Old 06-29-2016, 03:22 AM #6849
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm curious as to what your intentions are for asking this question?
I've answered you twice now. Here's a third time:
I asked the question to know where you stand on the issue.

What is confusing about that? I'm going to ignore you if you ask a fourth time.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If morality is like the degree or radian of a circle, what is "morality's circle"?
I've already answered this as well. Any parallel I draw will not be identical to the parallel to another measurement, and the point of an analogy isn't to discuss the differences. Your attempting to discuss the differences is not productive at best, and splitting hairs at worst.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I was not trying to say "any concept man invents is subjective". The radian is objective.
To recap, you said previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
[morality] pops into existence when sentient life decides to define it and beyond that definition there is no objective basis.
And yet the radian popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The gallon popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The "rule of two" popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The IEEE-488 protocol popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The hokey pokey routine popped into existence when man decided to define it.

I could go on all day with examples of things we've defined as objective.

Is your response going to be "what is a gallon's circle" or something like that now?


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Old 06-29-2016, 02:44 PM #6850
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I've answered you twice now. Here's a third time:
My apologies for the redundancy.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I've already answered this as well. Any parallel I draw will not be identical to the parallel to another measurement, and the point of an analogy isn't to discuss the differences. Your attempting to discuss the differences is not productive at best, and splitting hairs at worst.
Call it discussing the differences or call it discussing the similarities, either way my objections are that the analogy is ineffective in showing morality is objective in the same way radians are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
To recap, you said previously:

[morality] pops into existence when sentient life decides to define it and beyond that definition there is no objective basis.

And yet the radian popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The gallon popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The "rule of two" popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The IEEE-488 protocol popped into existence when man decided to define it.
The hokey pokey routine popped into existence when man decided to define it.

I could go on all day with examples of things we've defined as objective.

Is your response going to be "what is a gallon's circle" or something like that now?
I can see you didn't understand what I was getting at with the "If morality is like the degree or radian of a circle, what is "morality's circle"? question.

All of your examples refer to something that exists objectively.

Radians - > angular measurement (objective)
Gallons - > volume (objective)
hokey pokey - > a particular set of movements to a particular song (objective)
morality/good/evil - > you fill in the blank (objective)

You have not provided an objective base for morality.

If sentient life from another planet showed up, we could objectively communicate what radians, gallons, and the hokey pokey are. They may call it by another name or units, but they exist objectively. Now if they believed killing children for sport was not morally evil, how would you communicate that this is objectively evil?
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:01 AM #6851
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You have not provided an objective base for morality.
Yes I have. It is based on improving well-being and reducing unnecessary suffering. Cutting off your head is objectively worse for your well-being than not cutting off your head. We value well-being because not valuing well-being makes things worse for most parties involved. You actually seem to agree with that for the most part. You agree well-being is valuable. So why continue to argue against it?
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:04 AM #6852
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It's a fair argument.

People often agree that things like stealing from, killing or maiming other humans is immoral.

But even to that we make exceptions, such as certain religious groups deeming it okay to kill someone for engaging in (consensual) homo***ual activity, or even for simply not believing as they do.

It would be VERY difficult to explain why this is the case with objective arguments.

As an atheist i find it difficult how some muslims reason it is a good thing to kill any jew, why it was a good thing for the romans to kill any christian at some point etc. In fact i would not see any reason to harm someone that is not a direct threat to me or someone i care about.

The lack of believe in an afterlife has some benefit here: you don't see atheists in bomb vests blowing themselves up or anything like that. Once free from religion there is no good reason to perform any act that results in your death (which is final, no afterlife, no reward). The only thing i could think of is revenge if your days are already numbered due to disease or something like that.

Even then i would not expect an atheist to do something like that. There is no need to make a statement. If death is near suicide in a nice way like opiate overdose is just more attractive
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:15 AM #6853
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You have not provided an objective base for morality.
Yes I have. It is based on improving well-being and reducing unnecessary suffering. Cutting off your head is objectively worse for your well-being than not cutting off your head. We value well-being because not valuing well-being makes things worse for most parties involved. You actually seem to agree with that for the most part. You agree well-being is valuable. So why continue to argue against it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If sentient life from another planet showed up... if they believed killing children for sport was not morally evil, how would you communicate that this is objectively evil?
Because well-being is objectively good. They could claim well-being is not objectively good, but they would be wrong. Again, you and I both agree they would be wrong.

If they claimed the square root of 9 was 2, and that 2 squared was 9, how would you communicate that this is objectively wrong? If they made any objectively false statement, how would you show them it is objectively false?
Maybe they don't value logic. But what logic can you show to convince that they should value logic? Is logic subjective simply because we may not be able to communicate to an alien life form that it is true? Of course not.
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Old 07-01-2016, 12:37 AM #6854
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Because well-being is objectively good. They could claim well-being is not objectively good, but they would be wrong. Again, you and I both agree they would be wrong.
I think one could chip away at that though.

Let's consider someone addicted to opiates nearing withdrawal. Giving them opiates would certainly increase their immediate well-being, but it might not be in their best interest in the long run.

On the other extreme you state that killing children for sports would be a universally 'bad' thing. This would certainly be the case for those children, but on an overpopulated planet humanity might actually benefit as a whole if this, however cruel, practive was adopted in some places. The 'for sports' aspect obviously is not a requirement at all.

Feeding helpless people to the lions may also seem like an evil thing to do, but not if you are looking at it from the perspective of a lion
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:21 AM #6855
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
Giving them opiates would certainly increase their immediate well-being
I disagree. Why do you say that? Because they would "feel better"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
On the other extreme you state that killing children for sports would be a universally 'bad' thing. This would certainly be the case for those children, but on an overpopulated planet humanity might actually benefit as a whole
By that logic, it could be considered moral if a gang robbed an old woman - it would be bad for the woman but good for the 17 members. Murdering someone to harvest their organs to save 10 people's life would be moral. Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? Not usually. Not if you must decrease someone else's well-being.

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
Feeding helpless people to the lions may also seem like an evil thing to do, but not if you are looking at it from the perspective of a lion
Right. But I don't, you don't, and neither does anyone else. While I do value the life of an animal, I value the life of a fellow human many orders of magnitude higher. I would personally and gladly slaughter fifty chickens to feed a group of children.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:27 AM #6856
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We would probably agree on what would be the right thing to do, but that doesn't make the choice objectively right, just a democratic one. So no killing kids for sports or mugging old ladies by gangs if you ask us. If the panel were us plus the 17 gang members (who are technically humans) we'd lose the vote 17-2 though

As far as the opiates go: feeling well is an important aspect of well-being. Being physically healthy but suffering from depression is not a good state to be in. Suffering withdrawal is not a good state to be in either, even if it is not an immediate health threath.

In some cases things are just not that easy. Killing someone for an organ transplant is obviously illegal, but i can imagine doing so to save my own life if it was the only option left. It would be weighing the options though, but if it provided me with a normal live expectancy versus imminent death it could be the logical choice. We don't have the death penalty here, and the expected sentence would probably be something in the order of 8 years effective prison time. Since i'm statistically likely to live for far more than those 8 years it would be a logical choice even if the risk of getting caught was near certain.

One thing preventing hunting people for organs is transplant incompatibility, just rounding up some random person that wouldn't really be missed that much is not likely to give you a compatible organ. If it were i think this sort of thing would be far more common.
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:02 AM #6857
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
We would probably agree on what would be the right thing to do, but that doesn't make the choice objectively right, just a democratic one.
Would you also say the choice to have 360 degrees in a circle is an objective fact, or a democratic one? Are you sure the two options are mutually exclusive?
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:26 PM #6858
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Yes I have. It is based on improving well-being and reducing unnecessary suffering. Cutting off your head is objectively worse for your well-being than not cutting off your head. We value well-being because not valuing well-being makes things worse for most parties involved. You actually seem to agree with that for the most part. You agree well-being is valuable. So why continue to argue against it?
Knowing the implications of theism vs non-theism is vastly important, especially on the issue of morality. One reason I reject atheism is that my moral experience leads me to believe morality is objective, and atheism doesn't support objective morality. If you convinced me that morality had an objective foundation on atheism then I would have one less reason for rejecting atheism. Likewise if I convinced you morality had no objective basis on atheism you would have to consider those implications and consider that either your moral experience is illusory or god does exist.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Because well-being is objectively good. They could claim well-being is not objectively good, but they would be wrong. Again, you and I both agree they would be wrong.
Where your description falls short is when two individuals/groups well-being comes into conflict, how is an objective moral decision made then. Imagine this strange alien culture operates in such a way that hunting children for sport increases their overall well-being..

I know this may seem silly and we both agree this is objectively wrong, but If morality truly has an objective foundation on atheism then it should have an answer to the question why it would be objectively wrong.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
If they claimed the square root of 9 was 2, and that 2 squared was 9, how would you communicate that this is objectively wrong? If they made any objectively false statement, how would you show them it is objectively false?
Maybe they don't value logic. But what logic can you show to convince that they should value logic? Is logic subjective simply because we may not be able to communicate to an alien life form that it is true? Of course not.
Mathematical proofs, presenting facts, and demonstrating logic. All of these would demonstrate the objectivity of these things.
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:33 PM #6859
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Where your description falls short is when two individuals/groups well-being comes into conflict
For example? Remember my claim was that some actions are objectively worse for wellbeing than others, NOT that all possible actions can be evaluated as clear-cut. I could walk at 3mph pace, or 3.1mph pace when going to the park to meet a friend. Is one objectively more moral? Probably not.

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Imagine this strange alien culture operates in such a way that hunting children for sport increases their overall well-being
How?

It just looks to me like you're desperately grasping now. Resorting to alien lifeforms doing contradictory things?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I know this may seem silly...
Oh yes. Allow me to demonstrate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If morality truly has an objective foundation on atheism then it should have an answer to the question why it would be objectively wrong.
If a foot has an objective foundation, then it should have an answer to the question why it would be objectively composed of 12 inches.

Aside from "we all decided collectively there would be 12", You can't explain why there are 12 inches instead of 10, but my invisible sky-cousin can.
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Old 07-08-2016, 12:02 AM #6860
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Would you also say the choice to have 360 degrees in a circle is an objective fact, or a democratic one? Are you sure the two options are mutually exclusive?
It's a democratic choice, if even that. Depending on what field of science you consider circles are 360 degrees or 2 pi in circumference. Other values like 400 or 60 segments/degrees have also been used. There is no -fundamental- reason a circle should be divided into 360 pieces, if it's a pizza 8 or 12 ar far more common values.

What is a fact is that half a circle will have half the number of divisions in it compared to a full one - regardless if that is 180 degrees, 1 pi, or 6 slices of pizza.

In fact -all- our SI units are chosen arbitrarily in essence. There is an alternative in natural units such as planck units or those derived from quantum chromodynamics, but those are pretty impractical for everyday use.

In some cases the exact ratio between impractial IS the official definition though, such as the meter as a function of the second.
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Old 07-08-2016, 01:04 PM #6861
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
How?

It just looks to me like you're desperately grasping now. Resorting to alien lifeforms doing contradictory things?
You cant answer the question and I'm the one "desperately grasping"? For such an obviously immoral action this should be easy for you to explain why this is objectively wrong.


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For example? Remember my claim was that some actions are objectively worse for wellbeing than others, NOT that all possible actions can be evaluated as clear-cut. I could walk at 3mph pace, or 3.1mph pace when going to the park to meet a friend. Is one objectively more moral? Probably not.
Abortion would be an example of a conflict of well-being.


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If a foot has an objective foundation, then it should have an answer to the question why it would be objectively composed of 12 inches.

Aside from "we all decided collectively there would be 12", You can't explain why there are 12 inches instead of 10, but my invisible sky-cousin can.
If the world collectively decided chocolate ice cream tasted the best, would that make it an objective fact. Of course not, it's dependent on the subjective experience. You keep referring to objective units to try to illustrate that a moral experience is objective, it's not working.
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Old 07-12-2016, 01:21 AM #6862
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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For such an obviously immoral action this should be easy for you to explain why this is objectively wrong.
Because we value well-being. Killing for sport is not good for well-being. How many times must I say this?

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Abortion would be an example of a conflict of well-being.
Body autonomy takes priority - this is one aspect of well-being. We don't require individuals to donate blood or organs to save lives, even if the potential donors are dead. Even if the potential donor was driving drunk and seriously injured someone that needed blood, it is not required.

We are not required to give the use of our bodies to others. Is it an admirable thing to do? Usually. Are you a monster for refusing to donate blood? Probably not. There are many reasons why someone would refuse someone else the use of their body.

Consent to *** is not consent to becoming pregnant. Consent to becoming pregnant is not consent to remaining pregnant.

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If the world collectively decided chocolate ice cream tasted the best, would that make it an objective fact. Of course not, it's dependent on the subjective experience.
We have reasons for defining measurements as objective. We have reasons for defining well-being as objectively beneficial. Can you think of a good reason to define chocolate as best? If so, maybe it's not a bad idea. The fact remains, there are 12 inches in a foot BECAUSE WE SAY SO. Refusing to abide by this consensus causes problems.
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Old 07-13-2016, 12:04 AM #6863
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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We are not required to give the use of our bodies to others. Is it an admirable thing to do? Usually. Are you a monster for refusing to donate blood? Probably not. There are many reasons why someone would refuse someone else the use of their body.
I think everyone should have a choice in this. I don't donate parts of me whilst alive, but if i were to die i've given consent to proceed with organ donation and such (it seems unlikely i'll miss any of them since i'm dead at that point).

One thing i think should be changed is that people who have been registered organ donors for some time should get priority in receiving donated organs. This would probably help to motivate people to make a choice: register as a donor if you want to be a recepient when the time comes, or stay out of this whole system regardless if you have an organ to donate or the need to receive one.

If no compatible organ donor can be found i have no problem with donation to a non-donor, which is better than letting it go to waste, but i'd prefer the recepient to be someone with a bit bigger chance of rejection who is a donor himself over a non-donor that is a slightly better match.

As for giving blood: i might do so if there is a shortage and people were actually dying because of this. The chances of this being the case are slim though as i don't have an interesting blood type (plain old 0+) which is quite common at least in western europe.
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Old 07-13-2016, 03:54 AM #6864
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Here in the U.S. It can be dangerous to be an organ donor. Medical care is a very big business here, and there is a reason that hospitals are the third leading cause of death in the U.S. Sometimes you are worth more dead than alive.



And the reason that tourists disappear in Brazil.



If you think such things don't happen then you are too naive and innocent, go on believing that, they say that "what you don't know won't hurt you".

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