Old 06-03-2016, 03:26 AM #6785
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
.....

Which means I know because I know because I know, God would never EVER expect me to go out and kill for His gratification.
That's not my God, that's other people's god....
so the god depicted in numbers 31:17-18 is not your god? I'm confused now


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Old 06-03-2016, 06:52 AM #6786
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
so the god depicted in numbers 31:17-18 is not your god? I'm confused now
Yes, same God, it shouldn't confuse you, I'll put this one into context for you as well....
In Numbers 31, God was avenging the children of Israel of the Midianites.

Don't think for one minute God is just a big 'teddy bear' sitting there saying 'I love you, I love you - you can live how you want, no worries, there won't be any consequences to your actions".

He takes vengeance my friend, He is Just and True !
This, once again, is NOT a request by God for a human sacrifice unto Himself !
It's a declaration that He will avenge the iniquities of the people.

The Bible also says:

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, by which you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord GOD: therefore turn yourselves, and live.

Ezekiel 18:30-32

and again:

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 33:11
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Old 06-03-2016, 02:34 PM #6787
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Since right and wrong only apply to sentient minds as I understand it, I'm inclined to say no. I'm not certain, though.

It's like asking if gravity doesn't exist, would "up" still exist. If we define up as dependent on the direction of gravity, I'd be inclined to say no. We could also define up with some other reference, however, as is sometimes done on spacecraft for example.
Then in a universe where abiogenesis occurs and sentience arises sometime later, when/how does good/evil & right/wrong come into existence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I'm still looking for an answer to the question:
If God told you to sacrifice your first born son, would you do it?
Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the old testament law and the sacrificial system, God would not ask this of me. Also I'm curious as to what your intentions are for asking this question.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
btw, things dont have to be objectively wrong to be wrong.
So they don't have to be objectively wrong to be subjectively wrong? Yes I agree.


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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
Not that anyone other than Alan has bothered replying to the past dozen or so replies I have left over the past month They just get ignored. I guess this is a private conversation between a few of you so Ill leave you all to it. Just been wondering these thoughts my whole life.
Relax you're not being ignored. That post has at least 10 questions in it, several why questions with potentially long answers, no answer, or with more questions built into them, and they are not directly asked to anyone. Maybe condense it down a bit here, we all have limited time, and seek out some answers on your own.
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:23 PM #6788
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I figure this is a good place to put this. I've known a few people in my life who simply cannot believe in the big bang theory without the involvement of the supernatural/divine/God etc. They'll agree that the universe was created in the big bang, but believe it was the work of a creator. The whole "And God said let there be light" thing.

The big bang theory seems to violate the laws of physics and thermodynamics. After all, how can everything come from nothing? Simply saying "It's probably impossible to ever know" doesn't really satisfy some people.(Not sure it satisfies myself as well).

Arguments such as "well who created God" go nowhere, as such people can simply say God is eternal and has always existed/will always exist. It also doesn't work to claim it's illogical to believe in such a magical creation of the universe when science has no real explanation itself.

It's pretty easy to pick at particular religions, but taking on less specific generalized spiritual beliefs seems nearly impossible sometimes.
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:23 PM #6789
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

ok let me see if I have this right.

1. God wouldn't ask current believers to kill for him. this would be evil

2. god has in the past had his followers kill for him. this was good

3. god's morality is eternal, unchanging and objective.

is that right?

also, regarding those virgins isreal took for themselves. what aspect of being a virgin means you are not wicked enough to deserve immediate death? the isrealites were moral at the time, I'm sure they weren't taking the virgins to have *** with, no way man. I wonder why only female virgins were spared and not male ones. hmmmm...

I wonder how they determined if the women were virgins. surely an omniscient god would be aware that a broken hymen doesnt necessarily mean they are not a virgin. surely

also, I'm gonna go ahead and call god a liar regarding not enjoying punishing the wicked. if he really didnt enjoy it, hell would not be infinite. torturing someone for an eternity regardless of the crime is just torturing for fun. I dont care what you think

why is god justified in killing some wicked people immediately, including babies, with events like the flood and sodom, but now days he lets the wheat grow with the tares? san fransisco is still standing but sodom gets destroyed? this is consistent unchanging will and morality?

how does a perfect god create imperfect beings?

@ razako. IIRC the big bang claims to have started with an infinitely dense singularity, much different from nothing. for the record I would love more detail as well. positing a god to explain an already fairly inexplicable event doesnt help much IMO. even if it wasd a god, science would still want to know the how of it.
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Old 06-03-2016, 10:53 PM #6790
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
@ razako. IIRC the big bang claims to have started with an infinitely dense singularity, much different from nothing. for the record I would love more detail as well. positing a god to explain an already fairly inexplicable event doesnt help much IMO. even if it wasd a god, science would still want to know the how of it.
Well yes, but that singularity had to come from something right And why would a singularity explode outwards rather than existing as a giant black hole?

This all gets even weirder when thinking about how our universe is continuing to expand driven by dark energy. If it was to eventually collapse again I could see a sort of 'unending cycle' of universes collapsing into a singularity and then expanding again. However our universe looks like it will expand forever, making it seem like a one-time-only event.

Obviously attributing all of this to divine creation without proof might be the wrong approach, but current science doesn't provide many answers either. Science was easily able to explain the workings of the stars and earthly events such as thunder storms/volcanoes. Unfortunately, when it comes to the subject of creation everything comes back to the ultimately unsatisfying answer of "we don't know".
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:04 PM #6791
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Then in a universe where abiogenesis occurs and sentience arises sometime later, when/how does good/evil & right/wrong come into existence.
Good question. I'd suppose it came into existence when we decided it should.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
God would not ask this of me.
How can you know that? How can you know the mind of god? Surely you must believe god's will is different from your own in some ways. Surely you must believe he has a greater mysterious plan that you may not be able to comprehend. Surely you can think of other instances where god's demands were not understood or agreed with, but followed anyway.

If he did demand this of you, what would you do?
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:18 AM #6792
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I don't even know anymore. I have seen good points on both sides, and as I read this thread, I go back and forth with my belief. btw, I think this might be the longest thread, based on what I have seen so far.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:38 AM #6793
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipd7 View Post
I don't even know anymore. I have seen good points on both sides, and as I read this thread, I go back and forth with my belief. btw, I think this might be the longest thread, based on what I have seen so far.
Phillip (and anyone else reading this):

Just ask Jesus to show you the truth if He is real.

Say this to God:

Jesus if you are real please show me from Your Word in the Bible.
Jesus I know I have sinned and I don't want to continue in my wrong ways anymore.
I repent for the things I have done wrong and ask you to forgive me.
Help me to turn from my old ways and come into my heart and make me a new person.
Guide my decisions from now on and I want to believe in you so you may save me.
I want to go to Heaven.

RB

Edit: believe me, God does not turn anyone away when they ask for forgiveness and truly believes in Him.
You have nothing to loose and all of Heaven to gain.

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:02 AM #6794
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I guess i believe in -precisely- one less god than most people on earth, regardless of which one that is.

And for the people that think 'so you believe in only 15 out of my 16 gods': i'll probably like your culture, regardless of what personally believe in
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:21 AM #6795
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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And for the people that think 'so you believe in only 15 out of my 16 gods': i'll probably like your culture, regardless of what personally believe in
Liking someone else's culture has nothing to do with the God I believe in.
I don't worship a culture, I worship the only One and True God.
He transcends over all culture, whether they believe Jesus or not.
I have nothing against other people's culture, I accept their right to believe what they want.

I am required though to share what and why I believe when I'm asked.
And this is what this thread is doing, it's asking me to give an account for my beliefs.

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:45 AM #6796
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post

My apologies Olympus, I hope I haven't come across as ignoring anything you posted.
I haven't been following this thread because I have been off line from the forum for the last month or so, my kids were sick and then I fell sick too.
It's hard sometimes juggling family, work and health and I can't spend as much time online as I'd like.

I would like to say though that a lot of your recent questions in your last post I've answered numerous times before in this thread to other people and it's hard to keep having to answer them over and over again to different members.

I didn't want to come across as ignoring anyone in particular, I cherish each and everyone of you here.

RB
Thanks RB I appreciate this. I understand it's hard to repeat yourself over and over. I felt the same way with the whole defining what an atheist is and isn't as I have spent hours explaining my position more than 3 times now.

I think this thread has gone on for so long that I doubt any new material or arguments are even possible at this point. For what its worth the past couple months when I have replied here I am making a great effort to tone down and speak non emotionally without attacks. I will also keep my replies shorter as that makes for a better discussion/debate.

Im sure you have covered this but to spare me hours of reading back, do you feel God is all knowing? That would pretty much satisfy my inquiry. If yes then I feel the Tree of knowledge case is a pretty big obstacle to Gods love and supposed wishes, and human kinds being the guilty party here on earth then and now.

Alan thank you for responding. I definitely read it closely and appreciate the time you took to address the main points. I do think that even if God is not all knowing as your understanding of him doesn't let him off the hook. I could just claim incompetency over immorality.
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Old 06-04-2016, 04:43 PM #6797
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
why is god justified in killing some wicked people immediately, including babies, with events like the flood and sodom, but now days he lets the wheat grow with the tares? san fransisco is still standing but sodom gets destroyed? this is consistent unchanging will and morality?
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of San Francisco is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
Alan thank you for responding. I definitely read it closely and appreciate the time you took to address the main points. I do think that even if God is not all knowing as your understanding of him doesn't let him off the hook. I could just claim incompetency over immorality.
I believe that those who act out of ignorance and not immorality will have a second chance to learn the truth.

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

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Old 06-04-2016, 11:52 PM #6798
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Liking someone else's culture has nothing to do with the God I believe in.
I don't worship a culture, I worship the only One and True God.
He transcends over all culture, whether they believe Jesus or not.
I have nothing against other people's culture, I accept their right to believe what they want.

I am required though to share what and why I believe when I'm asked.
And this is what this thread is doing, it's asking me to give an account for my beliefs.

I generally find polytheistic cultures interesting. I don't believe in one or more than one god myself, but can appreciate what people do in order to please their god(s), as long as those actions are benign.

One thing i can admire is the structures people build to revere their god(s) - this certainly includes monotheistic productions like churchs and mosques, ancient egyptian temples dedicated to one god among the many they believed in, as well as hindu temples (or complexes) that are sometimes dedicated to more than one god.

I see them as human achievements in things like architecture. Historically the best buildings were often those created as places of worship. This also includes animists that prefer to build monuments to their ancestors instead of abstact gods - mausolea can also be wonderful.
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Old 06-05-2016, 02:24 AM #6799
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
Thanks RB I appreciate this. I understand it's hard to repeat yourself over and over. I felt the same way with the whole defining what an atheist is and isn't as I have spent hours explaining my position more than 3 times now.

I think this thread has gone on for so long that I doubt any new material or arguments are even possible at this point. For what its worth the past couple months when I have replied here I am making a great effort to tone down and speak non emotionally without attacks. I will also keep my replies shorter as that makes for a better discussion/debate.

Im sure you have covered this but to spare me hours of reading back, do you feel God is all knowing? That would pretty much satisfy my inquiry. If yes then I feel the Tree of knowledge case is a pretty big obstacle to Gods love and supposed wishes, and human kinds being the guilty party here on earth then and now.
Thanks for your reply OM.
Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to repeat my position for you.
I just wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as ignoring people.
Being a forum, posts, questions and replies get swallowed up quickly and before you know it we're one or two pages along with other replies, etc.
With eight children and a business to run with my wife, it's not always easy to reply when I want/need to, LOL.

I'll try and keep it shortish, I know I get carried away because I'm so passionate about God and end up posting long verses and long replies.

The whole garden account in Genesis reveals how God created man, making him above all the other creatures, with the distinction of having a soul and spirit and also 'a free will'.
God said: "Let us make man in our image."

Free will means to be able to think for yourself and make choices through our God given ability to reason.
Lets consider an example, being in a relationship with someone.
If we didn't have the ability to choose and express our love and adoration (through our free will) for someone, telling that person 'I love you' has no depth and meaning other wise.

So in order for God to have true fellowship with man (and vice versa) a choice needed to be given to man.
Placed in an idyllic environment, with God present in the garden, man had all that he needed to live in peace and full contentment with God, free from physical death.
God's way of offering a choice to man was to warn him about the sin and the temptation, in the form of disobedience to God's Word, of the only tree in the garden he was not to eat from.

Of course He knew what was to happen, it wouldn't be considered free will if He totally eliminates all possibilities for man to choose not to follow God's Word.

Knowing also full well that God himself would have to make a way for man to be redeemed from man's sins, by offering His own Son, Jesus, to die on 'The other tree', the Cross, in our place, to die for sin, the only human sacrifice God instigates in the Bible (listening Cyparagon and Shaken?).

We are not being judged for Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit, for it was by that act that sin and death entered the world.
We are each already condemned by our own sins, each one of us committing the sin of disobedience towards God, hence why each one of us will stand and give account unless we accept God's provision of redemption through Jesus.
You see God knew all along that by Adam and Eve's choice to disobey, there needed to be a way for man to be redeemed and forgiven though the free will choice by every human to choose God once again through Jesus.

Today, the Gospel of Jesus, which means the Good News of Redemption, has spread throughout the world and man has free will to once again choose God or continue unto death.

If you would like to take a bit of time to listen to the following YouTube video, it goes through the chapter 2 account in Genesis that you ask about, expounding on what I've tried to squeeze into a few sentences in my reply.

It's up to you if you're willing and interested to listen to the whole thing, at 93 minutes in length, I know it's quite long.
So, I've linked to the two places in the video that address your question more fully, directly and more eloquently than what I can do here.

My best regards and I hope I've expressed my view clearly enough for you to see why I believe what I believe.

Youtube links below: I'm having problems using the forum YT link tool so here's the direct links, I hope they work.

Starting at 31:00 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ME...youtu.be&t=31m

And also at 57:00 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ME...utu.be&t=57m9s

RB
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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Old 06-05-2016, 02:47 AM #6800
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
I generally find polytheistic cultures interesting. I don't believe in one or more than one god myself, but can appreciate what people do in order to please their god(s), as long as those actions are benign.

One thing i can admire is the structures people build to revere their god(s) - this certainly includes monotheistic productions like churchs and mosques, ancient egyptian temples dedicated to one god among the many they believed in, as well as hindu temples (or complexes) that are sometimes dedicated to more than one god.

I see them as human achievements in things like architecture. Historically the best buildings were often those created as places of worship. This also includes animists that prefer to build monuments to their ancestors instead of abstact gods - mausolea can also be wonderful.
Ben, the Bible says:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

Also:

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things;
And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
Acts 17:24-28

You see God is not seeking man to worship Him in ornate building made by man.
God searches the heart of man and states that we should worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
What can man offer God in terms of buildings of worship?

God is seeking people who love and worship him in Truth.
How is it that the underground Christian Church is flourishing in countries of persecution, gathering in secret to Worship Him while the huge ornate churches of yesteryear in the west are empty and are being converted to nightclubs, historical museum sites of architecture and community social halls ?

Jesus said, 'Let the dead bury the dead, you follow me and proclaim the kingdom of God'.

RB

__________________
Andrew (RB)

─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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