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Old 06-15-2016, 01:39 AM #6817
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Would you agree with merriam-webster regarding the words objective and subjective.

Objective: existing outside of the mind : existing in the real world

Subjective: relating to the way a person experiences things in his or her own mind
The definition itself is fine. The problem is that it is, by definition, not possible to distinguish between what is in the real world and what is in the mind.

Something very trivial like 'ripe oranges are orange in color' seems to be very clear, but what looks orange to me might not look orange to you. In this case we can agree by convention, looking at a collection of objects and binning them to orange and not-orange. We could even built some device to determine if an object looks orange to most people or not. Trying to explaint to a born-blind person what the heck 'orange' is would be another matter though.

For more complex things this doesn't work that well. We have things we can objectively measure at least to some degree, such as color, but many things we cannot, such as 'pleasant'.

Take a very simple example like a condiment that consits of fermentent shrimp.

A fair number of people will find this pleasant (probably mostly asians, but that adds up to half of the worlds population) while other may find the very same thing just vile.

The condiment is exactly the same, generally poses no health risk or such, so is there any way to definte it as objectively good or bad? And that's about the simplest example


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Old 06-16-2016, 09:21 PM #6818
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



(I do enjoy the occasional bottle of wine )
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:14 AM #6819
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Is drinking alcohol a sin for christians or jews?

I know some christian factions have a problem with it and muslims generally reject it, but going on the behaviour of most people i know that identify as christian it doesn't seem to be that much of an issue.

Perhaps it makes other sins like adultery more likely, but in itself, what would be the problem? Even as an atheist i figure jesus did not turn water in to wine in order to use it as antifreeze
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:34 AM #6820
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Is drinking alcohol a sin for christians or jews?

I know some christian factions have a problem with it and muslims generally reject it, but going on the behaviour of most people i know that identify as christian it doesn't seem to be that much of an issue.

Perhaps it makes other sins like adultery more likely, but in itself, what would be the problem? Even as an atheist i figure jesus did not turn water in to wine in order to use it as antifreeze
Ok I'll answer this. Jews drink wine and most Christians are ok with it, some churches prohibit it, LDS and some others. There is nothing in the bible that indicates that drinking alcohol is a sin, even Jesus and the apostles drank wine. I think the point where it can become a sin is when it starts having an effect on the lives of others. If you become an alcoholic and end up getting divorced and the dog runs away, if you drink and drive, if you drink to much and can't do your job well, etc. Drinking, smoking, limited drug use, eating unhealthy foods, for these things you will pay a price with your health and a shorter life, but usually they are not a sin.

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Old 06-17-2016, 01:50 AM #6821
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I can follow that logic. Drinking itself is not a sin, but resulting behaviour or health effects can make it one.

Does this also apply to other drugs, like cannabis?

As i'm not a christian myself but live in a country that has a signficiant christian population i've noticed that catholics generally have no problem with alcohol consumption, whereas some (but surely not all) protestants do object to it.

And is doing something that results in a shorter lifespan a sin? I would think it would not matter much as long as you live long enough for your children to become adults. In the time the bible was written the human lifespan was very short compared to what it is today (50-ish at best then vs 70-90 now depending on lifestyle), even if you smoke 2 packs of cigs a day and down them with a sixpack of beer.
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Old 06-17-2016, 02:13 AM #6822
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I can follow that logic. Drinking itself is not a sin, but resulting behaviour or health effects can make it one.

Does this also apply to other drugs, like cannabis?

As i'm not a christian myself but live in a country that has a signficiant christian population i've noticed that catholics generally have no problem with alcohol consumption, whereas some (but surely not all) protestants do object to it.

And is doing something that results in a shorter lifespan a sin? I would think it would not matter much as long as you live long enough for your children to become adults. In the time the bible was written the human lifespan was very short compared to what it is today (50-ish at best then vs 70-90 now depending on lifestyle), even if you smoke 2 packs of cigs a day and down them with a sixpack of beer.
Yes I think it also applies to other drugs, I would point out though that Christians should obey the laws of wherever they live. They should try to help others and be good citizens and not make things worse for others.

I don't think doing something that results in a shorter lifespan is a sin, I think that a shorter lifespan is just the price you pay for your actions. If you have children I think you have a responsibility to live as long as you can, but no I don't think it's a sin.

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Old 06-17-2016, 03:45 AM #6823
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well, regarding jews, they not only drink wine, and all other spirits, so long as they are kosher (vodka is kosher btw), but are commanded to get wasted once a year on Purim. If you think I'm joking... I'm not. Outside of this holiday, drinking as part of a celebration of any kind is generally accepted without question and often even encouraged imo.

Neither Christianity or Judaism (mainstream) to my knowledge address cannabis, or other drugs directly.
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:06 AM #6824
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It's dubious scripture of that time would describe other drugs than cannabis or alcohol really - opium was obviously known and available in the far east, but probably not known or widely available in the middle east back then.

Just curious though: what exactly makes a spirit kosher or not? Ethanol is just ethanol, does it have something to do with how it is prepared or what ingredients it is ultimately derived off?
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Old 06-19-2016, 05:27 PM #6825
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm actually not sure. Afaik, vodka is kosher due to being made from potatoes, and regarding the rest, it always has to do with being made in a kosher environment, and blessed by rabbi. There are also separate rules altogether for Passover. I'll ask the rabbis to explain more next time I see them. (Usually every 3 months or so 2-3 rabbis stop by our office on fridays, it's a mitzvah for them to teach us about judaism, and it's a nice break for us. We do always end up having a few "le'chaims" meaning drinks.)
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Old 06-20-2016, 01:42 AM #6826
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That'd be interesting - i've heard of 'kosher wine' which sort of implies that there is wine that is not kosher despite all being made from grapes (perhaps it's something else in the process like clearing agents).

It's kind of interesting to see how religions that have food and drug restrictions deal with those.

One interesting example i ecountered is how hindu's generally consider cows holy and do not eat their meat, but in nepal i found many places selling buffalo meat products. To me a cow and a buffalo don't seem to be that biologically different, but apparently in some cases it is enough to make it acceptable. I'm not really sure if it works the same in india or on bali since there is so much tourism (and non-hindu population) there that beef is widely available.
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Old 06-20-2016, 06:13 PM #6827
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You know it's funny, I got into "a lot" of trouble because of a cheeseburger once. Where kosher food is concerned, meat and dairy do not go together.

Way back in the summer of 1998 I was a "counselor in training" in a jewish summer camp. A CIT gets to basically deal with all of the BS of being an actually paid counselor, but actually pays to be there (usually, I was there on a scholarship) and helps out the other counselors with 10-15 kids per group.

One of the things I did, to make life easier was to go the mess hall 10-20 minutes early, and prep the table for the rest of the little monsters aka kids. Set plates, forks, knives, spoons, cups, make a dozen pb&j sandwiches, and grab a tray or two of whatever the kitchen was serving that day. So I often got to chatting a bit with the cooks, and they were nice, usually did something extra for my own lunch, though I never asked for it (but did appreciate it).

So one nice day when burgers were being served, I got the table setup, kids settled in and eating, and went to get my own food... and got a couple of cheeseburgers, same as the kids, but cook put in slices on yellow cheese, and it melted in nicely. All good, until a kid noticed, and asked me "WHAT'S THAT!" in a very squeaky high pitched loud nasal voice. "IS THAT CHEESE? I WANT CHEESE!" and of course the rest of the kids pick up on this. Told them it was non dairy cheese I brought from home, and it was terrible, and threw out the burgers.

Unfortunately still got pulled aside later by our camp director who very sternly lectured me about the importance of keeping kosher at a religious camp.

Religious adherence to food prohibitions tends to be like that of vegans and vegetarians until they get hungry or tired of crappy food. Only a silly veneer of stupidity. Bacon in Israel used to be pretty rare, now I understand it's still rare, but not hard to get.
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Old 06-22-2016, 01:54 AM #6828
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The whole thing with being able to eat cheese or meat individually, but not combined in a dish, makes it complicated. I'm not versed into judaism enough to explain this food rule, and it just seems silly that you can eat either component of a dish, just not in combination.

On the other hand i wonder how much cheese actually is in the stuff they melt into cheese burgers. Being dutch i'd say those plastic-wrapped slices of 'cheese' are not cheese at all. Perhaps they technically are for some reason, perhaps they contain some actual cheese, but to me they are slabs of condensed attempts at cheese sauce at best.

I sometimes eat them regardgless, but only when staying in places where real cheese is hard to obtain. They don't even taste that bad to me, but are a totally different product from real cheese.
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Old 06-22-2016, 04:47 AM #6829
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Would you agree with merriam-webster regarding the words objective and subjective.

Objective: existing outside of the mind : existing in the real world

Subjective: relating to the way a person experiences things in his or her own mind
Mostly, but you have to realize we have defined certain things to be objective. We define a circle as having 360 degrees objectively. To that end, it is how we experience it in our mind. There's no real reason a full circle couldn't be 100 degrees or 42 degrees, but that doesn't mean it is subjective.

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The hypothetical you're proposing doesn't make sense.
The hypothetical that "god could ask you to do something you didn't think he would" doesn't make sense? I think you're just making excuses to dodge the question.
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Old 06-23-2016, 02:00 AM #6830
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We choose our definitions too though, a circle may be 360 degrees or 2 pi radians in circumference, depending on what we want to calculate next. Both are conventions people can agree upon though.

Many things are actually subjective. We rarely even notice this, but on some occasions it becomes quite obvious like the case of the white/gold or blue/black dress picture.

These are just cases where perception has a hard time processing something with too little context though.

By the time you sincerely believe there is a god asking you to perform certain tasks and you are willing to comply you should start to worry though, especially if that something doesn't fit with your own logic or with legislation.
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Old 06-23-2016, 03:15 AM #6831
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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By the time you sincerely believe there is a god asking you to perform certain tasks and you are willing to comply you should start to worry though, especially if that something doesn't fit with your own logic or with legislation.
Or with legislation? You are totally out of touch with those who are genuine believers. Gods laws take precedence over the laws of man, people of most religions feel this way. Anyone with enough faith should be able to discern weather or not it is God/The Holy Spirit/an Angel that is speaking to them, I am sure there have been exceptions, I wonder if it was really the angel Gabriel who appeared to Mohammad and told him to found a new religion, maybe the religion was high jacked and perverted into something else, or maybe it's a part of Gods plan. Tell me do the Muslims in your country consider themselves residents and citizens of your country first, or are they Muslims first? I think we all know the answer. Christians and Jews will usually be good citizens and try to fit in, and they will practice their traditions in private if they are not well accepted or are illegal. If God or an angel appeared to me and spoke to me and I thought it was real then I would do what I was asked, if it was too unusual I would have many questions though, if it was just a voice then I would be suspicious and would have questions. It's not always just one person spoken to.



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Old 06-24-2016, 01:26 AM #6832
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Tell me do the Muslims in your country consider themselves residents and citizens of your country first, or are they Muslims first? I think we all know the answer.
That excellently summed up the problem with muslims immigrating to european countries.

The first thing they should be aware of is that law takes precendence over religious rules, always and without exception. Making an exception is against the constition since, in our case, article 1 of that states that no exception can be made on basis of gender, race, religion, ***ual orientation etc.

Law grants the freedom of religion: you can believe whatever you want, you can do ceremonies and such if you want, as long as those do not violate the freedom of others.

To most people in western states this is common sense, but migrants should know they will have to adapt to this situation, or otherwise stay away.

Existing citizens have little problem with the concept: If their religion tells them not to work on sundays, eat fish on fridays or stop turning on lighbulbs on saturdays, they are fully free to do so. I think it's well understood that that does not give them any power to deny me the right to work on a sunday, mess around with lasers on saturdays or have a steak on friday.

I don't like to point a finger at a specifc group, but before muslims this was never a real problem. Jewish shops closed on saturdays, religious amateur soccer teams didn't play on sundays - nobody gives a shit about that really.
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