change the meaning of life, it's value, or purpose...

...unless your only value is to believe in the supernatural, and your only purpose is to believe in the supernatural, and the only meaningful thing in your life is belief in the supernatural.


So, lets say you value your family, your time with them and your friends, what you do for a living, charities you work with, or to enjoy your free time, etc.

How would not ALSO believing in Allah, or Zeus, etc, change that?

If, for example you feel that your purpose in life is to create beautiful artwork, or to help homeless people, or to make affordable furniture, etc...why does your life have no purpose without believing in Zeus?


And so forth....not believing in Zeus doesn't mean that you don't believe in ANYTHING... just that you don't believe in Zeus.


Claiming that unless you believe in Zeus (A god), you don't believe in ANYTHING or have any values, makes no sense.

Most Christians don't believe in Zeus, and they might like helping homeless people or working at charities or playing with their kids, etc.

You don't love your friends and family or art or music because you believe in a supernatural critter, you do because you are a human.

Humans have the capacity to love and to pursue happiness, and to believe in what they want to, and not believe what they don't want to...

and

...unless they live in a society that outlaws/discourages it....they do.


Some people are rabid sports fans....they believe in the Mets, Or Cubs, etc. It gives their life meaning, they value the time spent on fantasy and at games, etc, they run their life around the team schedule, etc.


If a Yankee fan says, wait, you don't root for the Yankees?

That means your life has no meaning, you have no values, or worth.

The ONLY way to have meaning, value and purpose in your life, is to root for the Yankees.





I find the natural world to be beautiful and amazing and awe inspiring.

It is less so when viewed through the shroud of the supernatural.


The supernatural world is where you go with astrology instead of astronomy, alchemy instead of chemistry, metaphysics instead of physics, instead of seeing it unfiltered in its natural glory.

Value, meaning and purpose abound in the natural world, and you don't have to choose just one team to root for, you can choose any team you want to, or, root for them all, or for none, and play instead of watch.


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Old 09-29-2016, 12:48 AM #6948
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
How do you to conclude that if an omnipotent being exists then by necessity free will of other beings cannot exist? Certainly it's at least plausible that they can coexist.
No, they are mutually exclusive.

If there is an omnipotent beeing that could be influencing my choices without me knowing about it, so there is no way to tell if what i do is out of free will or under control of that being.

The illusing of free will could still exist, but such a 'god' could easily make me do something it likes without me being ever aware of this.

Quote:
Ultimately why should atheists or you yourself care either way, since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?
For most atheists life is precious, since there is no afterlife, no second chance. If you die that ends your existence, something very undesirable unless you are in extreme persistant pain or something similar.

Atheists usually attribute a lot of value to life, probably more so than religious people, as death is not the moment you go to heaven but the moment you cease to exist. A religious person might be 'okay' with his death as some afterlife awaits and that might actually be more pleasant than life on earth.

Good thing for religious people is that atheists pose no threat to them: there is no such thing as atheist suicide bombers, martyrs on anything like that. There is no reason for violence against religious people unless they are unbearably oppresive.
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Old 09-29-2016, 12:52 AM #6949
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
How do you to conclude that if an omnipotent being exists then by necessity free will of other beings cannot exist? Certainly it's at least plausible that they can coexist.

I'd go as far as to say that on atheism free will cannot exist, since on materialism all actions are causally determined and free will is an illusion. You end up needing God for free will to exist.




Ultimately why should atheists or you yourself care either way, since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?



I'm not sure why you keep having issues, but it appears that you assume contradiction and don't bother to look any further. Two uses of the word "fear" here.

-to be afraid of
&
-to have a reverential awe

You should have known this, or looked it up.



Free Will


My opinion is that we all DO have free will, but that it is constrained by our circumstances.

Logically, as long as we are making our own choices, even if its merely choosing between being shot and accepting a faith, etc...its still a choice...just a bad draw of the cards so to speak.


Logically, if someone has a plan for every person. from before they were born, to use an example a christian buddy said is the case...

...some things, logically, flow from that.

For example, if there's a plan, what you were going to "choose" was already determined.

If you choose something ELSE, then that must have been the plan...

...Because, if not, the "plan" was not predetermined before your were born.


It would be like a chess game, where you plan your next 50 moves to check mate your opponent, but the pieces can go wherever they want to.


So, if people HAVE free will, what happens cannot be predetermined.

The two ideas are in direct conflict.

Its the difference between saying god guessed at what would happen, and if wrong, its your fault....and he controlled what would happen, in which case he's at fault if things go badly.


Its an obvious "get out of jail free card" ploy....so theists can pretend that god planed you to be a wonderful guy and contribute to humanities welfare, etc...but, you were a serial killer instead, because of "free will".

On the flip side, if you ARE a wonderful person, or things go well and you find a happy scenario, they can say its because of gods plan for you.


So, things are bad and its not your fault, say, someone t-bones you while you're legally parked waiting to meet someone, you get "downsized", etc...

god works in mysterious ways, you need to find gods plan for you, etc.


So, god's plan get the credit if positive, and, free will if you screw up.

A plane carrying 200 baby orphans crashes and 199 babies are killed.

The 200th baby who survived was "A miracle!" God saved that baby, because, well, the other 199 babies just sucked.

Why did god let the pilot get drunk before take off? Free Will.



And so forth.

Either god is controlling things, and what happens to you and what you do IS preordained, or, no one is controlling things, and stuff just happens about the way you'd expect...with free will being just a side note.


Some people argue that there's no such thing as free will because the nature of atoms, physics, and so forth, means you were going to do what you did because of it.

To me, that's a poor argument, as even within physics, there is Brownian motion, etc, and random particle decays, etc.

There is a degree of randomness built into the system, and, as long as you are making a choice, you will tend to weigh the options and make a decision.

Some will be no brainers, some might be less obvious...but its still your choice.

To me, that's free will.

If I believed god had a plan for all of us, then, no, we would not have free will, as our actions were preordained...and god chose for us.

If we CHANGED that, then god had to have chosen THAT, or, he was wrong...or, powerless to control it.


IE: If god had a plan for us, a greater purpose he wanted to achieve, and we are all cogs in his giant wheel, so that millions dying in tsunamis, floods, fires, of cancer, starvation, etc...was part of some grand plan....fine...we are characters in god's play...acting out his grand plan, without a choice.


No one would typically CHOOSE to drown in a tsunami/die of cancer. When a baby gets cancer, and it cannot understand why it is suffering, we can either decide its part of god's plan, or, decide it was due to exposure to a chemical, etc.

Etc.


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Old 09-29-2016, 01:13 AM #6950
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
How do you to conclude that if an omnipotent being exists then by necessity free will of other beings cannot exist? Certainly it's at least plausible that they can coexist.

I'd go as far as to say that on atheism free will cannot exist, since on materialism all actions are causally determined and free will is an illusion. You end up needing God for free will to exist.




Ultimately why should atheists or you yourself care either way, since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?



I'm not sure why you keep having issues, but it appears that you assume contradiction and don't bother to look any further. Two uses of the word "fear" here.

-to be afraid of
&
-to have a reverential awe

You should have known this, or looked it up.


"There is no fear in love" -


So, it would be translated as "There is no reverential awe in love?"


That doesn't make sense as a sentence to me.


The context, to me, of the passage, is more along the lines that fear, used in the sense of fearing danger/lacking trust in the safety of the relationship, etc...prevents love.

I looked at some biblical interpretations of the passage, and, the biblical scholars agree with me.

Your version doesn't even make sense...and, disagrees with biblical scholars.


So, the biblical consensus is that there is no fear in love, as the passage states.



I'd be ok with any interpretation of the passage, but I personally feel that, at least as a concept, fear is not good for a relationship. Being with someone because of fear of them, and their retribution if they feel you want to leave them, don't believe in them, etc. sounds like an abusive situation.

Now, if the fear is justified, perhaps the love is not...but, love can be blind.

If you have reverential awe for your partner/subject of your love, that can be wonderful, especially if reciprocated, etc.

NOT having that awe in love seems sad.





You can of course continue to disagree, as we are talking about a passage in a story book...so its essentially about whether mighty mouse could beat up bat man, etc.

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Old 09-29-2016, 01:41 AM #6951
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?
I will not be spoken to in that tone. I find my own meaning in life. I don't have it dictated to me.
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Old 09-29-2016, 05:38 AM #6952
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post

Good thing for religious people is that atheists pose no threat to them: there is no such thing as atheist suicide bombers, martyrs on anything like that. There is no reason for violence against religious people unless they are unbearably oppresive.
I somewhat disagree with this. Look at atheistic governments and dictatorships such as China/North Korea/Stalin/Hitler etc. Look at atheist mass murderers such as Adam Lanza. Plenty of atheists are willing to 'donate their life to the cause'. Just look at the saying that "A man may die, but his actions will live on forever".

Just because you don't see atheists blowing themselves up for Jihad doesn't mean that they haven't committed their fair share of wrongs in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
No, they are mutually exclusive.

If there is an omnipotent beeing that could be influencing my choices without me knowing about it, so there is no way to tell if what i do is out of free will or under control of that being.

The illusing of free will could still exist, but such a 'god' could easily make me do something it likes without me being ever aware of this.



.
This could get silly quick if you think about it. What if an all-powerful god used his infinite power to give us free will which could never be overridden, including by himself. After all, how interesting is your creation if you maintain absolute control over it. Perhaps you might want to see what your creation would choose to do on its own. They wouldn't be a threat to you, as you could still smite them or whatever if they got too out of control. Look no further than the story of Satan. Satan was an angel created by God who decided to rebel, and was then cast down to a lower plane of existence as punishment. God always remains in control, but we have the choice of whether or not we want to follow or suffer the consequences (which is basically free will). We have the freedom to break the law, but society also has the freedom to punish us for breaking said law.

Another scenario would be where you have multiple deities who are relatively evenly matched, and it's up to us to choose between the fundamental forces of good, righteousness and structure vs defilement/chaos/corruption or something like that.

-I don't necessarily believe all this, but I also don't buy the whole "If there's a God, free will cannot exist" argument.
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Old 09-29-2016, 08:38 AM #6953
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I will not be spoken to in that tone. I find my own meaning in life. I don't have it dictated to me.
I agree, the meaning of life is for us to find our own meaning. I fully expect to find myself fully conscious after so called death and to also find there is no need for religion on the other side! Love yes, dogma no.

I like this ladies story

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xB-T78qgfHM
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Old 09-29-2016, 12:59 PM #6954
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
"I fully expect to find myself fully conscious after so called death" (very true, you will be !)
"and to also find there is no need for religion on the other side!" (very true, too late for any of that, then!)

"Love yes, dogma no."
Jesus said:-
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man (Jesus) lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
(John 15:13-15)

I wouldn't be a true friend if I didn't tell you about the real eternity to come.

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but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
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Old 09-29-2016, 02:23 PM #6955
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

After reading so much of this thread, its quite plain that Theists are as confused about Atheism as Atheists such as myself are about Theists.

Claiming that Atheists don't value/appreciate/enjoy life is really quite silly though. The desire to live, to exist, and to seek enjoyment from life is a human function independent of any religious beliefs. And as others have pointed out, the argument could be made that Atheists may enjoy and appreciate our own lives as well as the lives of others more so as we believe this is our one and only life.

In the argument about horrendous acts committed in the name of religion, I would never claim that Atheists are innocent. However, I cannot recall any instances of Atheists committing these acts because they are Athiests, rather they are unbalanced people and their being Atheist is merely coincidental, where as throughout history there are plenty of examples of horrendous acts being committed in the name of religion.

And thats not to say Theists are all budding killers just waiting to slaughter people in some sort of religious fervor. For the most part the vast majority of Theists are decent people. Its just a handful of fanatics that take things too far. This minority of extremists is so loud they drown out the rest of their group.
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:27 PM #6956
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
After reading so much of this thread, its quite plain that Theists are as confused about Atheism as Atheists such as myself are about Theists.

Claiming that Atheists don't value/appreciate/enjoy life is really quite silly though. The desire to live, to exist, and to seek enjoyment from life is a human function independent of any religious beliefs. And as others have pointed out, the argument could be made that Atheists may enjoy and appreciate our own lives as well as the lives of others more so as we believe this is our one and only life.

In the argument about horrendous acts committed in the name of religion, I would never claim that Atheists are innocent. However, I cannot recall any instances of Atheists committing these acts because they are Athiests, rather they are unbalanced people and their being Atheist is merely coincidental, where as throughout history there are plenty of examples of horrendous acts being committed in the name of religion.

And thats not to say Theists are all budding killers just waiting to slaughter people in some sort of religious fervor. For the most part the vast majority of Theists are decent people. Its just a handful of fanatics that take things too far. This minority of extremists is so loud they drown out the rest of their group.


I agree.

Many Christians commit crimes and horrific acts, because they are bad people, not because they are Christians. Some have committed the acts BECAUSE they are Christian though, just as some Muslims have committed acts because they were Muslim, and so forth.

Atheists are not immune to being bad, but, statistically at least, to use US crime statistics for example, on a per capita basis, a higher proportion of Christians are in prison than Atheists.

IE: Christians are over represented, compared to their overall population.

Atheists are under represented, compared to their overall population...to the point that, statistically, almost no atheists are in prison at all.

So, if Atheists and Christians were about equally likely to be bad, the same percentage of each would be in prison...or it would be at least similar.

The truth is that this is not even close to the case. Almost no Atheists, percentage-wise, are in prison.

Are the Christians in prison BECAUSE they are Christians? No evidence of that.

Why are there too few Atheists in prison compared to their population at large?

It at least doesn't seem to support the idea that Atheists are MORE likely to commit crimes....and, may indicate that they are LESS likely to.


As for terrorism, that's almost 100% political, with religion used to manipulate the populations to incite them to violence where it can work.



Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

Blaise Pascal



So, I do not know of a single instance where an atheist committed a terrorist act or atrocity, for the cause of atheism.

I know of MANY examples of terrorist acts and atrocities specifically in the name of the involved religion.

I just don't think that an act by someone of a particular religion means the religion was the cause.


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Old 09-30-2016, 01:02 AM #6957
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

First of all, i agree with the posts just before: Surely atheists can do terrible things, but they rarely do so -because- they are atheist, for the atheist cause or even to make any point about atheism.

If someone commits a violent crime like a robbery we don't usually consider their religion at all, they just did it for the money. People that identify as christian, muslim, atheist or other religions all do these things, but atheists no more than any other group.

Muslims carry out violent attacks these days in the name of islam, just killing 'infidels' is an objective sometimes. Christians also went on crusades in the past mainly offering the choice between conversion and death. Afaik there has never been an atheist that forced another human to abstain from his faith or die - and i hope there never will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razako View Post
What if an all-powerful god used his infinite power to give us free will which could never be overridden, including by himself.
That's a classical argument. Can a god create someting so heavy that he cannot lift it? Obviously this is possible if he simply turned off gravity for the exercise. So could a god create some situation so immutable he cannot change it?

The answer to this is unknown for lack of indentified omnipotent beings taking the challenge. It does identify a paradox with omnipotence: if you cannot create an immutible situation you are not omnipotent. If you cannot change a situation you are not omnipotent.

This also gives rise to the problem that there can only be 1 omnipotent being (within causality range if that still applies). A logical consequence of this is that the vast majority of people on earth believing in some god must be incorrect, even if one group is actually correct.
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Old 09-30-2016, 02:26 AM #6958
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
First of all, i agree with the posts just before: Surely atheists can do terrible things, but they rarely do so -because- they are atheist, for the atheist cause or even to make any point about atheism.

If someone commits a violent crime like a robbery we don't usually consider their religion at all, they just did it for the money. People that identify as christian, muslim, atheist or other religions all do these things, but atheists no more than any other group.

Muslims carry out violent attacks these days in the name of islam, just killing 'infidels' is an objective sometimes. Christians also went on crusades in the past mainly offering the choice between conversion and death. Afaik there has never been an atheist that forced another human to abstain from his faith or die - and i hope there never will be.



That's a classical argument. Can a god create something so heavy that he cannot lift it? Obviously this is possible if he simply turned off gravity for the exercise. So could a god create some situation so immutable he cannot change it?

The answer to this is unknown for lack of indentified omnipotent beings taking the challenge. It does identify a paradox with omnipotence: if you cannot create an immutible situation you are not omnipotent. If you cannot change a situation you are not omnipotent.

This also gives rise to the problem that there can only be 1 omnipotent being (within causality range if that still applies). A logical consequence of this is that the vast majority of people on earth believing in some god must be incorrect, even if one group is actually correct.
All of the "uber adjectives" are meaningless in reality.

Gods were never omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, etc, until Catholicism arrived and made every thing the ultimate version of whatever attribute was involved.

In the old testament, god didn't seem too organized, made Adam a dumb naked immortal...and, after trying to see if Adam wanted some animals as companions, THEN made Eve, and THEN said to be fruitful and multiply, etc...

If Adam had not said that he wanted a companion, or had accepted a goat as companion, etc, there would be no human race....just a dumb naked immortal Adam running about the Garden of Eden for all eternity, like a critter in a zoo.


So much for omniscience...or plans.


Hebrews, with god, lost to a foe with iron chariots, so, so much for omnipotent.


The Hebrews were chosen, but, for WHAT? Slavery? Pogroms? Holocausts? It SOUNDS more like god tells that to ALL the guys. No baby, you're special, those others, they mean nothing to me, you're the only one I care about.

I mean, listen to ALL the Abrahamic religions, they ALL say THEY are the only ones going to heaven...because THEY'RE "special", and, god's sending all those OTHER fools to hell.

And so forth.


After the whole being his own son, and dying for 3 days, to forgive mankind for not knowing right from wrong until too late to not do wrong (With wrong = finding OUT about right and wrong, to boot...)

THEN things got bat shit crazy with superlatives.


To justify the superlatives, the gymnastics could embarrass a manila folder.

God was so strong he COULD make something so heavy he could not lift it AND STILL BE ABLE TO LIFT IT!!!

God not only knew everything, he was controlling every molecule in your body, and, had a plan for you from before he created the world.

He could not only give you the free will to do anything you wanted to, he could ALSO control every molecule in your body and knew what you were going to do, according to his divine plan...

And so forth.

Any conflicts were flicked off with stock phrases.


So, he knows everything, has a plan for everyone, controls everything, you can still do what you want to, but its up to god.

They know god is good and perfect and loves you. If a tsunami drowns a thousand babies in a flooded orphanage, we cannot be arrogant enough to think we know the mind of god.


It would be SIGNIFICANTLY less ludicrous if they backed off to, perhaps, the more bumbling but occasionally vicious Hebrew god.

That way, he can be mighty, or smart, or clever, but at least not run into conflict paradoxes.

They could even find a position of being the strong-est, or smart-est, etc, w/o going for ALL the marbles on ALL the descriptions.

He doesn't get credit for you praying that your team wins a game, or blamed for the tsunami...he has no control over baseball games even if you wear that lucky shirt, or tsunamis, etc.


Since its all made up anyway, and, all the theists DO is defend why there's no evidence anyway, and why it all doesn't make sense, it would simply make the defense a bit easier.

The Catholics are always dressing everything up too fancy to be taken seriously.

In THEIR defense though, even the Christians who consider the Catholics to not even BE "True Christians", and to consider them as liars, and reject their claims of being god's representative here on earth....

...for some BIZARRE reason, blindly accept EVERY THING IN THE BIBLE (If it matches their world view, and allows them to justify slavery, killing gays or witches, etc), even though 100% of it CAME from the Catholic Church.

The stuff from the HEBREW bible, the ONE JESUS FOLLOWED, they dismiss as "Oh, that's the OLD Testament...", unless they like a part that says to kill the gays, witches, non-believers, etc....or some of the ten commandments they feel still apply, and so on...and the Church, for the part "of the old testament" they include in the bible...is NOT the same as what's IN the Hebrew bible. They took out the stuff that was too Jewish, and, edited it to sound more Jesusy.

According to their own mythology, Jesus was GOD, and JEWISH, so, GOD IS JEWISH...and, died a Jew...but, the followers who are supposed to follow his teachings (He was supposed to be a rabbi), instead of not changing an iota of what Jesus believed, wanted to NOT BE JEWISH.




Its mind blowingly insane.




So, yeah, Atheists are far more likely to fly to mars, than into a world trade center.

Instead of shouting "Allah Akbar"!

The Atheists perhaps could shout "La 'Illah"!

Or, maybe, FOR THE NOODLES!

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Old 09-30-2016, 08:45 AM #6959
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Ultimately why should atheists or you yourself care either way, since on atheism there is no real purpose, value, or meaning to life at all?
I do not view atheists to see no meaning etc. in life, I think many atheists believe in a greater good, regardless of agreeing with a concept of God or not. When it comes to both atheists and religio's having such strong views one way or the other, the thought the physics of our universe alone might support, and even promote, life after death, seems to elude many of them. My view is that there might be a core underlying unity for all conscious beings which in a timeless center to everything, might be fully aware or conscious of the collective, if I may, and is the thing we in our limited disconnected (apparent) individual existences cannot fully fathom. Religions trying, atheists denying, which are their inherent natures. One side completely materialist, the other spiritualists, but both different sides of the same coin. May the yin-yang live on, adding to the diversity of experience which is primary for us, what we believe secondary. That's life, ain't it great, here we have choice; freedom to be as we will.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

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Old 09-30-2016, 12:31 PM #6960
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I do not view atheists to see no meaning etc. in life, I think many atheists believe in a greater good, regardless of agreeing with a concept of God or not. When it comes to both atheists and religio's having such strong views one way or the other, the thought the physics of our universe alone might support, and even promote, life after death, seems to elude many of them. My view is that there might be a core underlying unity for all conscious beings which in a timeless center to everything, might be fully aware or conscious of the collective, if I may, and is the thing we in our limited disconnected (apparent) individual existences cannot fully fathom. Religions trying, atheists denying, which are their inherent natures. One side completely materialist, the other spiritualists, but both different sides of the same coin. May the yin-yang live on, adding to the diversity of experience which is primary for us, what we believe secondary. That's life, ain't it great, here we have choice; freedom to be as we will.



[Clapping at the sentiment, wincing at the woo]

Variety is the spice of life.

If there was actual evidence, a cosmic unity via a collective consciousness, would be a beautiful thing to behold. And, also, at least, no one has blown anyone up in the name of collective consciousness either.

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