Old 08-09-2016, 06:31 PM #6897
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I see what you're getting at, but I don't agree.

It sounds to me like saying that God is the objective basis for morality is the same as me saying that potatoes are my objective basis for morality.

In actual fact, who is to say that is incorrect. If anything it has more scientific basis as we have de facto evidence that potatoes do exist, whereas we don't that God exists. Religion is a faith.

Your last sentence above the last quote seems to be diverting the issue. I have no moral issues with a dis/belief in God , but it still doesn't answer why a faith based on a book which shows approval of wicked and inhumane actions as moral. The whole thing seems a bit of an oxymoron to me, and this notion that "my God is better than yours" and that you're going to hell for not believing in the "one true God" seems frankly incompatible with common sense and as someone who likes to think he's a relatively bright and apt human being that is my reason, if you will, for having a lack of religion.


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Old 08-09-2016, 06:53 PM #6898
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

yes, god made morals up, yet somehow they're objective not arbitrary. that's why people who believe in god never justify killing, because it's totally not ok under any circumstance. right? right?

remember when moses brought down the ten commandments and one was "thou shall not kill"? how long did it take before they were killing? (answer, not very long at all, like a day) oh but thats still an objective moral duty, not killing. that's why they subjectively interpreted it to mean it is ok to kill their enemies and take virgins for themselves. or no I'm sorry, god told them to kill. then later jesus really clarifies for us god's eternal unchanging will and moral duties by telling us we should love our enemies and turn the other cheek. see how objective and unchanging god's objective morals are, how could you even question someone who claims to derive their morals from this book? the temerity

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Old 08-09-2016, 08:11 PM #6899
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
yes, god made morals up, yet somehow they're objective not arbitrary.
Lookup objections to the Euthyphro dilemma.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
remember when moses brought down the ten commandments and one was "thou shall not kill"? how long did it take before they were killing?
"The misconception that “killing” and “murder” are synonymous is partially based on the King James mistranslation of the sixth commandment, which reads, “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). However, the word kill is a translation of the Hebrew word ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause. The correct rendering of this word is “murder,” and all modern translations render the command as “You shall not murder."



You claim to know a lot about scripture but it really doesn't seem like it with these statements. You're either ignorant of the most common and powerful objections to your arguments or you're being intellectually dishonest.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:00 AM #6900
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What about killing for dubious causes? Not without reason, but for reasons that probably would seem pretty ridiculous to most:

Can i kill someone:

- because he is an acute threat to my life (i.e. if i don't, i die)
- because slept with my wife
- becausly he verbally insulted me
- because he believes in some god i do not belive in or vice versa, and i want my belief to be majority
- because i want to test if my new gun is capable of killing someone
- because i want to test if this newly isolated strain of virus is lethal
- because i want to find out how long a human can live with a bigass hole in his liver

All of those things are not -strictly- pointless killings as something is attained, safety, revenge, scientific insight or whatever.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:44 AM #6901
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

As usual, a study of the word usage and context will give guidance to what the author was communicating.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:03 AM #6902
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Ah, I see. so throwing rocks at someone until they are dead for gathering firewood on the wrong day of the weeks is objectively good, a moral duty of god. it does not qualify as murder. good to know. so you're saying killing someone can sometimes be good, and other times it is bad. sounds like its subjective then. I thought you thought morality was objective? this whole time you agree with me that it's subjective? lying is usually bad except when you lie to the nazis about the jews hiding in your basement. killing is usually wrong except when done to protect the innocent. I agree then, morality is subjective. can you name an action that is always objectively wrong regardless of context or circumstance?

you talking about these:

(from this page)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

Problems[edit]
This horn of the dilemma also faces several problems:

No reasons for morality: If there is no moral standard other than God's will, then God's commands are arbitrary (i.e., based on pure whimsy or caprice). This would mean that morality is ultimately not based on reasons: "if theological voluntarism is true, then God's commands/intentions must be arbitrary; [but] it cannot be that morality could wholly depend on something arbitrary... [for] when we say that some moral state of affairs obtains, we take it that there is a reason for that moral state of affairs obtaining rather than another."[45] And as Michael J. Murray and Michael Rea put it, this would also "cas[t] doubt on the notion that morality is genuinely objective."[46] An additional problem is that it is difficult to explain how true moral actions can exist if one acts only out of fear of God or in an attempt to be rewarded by him.[47]
No reasons for God: This arbitrariness would also jeopardize God's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons. As Leibniz writes: "Where will be his justice and his wisdom if he has only a certain despotic power, if arbitrary will takes the place of reasonableness, and if in accord with the definition of tyrants, justice consists in that which is pleasing to the most powerful? Besides it seems that every act of willing supposes some reason for the willing and this reason, of course, must precede the act."[48]
Anything goes:[49] This arbitrariness would also mean that anything could become good, and anything could become bad, merely upon God's command. Thus if God commanded us "to gratuitously inflict pain on each other"[50] or to engage in "cruelty for its own sake"[51] or to hold an "annual sacrifice of randomly selected ten-year-olds in a particularly gruesome ritual that involves excruciating and prolonged suffering for its victims",[52] then we would be morally obligated to do so. As 17th-century philosopher Ralph Cudworth put it: "nothing can be imagined so grossly wicked, or so foully unjust or dishonest, but if it were supposed to be commanded by this omnipotent Deity, must needs upon that hypothesis forthwith become holy, just, and righteous."[53]
Moral contingency: If morality depends on the perfectly free will of God, morality would lose its necessity: "If nothing prevents God from loving things that are different from what God actually loves, then goodness can change from world to world or time to time. This is obviously objectionable to those who believe that claims about morality are, if true, necessarily true."[49] In other words, no action is necessarily moral: any right action could have easily been wrong, if God had so decided, and an action which is right today could easily become wrong tomorrow, if God so decides. Indeed, some have argued that divine command theory is incompatible with ordinary conceptions of moral supervenience.[54]
Why do God's commands obligate?: Mere commands do not create obligations unless the commander has some commanding authority. But this commanding authority cannot itself be based on those very commands (i.e., a command to obey commands), otherwise a vicious circle results. So, in order for God's commands to obligate us, he must derive commanding authority from some source other than his own will. As Cudworth put it: "For it was never heard of, that any one founded all his authority of commanding others, and others [sic] obligation or duty to obey his commands, in a law of his own making, that men should be required, obliged, or bound to obey him. Wherefore since the thing willed in all laws is not that men should be bound or obliged to obey; this thing cannot be the product of the meer [sic] will of the commander, but it must proceed from something else; namely, the right or authority of the commander."[55] To avoid the circle, one might say our obligation comes from gratitude to God for creating us. But this presupposes some sort of independent moral standard obligating us to be grateful to our benefactors. As 18th-century philosopher Francis Hutcheson writes: "Is the Reason exciting to concur with the Deity this, 'The Deity is our Benefactor?' Then what Reason excites to concur with Benefactors?"[56] Or finally, one might resort to Hobbes's view: "The right of nature whereby God reigneth over men, and punisheth those that break his laws, is to be derived, not from his creating them (as if he required obedience, as of gratitude for his benefits), but from his irresistible power."[57] In other words, might makes right.
God's goodness: If all goodness is a matter of God's will, then what shall become of God's goodness? Thus William P. Alston writes, "since the standards of moral goodness are set by divine commands, to say that God is morally good is just to say that he obeys his own commands... that God practises what he preaches, whatever that might be;"[50] Hutcheson deems such a view "an insignificant tautology, amounting to no more than this, 'That God wills what he wills.'"[58] Alternatively, as Leibniz puts it, divine command theorists "deprive God of the designation good: for what cause could one have to praise him for what he does, if in doing something quite different he would have done equally well?"[59] A related point is raised by C. S. Lewis: "if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the 'righteous Lord.'"[60] Or again Leibniz: "this opinion would hardly distinguish God from the devil."[61] That is, since divine command theory trivializes God's goodness, it is incapable of explaining the difference between God and an all-powerful demon.
The is-ought problem and the naturalistic fallacy: According to David Hume, it is hard to see how moral propositions featuring the relation ought could ever be deduced from ordinary is propositions, such as "the being of a God."[62] Divine command theory is thus guilty of deducing moral oughts from ordinary ises about God's commands.[63] In a similar vein, G. E. Moore argued (with his open question argument) that the notion good is indefinable, and any attempts to analyze it in naturalistic or metaphysical terms are guilty of the so-called "naturalistic fallacy."[64] This would block any theory which analyzes morality in terms of God's will: and indeed, in a later discussion of divine command theory, Moore concluded that "when we assert any action to be right or wrong, we are not merely making an assertion about the attitude of mind towards it of any being or set of beings whatever."[65]
No morality without God: If all morality is a matter of God's will, then if God does not exist, there is no morality. This is the thought captured in the slogan (often attributed to Dostoevsky) "If God does not exist, everything is permitted." Divine command theorists disagree over whether this is a problem for their view or a virtue of their view. Many argue that morality does indeed require God's existence, and that this is in fact a problem for atheism. But divine command theorist Robert Merrihew Adams contends that this idea ("that no actions would be ethically wrong if there were not a loving God") is one that "will seem (at least initially) implausible to many", and that his theory must "dispel [an] air of paradox."[66]
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:02 PM #6903
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I thought you thought morality was objective? this whole time you agree with me that it's subjective?
How many times until it sinks in Shaken? - "the assertion is if God does not exist then objective moral values and duties do not exist"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
can you name an action that is always objectively wrong regardless of context or circumstance?
I can, but you've stated you believe morality is subjective. The holocaust and the like are just matters of preference acceptable at that time to those people on your view.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
you talking about these:

(from this page)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma
Here's how you post a link with the assumption that the other person can follow it and read it if they wish without a no format copy/paste dump.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Euthyphro-Dilemma.html

BTW your c/p dump is titled "This horn of the dilemma also faces several problems", which doesn't really make sense in the context of the wiki, did you read it and take the time to understand it? Either way it's freely open to edit so I'm having a hard time trusting it.
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:23 PM #6904
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Whoops.. I never thought that this thread is really discussing a religion.
I've seen this thread since i joined the forum back in 2011, and based on the title i thought that the term "religion" doesn't mean a real religion or belief since this is a laser forum, instead i thought that the "religion" means the wavelength you chose for life, or some hobby, etc. Thus i never click this thread until now. BOOOMM!!! LOL <- *sorry for absurd thinking*

So where is the poll?? i cant see it.
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:34 PM #6905
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

so just because he is god, his edicts are objective and not arbitrary, which still puts the believer in the position of following his commands no matter how distateful they may be. at times it included killing children and, as I mentioned stoning people to death for gathering firewood on the wrong day of the week. ah but these are objective moral duties, or they were at one time at least, not arbitrary rules. it's all so clear to me now. you can really tell a divine entity made these rules up and not some primitive man, I mean, who wouldnt be able to see the divine brilliance in such rules.

"God's nature is unchangeable and wholly good; thus, His will is not arbitrary, and His declarations are always true. This solves both issues."

unchangeble, objective and wholly good. that's why jesus clarifies later that you may save a lost sheep on the sabbath, (this apperantly does not constitute "work") but presumably not gather firewood which you could potentially need to cook with or use to keep from freezing to death. (this is "work", should've thought about that on friday night, get stoned to death you sinner. (yes, I am aware the sabbath was actually saturday))

it's also why jesus says that he who is without sin should cast the first stone. just to clarify that god's position has remained unchanged and eternal. so I guess the jews were wrongfully stoning people to death for a long time, as presumably no one is without sin. begs the question why make death the punishment for so many things only to later declare that vengeance is his and that we should judge not, lest we be judged.

really baffling when you realize god has complete foreknowledge. I wonder why he mever mentioned to the jews before that they shouldnt be carrying out the punishments for the rules he laid out despite the fact that he commanded it.

but yeah, I can see how that qualifies as divine, wholly good, and unchanging. in the, 1984, 2+2=5 kind of way.

probably why jesus said that those who didnt follow all the commands would be called least in heaven (matthew 5:19). so you still get in, just no VIP lounge access I guess. strange when you consider that one of those commands was to honor your father and mother, and jesus says he came to turn children against their parents (matthew 10:35)

it was ok though, he'd only do that if their parents were non-believers naturally. there are a lot of asterisks in the ten commandments, another way you can tell they are divine

Honor thy father and thy mother*

(*unless your father and/or mother are non-believing sinners, in which case, you should totally not honor them)

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I can, but you've stated you believe morality is subjective. The holocaust and the like are just matters of preference acceptable at that time to those people on your view.
that's a pretty simplistic strawmanny way of looking at how subjective morality works. I know you know how it works, as you clearly use it, so instead I'll retort with this:

The conquest of canann and the like are just matters of preference acceptable at that time to those people on your view.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:18 PM #6906
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Continue to use the typical atheist go to and "bash/misrepresent/out of context" the old testament if you like, I've been faced with the issues you're presenting and through my studies I've found that your objections are bunk and/or don't consider their counter arguments. Maybe someone else will step in but personally I'm done with your old testament ramblings.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
that's a pretty simplistic strawmanny way of looking at how subjective morality works.
Is this not correct, or can you not swallow your own views on morality.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:40 PM #6907
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

yeah, just claim I "bash/misrepresent/out of context" all the time, thats an easy go-to claim to justify your position. I suppose it's possible you've addresed all my "typical atheist claims" before, although many of them I came up with myself and are not paraphrased versions of someone else's arguement. to me that says that the problems with religion are obvious to a large amount of people, resulting in many different people having the same arguement, and to you I suppose it means I am unimaginitive and unoriginal as well as ignorant in my opinions and views

I like that you use the term "old testament ramblings". I'll take it as an admission that your god sucks at continuity in story and meaning. given that you think the entire book is the inspired word of god and is wholly true and entirely relevant.

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Old 08-10-2016, 08:40 PM #6908
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by astralist View Post
Whoops.. I never thought that this thread is really discussing a religion.
I've seen this thread since i joined the forum back in 2011, and based on the title i thought that the term "religion" doesn't mean a real religion or belief since this is a laser forum, instead i thought that the "religion" means the wavelength you chose for life, or some hobby, etc. Thus i never click this thread until now. BOOOMM!!! LOL <- *sorry for absurd thinking*

So where is the poll?? i cant see it.
there isn't a poll that I'm aware of, it's just a discussion megathread.

EDIT: I'm silly, the first post mentions a poll. it must have disappeared.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:01 PM #6909
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I suppose it's possible you've addresed all my "typical atheist claims" before, although many of them I came up with myself and are not paraphrased versions of someone else's arguement. to me that says that the problems with religion are obvious to a large amount of people, resulting in many different people having the same arguement, and to you I suppose it means I am unimaginitive and unoriginal as well as ignorant in my opinions and views
I'm no scholar, but I know that a chasm exists between high scholarship and popular beliefs about religion. You're doing atheism a disservice by fervently spouting whatever arguments you made up rather than digging into both atheist and christian scholarship.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:26 PM #6910
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm no scholar, but I know that a chasm exists between high scholarship and popular beliefs about religion. You're doing atheism a disservice by fervently spouting whatever arguments you made up rather than digging into both atheist and christian scholarship.
well it's not like I live in a vacuum. of course my ideas are influenced by others, but I also do a lot of thinking on the matter myself. it's an interesting and difficult challenge to come up with an arguement that someone else hadnt thought of in some form before. there have been a lot of humans you know. probably where the saying "nothing new under the sun" came from

i may grant that you are more familiar with the bible than I. you seem to think my understanding of it is flawed in every instance. I may grant that it is flawed in some. but let me ask this: am I obligated to become intimately familiar with it from cover to cover before refuting or attempting to refute any claims within it? if that is the case, I would ask you why and how you refute islam having not learned arabic and read the quran and hadiths in the original arabic, as islam says is requred to understand them completely. on the surface, niether the quran nor the bible seem inherantly true to me. why does god demand that a person go to so much trouble? even if I did read the entire bible 100 times you would still claim the same things. as evidence I point to the disagreement among christians themselves and the continued fracturing of denominations. god sure doesnt seem to mind how confusing his word is or the fact that it is obviously impossible to establish it's superiority to any other holy book, in practical application
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:21 AM #6911
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

How do you know your god is omnibenevolent, mr. duke? Can you prove it? What criteria would you use to establish this?
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:58 AM #6912
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Shakenawake

I don't think you live in a vacuum, but I do feel that a lot of your objections are not brought up against their common counters which is something I've come to expect from a passionate atheist.


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I may grant that it is flawed in some. but let me ask this:am I obligated to become intimately familiar with it from cover to cover before refuting or attempting to refute any claims within it?
Certainly not, but different refutations will require different levels knowledge of the claims.


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How do you know your god is omnibenevolent, mr. duke? Can you prove it? What criteria would you use to establish this?
As I understand it, philosophically omnibenevolence is a complicated debate, but I think it follows that an omniscient, omnipotent, and good God would also be omnibenevolent.



And in the news - Michael Phelps Says Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life Saved Him From Suicide
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