Old 07-14-2016, 12:02 AM #6865
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm not sure about US practices, but there is a lot of fearmongering about the whole ordeal out there.

I trust the dutch system well enough to ensure i'm actually (brain)dead before anything gets removed. You can specify things here though, such as which tissues you are willing to donate, so you could opt not to donate things that require you to be braindead but still maintained by life support only.

Trading human organs is forbidden here in any case, though surgeons do get paid their wages for performing the actual transplant so they might have financial motive. With the europe wide donation system i think the chances are very small that the doctor pronoucing death would even know the one performing the transplant though, as the match is solely made on organ compatibility at the moment.


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Old 07-15-2016, 05:36 PM #6866
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



Edit: So far as organ donation is concerned, an opt out default system would be great, as opposed to the current opt in one.

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Old 07-15-2016, 06:16 PM #6867
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That son of a bitch!

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Edit: So far as organ donation is concerned, an opt out default system would be great, as opposed to the current opt in one.
Here in Washington state there is no default, they ask you everytime do you want to be an organ donor. That's the way it should be everywhere.

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Old 07-15-2016, 06:30 PM #6868
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Here in Washington state there is no default, they ask you everytime do you want to be an organ donor. That's the way it should be everywhere.

Alan
It's not asked specifically in NJ, but there is a checkbox, you check yes or no, when renewing license.

A system whereby there is only the "no" option, would be better IMO.

"I do not wish to be an organ donor, and allow my organs to be used to save lives."

As I see it, even if there is a profit made, from the sale of my organs and tissues, if it helps someone, it's still better than if my body is simply buried.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:30 AM #6869
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

There are several systems possible.

In holland we have a system where you -can- register your explicit wish to be an organ donor or not. This register is the primary they look at.

You can also opt to leave the choice to your family, which is the default if you don't register at all. Personally i'd suggest registering your yes or no vote though, as this is a difficult subject to discuss with people that just lost a loved one.

As organ donation is often quite time sensitive you really want to avoid 'the talk' where a doctor brings the sad news of someone expiring, bringing up the question of organ donation within a few sentences of that due to time constraints.

If you register your preference it avoids that completely, and you can be specific about excluding certain organs too. You could for example excluding skin and eyes if you care about the appearance of your corpse or have any spiritual/religious reason that preclude you from donating specific organs or tissues.
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Old 07-20-2016, 06:47 AM #6870
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Glad to see so much replies here.
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:58 PM #6871
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Here in Washington state there is no default, they ask you everytime do you want to be an organ donor. That's the way it should be everywhere.
Doesn't sound good to me.

By the time that question is actually relevant i'd probably unable to answer it, and as long as i'm able to answer, the answer would probably be "not right now"
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:30 AM #6872
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Doesn't sound good to me.

By the time that question is actually relevant i'd probably unable to answer it, and as long as i'm able to answer, the answer would probably be "not right now"
Just to be clear on this, it's everytime you renew your drivers license, state I.D., or enhanced state I.D., and when they think you can't drive anymore you must forfeit your drivers licence. When you are 70 and over you must always go in in person to renew, if you are not capable of speaking for yourself, a relative must bring you in to answer the questions and sign for you if needed.

Another subject worth bringing up here. We all know that when we pass on we are nearly always either buried or cremated. Did you know that in some locations and some whole countries that cremation is required because they don't have enough room for cemeteries. I can tell you that here and in most parts of the U.S. there is enough room but burial is very expensive. What do some of you think about this?

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Old 07-21-2016, 05:48 PM #6873
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Because we value well-being. Killing for sport is not good for well-being. How many times must I say this?
You keep stepping out of the hypothetical I set for you to answer from. If the earth becomes overpopulated and killing for sport becomes good for well-being then what? How would you show it's objectively wrong.


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Body autonomy takes priority - this is one aspect of well-being. We don't require individuals to donate blood or organs to save lives, even if the potential donors are dead. Even if the potential donor was driving drunk and seriously injured someone that needed blood, it is not required.

We are not required to give the use of our bodies to others.
I would view a mother who doesn't have access to baby formula but denies her infant breast milk because it inconveniences her, as objectively wrong. But since "We are not required to give the use of our bodies to others", Would you?


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Consent to *** is not consent to becoming pregnant. Consent to becoming pregnant is not consent to remaining pregnant.
Are we not responsible for our actions and weighing the possible consequences of those actions?


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We have reasons for defining measurements as objective. We have reasons for defining well-being as objectively beneficial. Can you think of a good reason to define chocolate as best? If so, maybe it's not a bad idea. The fact remains, there are 12 inches in a foot BECAUSE WE SAY SO. Refusing to abide by this consensus causes problems.
So if the consensus was chocolate ice cream tastes best then it would become an objective fact that "chocolate ice cream tastes best" and those that liked vanilla best would be wrong? Your presenting this as if anything could be made objective by consensus. A square could have three sides by consensus, relying on consensus for an "objective" worldview is the problem.
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Old 07-21-2016, 07:00 PM #6874
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Another subject worth bringing up here. We all know that when we pass on we are nearly always either buried or cremated. Did you know that in some locations and some whole countries that cremation is required because they don't have enough room for cemeteries. I can tell you that here and in most parts of the U.S. there is enough room but burial is very expensive. What do some of you think about this?

Alan
I think that all adults should at some point make their wishes known with regard to preference, and to make arrangements if those preference require a large expense.

Personally I do not care in the least what happens to my body after I die. Hopefully some of my organs can be used to help others, but that's where my preferences end.

That said, I am considering making specific arrangements (coffin, plot purchase) in the event of my death, for the sake of making it easier on my family. My only real concern would be to cause as little grief and stress to them as possible. To date, all of my close relatives have been buried in accordance with either jewish of christian traditions. Personally I think having ashes dumped at sea, as soon as possible, and an irish wake, would be best.
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:39 PM #6875
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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It's not asked specifically in NJ, but there is a checkbox, you check yes or no, when renewing license.

A system whereby there is only the "no" option, would be better IMO.

"I do not wish to be an organ donor, and allow my organs to be used to save lives."

As I see it, even if there is a profit made, from the sale of my organs and tissues, if it helps someone, it's still better than if my body is simply buried.
I'm actually surprised to see you say this, as a system whereby everyone is assumed to be accepting of having their organs used unless they explicitly speak otherwise is quite un-libertarian. (what's that, authoritarian?) Given your replies in the gun thread I've often assumed you a vibrant libertarian and believer of individual rights (like myself somewhat; I'm a libertarian centrist who for someone resident in the UK has extremely right-of-typical views about gun ownership).

As for religion itself, I reckon I've replied to this thread on more than one occasion, I've never quite known whether to describe myself as atheist or agnostic. I suspect agnostic, because as I've matured I've adopted different worldviews, particularly more accepting of things I/we do not know or are uncertain about. I don't know if there's a god, there probably isn't one, maybe there is, but I don't really bother about it.

What does grind my gears is how organised religion has caused so much tragedy in the past and as such I identify being "religious" and "believing in god" and for that matter being moral to be totally seperate things. A lot of people know what I mean when I say I believe there could be a god, but I'm not religious, and I usually get responses along the line of "hear hear". I think although a sizeable amount of people still believe there is/could be a god, I think indeed the idea of "religion" as a thing is definitely dying. As a system of control it's well and truly dead.
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:00 PM #6876
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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If the earth becomes overpopulated and killing for sport becomes good for well-being...
That's not good for well-being. Decreasing someone else's to improve your own is not okay. Everyone knows this, and you're still arguing for a position that neither of us hold.

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I would view a mother who doesn't have access to baby formula but denies her infant breast milk because it inconveniences her, as objectively wrong. But since "We are not required to give the use of our bodies to others", Would you?
This depends on the scenario and the intent. You'll notice circumstances and intent are usually taken into consideration in court cases as well, because not everything is black and white like "you shall not kill"

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Are we not responsible for our actions and weighing the possible consequences of those actions?
You know there is a possibility you will be hit by a drunk driver when you drive home from work tomorrow, and yet you drive home and assume that risk. Does that mean you consent to being hit by a drunk driver?

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A square could have three sides by consensus, relying on consensus for an "objective" worldview is the problem.
It actually could. Words only mean what we collectively agree they mean. We'd probably need a new word for something with 4 sides, however.

Why are you okay with a foot being 12 inches? Surely you understand that is only objective by consensus.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:16 PM #6877
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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That's not good for well-being. Decreasing someone else's to improve your own is not okay. Everyone knows this, and you're still arguing for a position that neither of us hold.
How does everyone know this?

My position is that on atheism objective moral values and duties do not exist. You hold that on atheism objective moral values and duties do exist. We are each arguing from positions we hold.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You know there is a possibility you will be hit by a drunk driver when you drive home from work tomorrow, and yet you drive home and assume that risk. Does that mean you consent to being hit by a drunk driver?.
I was not challenging the statement "Consent to *** is not consent to becoming pregnant." with that question, but it's a valid question. So I'll put it to you again.

Are we not responsible for our actions and weighing the possible consequences of those actions?



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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Why are you okay with a foot being 12 inches? Surely you understand that is only objective by consensus.
I'm on board with inches, a measurement that exists in reality, but you're really stretching the meaning of the word subjective implying the best tasting ice cream flavor could be made an objective fact.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:35 PM #6878
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I'm actually surprised to see you say this, as a system whereby everyone is assumed to be accepting of having their organs used unless they explicitly speak otherwise is quite un-libertarian. (what's that, authoritarian?) Given your replies in the gun thread I've often assumed you a vibrant libertarian and believer of individual rights (like myself somewhat; I'm a libertarian centrist who for someone resident in the UK has extremely right-of-typical views about gun ownership).
I certainly hold a lot of libertarian views, and do believe strongly in individual rights, and choices. Letting people chose their own courses of action, and natural consequences that result.

With regard to organs though, having only a "no" option would still be an option, but it would steer more people to donation. While someday within the next few decades we'll probably be able to clone and print replacement hearts, lungs, corneas, etc,. currently that technology does not exist, and thousands of people who can be saved, are left to die. Despite the existence of resources, organs, that can be used to keep people alive. It's just a horrible inefficient waste.

This also brings us to another issue, which is at what point should individual rights and choices be honored, and dismissed. IMO, the answer is that once we die, the choice should be left entirely to those still living.

In the not too distant future, the question of what it means to die, and be dead or alive will also need to be addressed by societies.
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Old 07-22-2016, 12:20 AM #6879
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Another subject worth bringing up here. We all know that when we pass on we are nearly always either buried or cremated. Did you know that in some locations and some whole countries that cremation is required because they don't have enough room for cemeteries. I can tell you that here and in most parts of the U.S. there is enough room but burial is very expensive. What do some of you think about this?

Alan
Personally i have no problem with cremation, it's what my family has been doing for as long as i can remember. I really don't care what happens to my remains once i'm dead, and it would seem silly to reserve land to burry them that could be put to better use.

Then again there are some interesting options, including being burried in a forest having a tree planted on top of you. Many of the molecules from your decomposition would be nutrients to the tree and you'd essentially be embedded in it to some degree. Not the thing for me i suppose, but if people would like to have a living memento in the form of a tree built from their corpse, why not
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:51 AM #6880
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yes, we should (to an extent) think before acting. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm on board with inches, a measurement that exists in reality
Why are you okay with it being objectively 12, though? It's 12 purely through collective agreement, just to pick a number, and no other reason. Why is that okay, but other things aren't?

Is element 116 objectively called Livermorium? We collectively decided it should be Livermorium (less than 5 years ago, mind you), just to give it a name roughly associated with its inception, and no other reason. We define things as objective all the time.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
you're really stretching the meaning of the word subjective implying the best tasting ice cream flavor could be made an objective fact.
Just like anything else, only if we have a good reason that provides benefit that most people would agree with to define it as such. I can't think of a good reason, and neither can anyone else, so chocolate isn't objectively the best.
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