Old 08-11-2016, 09:39 PM #6913
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

So good means all-good. Odd jump so far, but we'll go with it. How do you know your god is good in the first place?


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Old 08-13-2016, 10:05 PM #6914
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
So good means all-good...How do you know your god is good in the first place?
Ok Cyp, before I give you my answer to that question please answer me this first:

What would be your definition of Satan, the devil?
Even if you don't believe he exists, answer in the hypothetical, what would be your definition of Satan, the devil?
Would he be good, evil, partially good, partially evil, what?
Honest answer please.

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And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
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Old 08-14-2016, 12:54 AM #6915
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
So good means all-good. Odd jump so far, but we'll go with it. How do you know your god is good in the first place?
I guess that's the question not to be asked

If you have a god that is omnipotent and benevolent, how would you explain vast numbers of people, many of which actually believe in that god, to starve, die a horrible death in disease and such?

I hate to refer to it, but look at africa. There are vast numbers of people starving, struck by disease, failed harvests and what not. Most of those people believe in either the christian god or the islamic one (if they are different at all, which is to be debated).

Meanwhile there are hordes of atheists living in mostly western countries that have no shortage of food or shelter, and rarely get hit by lightning either.

This really doesn't add up to me: clearly believing in a some god will not improve your life statistically (it actually makes it worse if you look at correlation). Perhaps the unproven prospect of going to heaven somehow offsets this for some, but to me being well fed, sheltered and comfortable for a lifetime to disappear into nothing afterwards sounds a lot more appealing.

Religion usually makes suicide a sin for good reason: if you go fasttrack your way into heaven you probably would. Problems arise when people actually believe this is the case, which is mostly a thing in islam explaining the suicide attacks to rationally thinking human would otherwise undertake.
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Old 08-15-2016, 05:53 PM #6916
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
If you have a god that is omnipotent and benevolent, how would you explain vast numbers of people, many of which actually believe in that god, to starve, die a horrible death in disease and such?
Seems to usually boil down to three arguments;

1. Free will - people are supposed to deal with those kinds of issues themselves.

2. God works in mysterious ways that are possible to comprehend.

3. This life and the hardships suffered are temporary, the soul, and heavenly rewards, heaven, is eternal.
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Old 08-15-2016, 06:42 PM #6917
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I was reared as a Roman Catholic and another platitude was that God never gave us suffering that we could not handle with his grace. This, of course, neglects the people who die in agony from Cancer over periods of months. I am talking about pain that no narcotic can touch and the unremitting agony of knowing you are going to die, but can't until the suffering gets so bad that you finally expire after much undeserved suffering, all the while assisted suicide is an unforgivable sin and damns ones soul to eternal suffering again. Benevolence? I am a practicing atheist.
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:54 PM #6918
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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...I am a practicing atheist.
Works for me.

Ed

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Old 08-16-2016, 02:48 AM #6919
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

my response to some context claims. I found this video much after I had formulated very similar thoughts. it puts them together nicely



hmmm, not working?

it's this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR6vMAxIUBM
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:47 PM #6920
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Went to see the play "Act of God" on broadway over the weekend. Not much of a play, but it was entertaining for what I paid for the tickets.

One moment in particular was quite funny.

"God, why do bad things keep happening to good people?"

"To balance out all the good things happening to bad people!"
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Old 08-17-2016, 03:58 PM #6921
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I guess that's the question not to be asked

If you have a god that is omnipotent and benevolent, how would you explain vast numbers of people, many of which actually believe in that god, to starve, die a horrible death in disease and such?
My question to the atheist is - Are you saying it's impossible for God and suffering to coexist or that it's merely improbable that God and suffering can co-exist?


@ Shankenawake

I really wish you would stop turning to youtube garbage to support your atheistic beliefs, and I do mean garbage. Here I'll help.
RF Video
At 1:30 William Craig, a prominent Christian theologian and philosopher acknowledges Graham Oppy as being crazy smart and challenging to theism. I mean to read some of his work eventually but maybe you can beat me to it and have something else to post instead of garbage youtube videos.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:16 PM #6922
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure. youtube is as legitimate a platform for debate and ideas as any other. name another website with more videos related to the topic

I'm sorry you think that god being omniscient and thus planned to kill people and torture them is garbage. I maintain the claim
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:25 PM #6923
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm not bashing the platform, I'm bashing the content. As Cyp said earlier, it takes much more effort to refute garbage that it takes to create garbage, so I won't waste my time on the video. I just offered you a legit source of high scholarship to support your anti theist opinions, but if you want to stay mentally in the trash I cannot stop you.
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Old 08-17-2016, 04:33 PM #6924
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm sure you would understand why a non-believer would be hesitant to listen to a believer regarding which non-believer they should get their ideas from. my ideas are a conglomerate of my own and others, and not just one or two people. every person I hear with points I find valid may be incorporated

furthermore, have you checked the credentials of every maker of every video you found to be "garbage"? have all of them been made by "non-scholars"? even if that's the case, are you saying that only scholars can have good points? the layman is incapable of understanding and debating these things?

I tire or listening to old people justify god's murders with big words. some things are best kept simple.

I will see what this graham oppy says. I suspect his view differ very little from what you would call "garbage"
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501B by Blord LPC 826 660nm 325mW @?A g lens
PL660 from Laserbtb 660nm 1020mW

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Old 08-18-2016, 12:48 AM #6925
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
My question to the atheist is - Are you saying it's impossible for God and suffering to coexist or that it's merely improbable that God and suffering can co-exist?
I'd say that a true god -and- suffering people can only mean that this god is malevolent.

A true god sees all, knows all, and can change all. This can only lead me to conclude that this god knows people are suffering, knows that people do not like to suffer, but still does not interfere in the situation.

So from that logic i'd conclude that there either is no god, or he/she/it is malevolent. A benevolent god would not let someone go through an agonyzing death while being able to change that situation.

Personally i find the 'there is no god' explanation more likely, but if there were a god i'd have some beef with it.
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:29 AM #6926
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I'd say that a true god -and- suffering people can only mean that this god is malevolent.
Mathematically, any suffering with our 80 years on Earth is finite. Compared with an eternity in paradise, any mortal suffering is finite/∞ which is mathematically zero. Of course, the same could be said of Jesus' suffering. "Jesus had a shitty weekend for your sins"
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Old 08-18-2016, 02:05 PM #6927
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I'd say that a true god -and- suffering people can only mean that this god is malevolent.

A true god sees all, knows all, and can change all. This can only lead me to conclude that this god knows people are suffering, knows that people do not like to suffer, but still does not interfere in the situation.

So from that logic i'd conclude that there either is no god, or he/she/it is malevolent. A benevolent god would not let someone go through an agonyzing death while being able to change that situation.

Personally i find the 'there is no god' explanation more likely, but if there were a god i'd have some beef with it.
To be clear your argument is? -

1- A true god sees all, knows all, and can change all.
2 - A benevolent god would not let someone go through an agonizing death while being able to change that situation.

3 - Therefore there either is no god, or he/she/it is malevolent.

You need to modify premise 2 since it is not necessarily true, there could be good reasons for a god to permit suffering in the world.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:07 AM #6928
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What would be a good reason for a benevolent god to make people suffer?

We humans sometimes make animals suffer to gain medical/scientific insights, but we are not gods. If we were we would be all knowing and have no need to do such things.

As for the argument that suffering a couple of decades divides back to zero over an eternity in paradise: This is twisted math, and given the option of no suffering at all being available (to a god), why not opt for that instead?


Let's put that into a bit of a more realistic choice: Consider i have the financial means to, i consider three options:

1 - put you though the worst possible pain for a day but not cause any permanent phsycial harm, after that i'll pay for your immediate retirement and you are cared for for life.

2 - don't hurt you at all but still pay for your immediate retirement and you are cared for for life.

3 - leave you be as you are

Puting you through the pain serves me no benefit at all, so wouldn't it be really evil for me to offer you only option 1 while i can offer option 2 just as easily? Options 2 and 3 are reasonable choices here, but option 1 is just evil.

If somehow option 2 would not be available (for lack of omnipotence or something) i'd still offer you the choice between 1 and 3, not force you to take 1 if you don't want it.
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