Old 08-23-2016, 03:51 PM #6929
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 08-23-2016, 11:40 PM #6930
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hehe, do americans actually exclaim that in the bedroom? I figured it was mostly a pr0n thing

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Old 08-24-2016, 01:20 AM #6931
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Default Re: LPF's Religion e

Here is one reason why I believe the Bible.
On May 14th, 1948 Israel became a nation once again, back in their own land, just like God said it would, after almost 2000 years after the diaspora, the despersion into all the world, and soon after the haulacost.

The Valley of Dry Bones
Ezekiel 37: 1-14 in the Tanakh (what Christians call The Old Testament).

The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

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Old 08-31-2016, 03:10 PM #6932
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What would be a good reason for a benevolent god to make people suffer?

We humans sometimes make animals suffer to gain medical/scientific insights, but we are not gods. If we were we would be all knowing and have no need to do such things.

As for the argument that suffering a couple of decades divides back to zero over an eternity in paradise: This is twisted math, and given the option of no suffering at all being available (to a god), why not opt for that instead?


Let's put that into a bit of a more realistic choice: Consider i have the financial means to, i consider three options:

1 - put you though the worst possible pain for a day but not cause any permanent phsycial harm, after that i'll pay for your immediate retirement and you are cared for for life.

2 - don't hurt you at all but still pay for your immediate retirement and you are cared for for life.

3 - leave you be as you are

Puting you through the pain serves me no benefit at all, so wouldn't it be really evil for me to offer you only option 1 while i can offer option 2 just as easily? Options 2 and 3 are reasonable choices here, but option 1 is just evil.

If somehow option 2 would not be available (for lack of omnipotence or something) i'd still offer you the choice between 1 and 3, not force you to take 1 if you don't want it.
My apologies for the delayed response, it's not intentional.

Assuming your argument is still -
1- A true god sees all, knows all, and can change all.
2 - A benevolent god would not let someone go through an agonizing death while being able to change that situation.
3 - Therefore there either is no god, or he/she/it is malevolent.


I still suggest you revise premise 1 & 2.
1- God gave people free will, and it's logically impossible to make someone do something freely. God being all powerful does not mean he can bring about the logically impossible.
2- I can acknowledge that much suffering in the world looks unjustified, but to make this point you need to determine if we're really warranted in inferring that when suffering looks unjustified it really is unjustified.
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Old 08-31-2016, 06:19 PM #6933
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Civilized nation, and religion of peace right? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/170160...as-an-atheist/
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Old 09-01-2016, 01:26 AM #6934
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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My apologies for the delayed response, it's not intentional.
I still suggest you revise premise 1 & 2.
1- God gave people free will, and it's logically impossible to make someone do something freely. God being all powerful does not mean he can bring about the logically impossible.
2- I can acknowledge that much suffering in the world looks unjustified, but to make this point you need to determine if we're really warranted in inferring that when suffering looks unjustified it really is unjustified.
I will not, certainly not on the first point:

Omnipotence of the god implies people (or any other creatures) have no free will. Either the god can control everything including peoples actions, or it is not truly omnipotent. These are mutually exclusive things.

On the second point there is room for argument, suffering could be justified for some reason unknown to us. Living in agony with certain death as the outcome instead of just dropping dead on the spot may serve some purpose i cannot grasp. I can't really see any reason other than outright sadism for making people die a slow and agonizing death, but perhaps a god does, setting an example or something like that.

This would make sence if people of faith were granted a quick painless death and only non-believers got a long painful one, but that doesn't really seem to be the case from observation. There seems to be little to no relation between believing and how painful or slow your end is.

Even religous people that get diagnosed with a painful terminal illness are not struck by lightning despite they pray for a quick end. It seems to be reversed here since most religions consider suicide a sin, to believers will suffer longer in hopeless situations than required.
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Old 09-01-2016, 01:35 AM #6935
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 09-02-2016, 01:28 PM #6936
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I will not, certainly not on the first point:

Omnipotence of the god implies people (or any other creatures) have no free will.
I disagree, check out -> Calvanism, Arminianism, Molinism, soft determinism, Libertarian free will, Compatibilism. Omnipotence certainly does not imply that free will is impossible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
This would make sence if people of faith were granted a quick painless death and only non-believers got a long painful one, but that doesn't really seem to be the case from observation. There seems to be little to no relation between believing and how painful or slow your end is.
If we aren't warranted in inferring that seemingly purposeless suffering is actually purposeless, and with a religious belief which rejects personal gain as the focus of life, why should the theist expect to suffer any less than the non-theist.
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Old 09-03-2016, 12:50 AM #6937
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'll have to disagree with those views. If something is omnipotent that means that i have no free will by definition: Omnipotence includes the ability to alter my choices, with or without me being aware of that. The idea that a god would not do so is just assumption and cannot be (dis)proven by any means.

As for the latter: I'm not really sure what the theist drive is. Perhaps some theists believe that suffering on earth is not even relevant since they will be going to paradise after and it will be forgotten over time or some reasoning like that.

This is perhaps the big disconnect between religious people and atheists: The former consider their life on earth as meaningless since it will all be resolved in an afterlife somehow, while atheists don't generally believe in an afterlife and all joy and grief is to be experienced in the finite interval between birth and death.

As such this does not have to be a huge problem, unless religion becomes violent. This is an obvious problem with islamic suicide bombers and such, though it seems less common in other religions.

For atheists preventing their own death is usually fairly high on the agenda since that would mean the end of things. I doubt there would ever be a thing like atheist suicide bombers, unless they were already suffering badly and death is near and unavoidable. If it ever comes to that you should fear people hooked to IV bags or something like that.
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Old 09-03-2016, 01:23 AM #6938
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

hey duke, remember when I said there is no fear in love and you disagreed with me?

1 John 4:18

probably out of context again though right?

makes me wonder why we're supposed to both love and fear the lord
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Old 09-04-2016, 12:12 AM #6939
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'd fear omnipotent beings at all times, that would seem a rationally wise thing to do.

Loving them is perhaps more dubious as you have little guarantee that love would be mutual. Not displeasing them is probably best, life must be difficult if you believe in such beings... or well, such a being, as having two or more of them would be another can of worms to logicians
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Old 09-06-2016, 04:39 PM #6940
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 09-06-2016, 05:02 PM #6941
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have been less than fully loving towards religions, I don't trust their motivations when most ask for your money and have those in charge living better than the average member..... but, I do appreciate someone who is spiritual, especially those who are spiritually motivated and minded without having a connection to a religion. Some see "spirituality" as being born from religious views, I beg to differ, we had those thoughts and feelings first and religions came into existence due to that capacity, not the other way arund.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 09-07-2016, 12:19 AM #6942
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The 'spiritual' thing is fairly popular in western europe. From 2015 figures in holland we get this:

- 17% believes in 'god', this could be protestant, catholic, jewish or muslim etc.
- 25% are atheists having none of it
- remaining 58 percent believe in 'something' to some degree

Overall 53% percent believe in an afterlife of some sort though, which would include the obvious 17% religious, but also a significant portion of those believing in 'something' but not an (active) member of a church.

One thing to note here is that religion is not that socially important here, we have little in terms of christian groups that do things not specifically religious. On the other hand religous holidays like christmas and eastern are often a time to visit family and such, also among non-christians.

Fund-raising christians are practially none existent here either. Some groups are supposed to donate 10% of their net income to church, but most are not. Things like passing around a bucket to put cash in would be unacceptable here.
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Old 09-08-2016, 08:14 PM #6943
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:38 AM #6944
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I guess that number is larger - i'd call him the prophet of islam as well although i am an atheist and do not condone is actions at all.

Then again i guess if you ask 'who killed about 1/3rd of the population of cambodia in the 70s' many people will respond 'pol pot' who don't agree with his actions either
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