Old 06-24-2016, 12:52 AM #6833
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You better hope that Turkey is never allowed into the E.U. or there's going to be a lot more of them.

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Old 06-24-2016, 02:16 AM #6834
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

not allowing me to stone people to death for gathering firewood on the wrong day of the week oppresses my religious views.

not allowing me to oppress others oppresses me.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:06 AM #6835
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Don't even go there. It seems there is a whole movement out there that believe it should somehow be banned to offend religious people in any way.

Not just directly insulting them, but by doing things like mowing your lawn on a sunday (or rather eat pork in public or food at all during daytime during ramadan) etc.

I find this idiotic. Perhaps i don't like it if people state that atheists will go to hell, i'm not human or descended from a gorilla for believing in it and what not. I will however defend your rights to say all those things about and to me - and with that my right to respond it kind (though i rarely do that).
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:12 AM #6836
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Sometimes I wonder if religion is an overall positive or negative to the human race. The negatives are obvious, but it has some decent positives. It can give people a sense of purpose, and motivate them to accomplish greatness due to a belief that what we do in this life matters. I've seen some strict atheists fall into depression and just have a "life sucks and nothing matters" attitude about things. Such an attitude isn't really productive for anything.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:36 AM #6837
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That is an interesting issue. I'm a fairly straightforward atheist and have a fair knowledge of evolution through a background in biochemistry.

The tendency to believe in some kind of god, spirit or similar seems universal among humans. There are many different believe systems, but even with modern science being available and accessible to many people, still over 90% of people on earth remain religious.

Since people often spend a fair amount of resources on practices related to their religion, it would only make sense for this behaviour to survive if there is also some benefit in it.

What that benefit is has not really been found however. It could simply have to do with feeling united with a group of peers (with similar genetic makeup) and prevailing over others through collaboration. It could also be a motivation not to give up even if you rationally have a very slim, but non-zero chance of surviving something.

Perhaps we will know more about this soon though, as atheist populations are growing in europe, and some countries are already at the point where less than half of the population says to identify with a traditional religion.

I'm not sure what the effect will be though. There are some very simple things such as suicide being a one way ticket to hell for many believers while it is missed chance at worst to an atheist. With suicide being the leading cause of death among men 25-40 this could be interesting, although only a very small fraction of the population dies by suicide before producing any offspring.
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:51 AM #6838
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The religious opposition to assisted suicide(and suicide in general) has always been somewhat confusing to me. If somebody is in extreme suffering with no chance of improvement, why would a just God want them to suffer pointlessly? Maybe it's believed that end-of-life suffering is some kind of Earthly punishment for our sins in life. Suicide could be seen as cheating this punishment and then you simply get sent to Hell?

I never support unnecessary suicides though. It's a huge shame when somebody opts for a permanent solution to their temporary problems in life.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:46 PM #6839
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Mostly, but you have to realize we have defined certain things to be objective. We define a circle as having 360 degrees objectively. To that end, it is how we experience it in our mind. There's no real reason a full circle couldn't be 100 degrees or 42 degrees, but that doesn't mean it is subjective.
That's a bad analogy. You're using a unit of measure to describe an objective object. The circle and it's properties exist and remain the same even if there is no sentient life there to describe it. This is unlike morality, where under your model it pops into existence when sentient life decides to define it and beyond that definition there is no objective basis.


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The hypothetical that "god could ask you to do something you didn't think he would" doesn't make sense? I think you're just making excuses to dodge the question.
Right back at you, please don't dodge my earlier question either.

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Also I'm curious as to what your intentions are for asking this question.
And to answer you question, I believe that it's evident in scripture that God would not ask this of me so the question then becomes non-sensical. But within your hypothetical the answer is I don't know. How could I possibly know.
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:32 PM #6840
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Also I'm curious as to what your intentions are for asking this question.
To see where you stand. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

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morality... pops into existence when sentient life decides to define it
Just like the degree or radian. Is the degree subjective, or objective?
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Old 06-25-2016, 05:08 PM #6841
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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To see where you stand. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Are you asking me a question here? Do you really not know why you're asking the question?


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Just like the degree or radian. Is the degree subjective, or objective?
If morality is like the degree or radian of a circle, what is "morality's circle"?
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:45 AM #6842
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Do you really not know why you're asking the question?
Read my statement again. I'm asking you "to see where you stand". If you don't where you stand, that's fine, but we can't really talk about your stance if you don't have one.

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If morality is like the degree or radian of a circle, what is "morality's circle"?
I know you have a really hard time understanding analogies, but the point is to notice the similarities, not the minute differences.

You're trying to say any concept man invents is subjective. Right? I gave an example of how that would be false, depending on how you define subjective. Is a radian subjective, or not?
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:57 AM #6843
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The religious opposition to assisted suicide(and suicide in general) has always been somewhat confusing to me. If somebody is in extreme suffering with no chance of improvement, why would a just God want them to suffer pointlessly? Maybe it's believed that end-of-life suffering is some kind of Earthly punishment for our sins in life. Suicide could be seen as cheating this punishment and then you simply get sent to Hell?

I never support unnecessary suicides though. It's a huge shame when somebody opts for a permanent solution to their temporary problems in life.
It is very hard to define the line of necessity here.

Sometimes it's quite clear - someone that is in pain and will perish within weeks, days or hours with zero chance of recovery/survival. Typical cases would be things like widely spread out cancer. In such a case assisted suicide should not really be a problem: that patient will be dead within the month anyway, nothing will change that outcome.

It gets a lot more difficult in cases like depression. This can also be insufferable and incurable, although the patient will not die from it directly at all. Without suicide chances are such a patient will be in agony for half a century and then die of something unrelated.

The timespan is a factor here: if there are decades left there is potential for a cure to be found, tested and brought to market in that timeframe. If it's ethical to make a person suffer and wait for that odd chance is a difficult question.

The other realistic question is what you could actually do. If someone is depressed and suicidal for a long period of time, the choice is basically to jail them in some mental hospital to suffer for the rest of their natural life, or to let them go (since they did nothing against the law so far, that would be called for) and wait for them to jump in front of a train.

The only situation in which i think suicide should be prevented is that of a momentary lapse of judgement. People can get extremely depressed over things, but this is not the type of depression that will last a lifetime or anything near it. Examples of this would be things like relationship break-ups, loss of a family member etc.
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:14 PM #6844
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Read my statement again. I'm asking you "to see where you stand". If you don't where you stand, that's fine, but we can't really talk about your stance if you don't have one.
It's just an odd way to ask the question. My stance on whether "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer. It would depend on the situation and context.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I know you have a really hard time understanding analogies, but the point is to notice the similarities, not the minute differences.

You're trying to say any concept man invents is subjective. Right? I gave an example of how that would be false, depending on how you define subjective. Is a radian subjective, or not?
I understand them fine, I do not like analogies in debate because false equivalence is committed way to often and I was not trying to say "any concept man invents is subjective". The radian is objective.

Question you have yet to answer -

I'm curious as to what your intentions are for asking this question?
If morality is like the degree or radian of a circle, what is "morality's circle"?
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Old 06-26-2016, 09:48 PM #6845
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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....

Since people often spend a fair amount of resources on practices related to their religion, it would only make sense for this behaviour to survive if there is also some benefit in it. ....
I disagree. it could survive as long as the detriments do not inhibit reproduction or basic survival. IE, it's a neutral mutation. if members who do not have the "religious mutation" are ostracized from the group, they are less likely to reproduce therefore the mutation can survive without conferring a tangible benefit, and it could even spread.

I hope it's obvious that I'm speakin in hyperbole to a degree. I don't really think there is a genetic mutation that makes people believers or not.
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Last edited by Shakenawake; 06-28-2016 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 06-27-2016, 12:04 AM #6846
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I disagree with that. People spend resources on religious activities that they could spend on other things that would increase their chance of survival over generations. An hour spend in church could have been an hour worked making money, spent on educatin a child etc. There are no freebees in evolution.

It's hard to tell if the tendency towards (any) religion is a genetic trait really. It's something that has much more to do with nurture than with nature so it is very hard to study the genetic aspects.

In modern times one could argue that being religious increases the number of offspring as it often encourages early marriage (by banning premarital ***) as well as opposing things like birth control.

These options are all fairly recent though, and do not explain much about why people before the 20th century were so religious - it dates back a few millenia.
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Old 06-28-2016, 01:22 AM #6847
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I suppose it gives a positive feeling which might make people less stressed which might improve their health. placebos do that too though
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501B by Blord osr@m PL520 520nm 95mW @.3A g lens
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Lasermax Genesis sight 532nm 5mW
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501B by Blord LPC 826 660nm 325mW @?A g lens
PL660 from Laserbtb 660nm 1020mW

LPM
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http://laserpointerforums.com/f39/co...her-94720.html

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Old 06-29-2016, 01:11 AM #6848
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Perhaps, the origin of religion is not that easy to discover.

I'm not talking about the origin of the major world religion, but the believe in any such concept. Peoples living without any contact with others or not exposed to external religions often have some sort of religion in place. This often contains an element of supernatural contact with spirits of ancestors (animism).

As a hard line atheist i find this really interesting. It seems to be 'human nature' to some degree.

Organized religion has been (ab)used for all kinds of things, but there just seems to be some innate desire to believe in 'something' supernatural and/or an afterlife in humans in general. I can speculate this came about when humans realized that their existence would eventually end but were not willing to accept this, but there aren't any good sources to confirm that.
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