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Old 05-13-2016, 08:00 PM #6753
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I don't think that is off topic. I certainly have some strong opinions. I have studied occultism off and on for many years since I was 18. I have before briefly described my haunted house experience when I was 8 years old and I would say that left me very open minded and really changed my thinking. In the next few years I had some strange experiences with other kids using a Ouija board, sometimes one or more adults were participating, it has been 40 years since I touched one and I wouldn't use one today, but this certainly left me more open minded. When I was 18 I met a man who could to a good extent predict the future accurately in some detail, he used numerology and the tarot, I got to see his library of books and I became more interested. I began buying and reading books over the years. I have read books that I would not recommend anyone read, some hidden knowledge isn't meant for all and should remain hidden. My father was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite although he would never talk about it much if I asked him questions. For years I thought about joining AMORC or the Masons but I never did.

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Interesting. Have you ever had an Astral Projection?

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Nice. One of my favorite (no sacred cows) strips.


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Old 05-16-2016, 02:16 AM #6754
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well Duke, I'm not really interested in the debate anymore. you seem to fixate on a few points I think are more or less trivial like what someone means when they say they are an atheist. as much as it grinds your gears, we are not making a positive claim, we are skeptical of yours and reserve judgement in lieu of evidence. saying I'm an atheist should tell you about as much about what I believe as you telling me you're a theist. I also consider myself to be an "empirical rationalist" as well as an "apistevist"

I do not believe your god exists, but even if I did, I would not ally with him.

I think the bible is very indicative of being made by men to control eachother and justify their behavior. as such, it seems to me the god it describes is made up.

even if I thought it was true, I would reject god. he has at times been ok with killing infants and children, and ordered his followers to do the same. I can not ally with that, or allow for the possibility that it is under any circumstance ok to do. well, I guess I shouldnt say any circumstance, I've heard some crazy 'nam stories about having to kill kids so they didnt blow up a bunch of your guys with a grenade. but the way it happens in the bible I don't see as justified. god punishes different people differently, according to his whim, not any rules. that is not compatible with an eternal will especially with a god that knows the future. I would not like to be in the presence of a being who tortures for torture's sake, which is what hell is. such a concept is incompatible for me, with a god who claims to be merciful and just.

As some of you might guess, I'm a big Tool fan, and I agree with the line in "Pushit", "there's no love in fear". as such, I can not have both fear of the lord and love for him. I do not react nicely to threats or coercion, tactics your god uses. I refuse to believe that with all the things humans are capable of, that our test here on this planet would would hinge on whether we believed something that appears barbaric and fabricated in order to get into heaven. such a test does not seem to me to demonstrate growth or maturity or really any quality I could imagine a god wanting to test for. I realize I don't dictate what god values, but I also don't care. if he's greater than us then he can demonstrate some maturity too, but he seems to love his temper tantrums, usually resulting in a lotta people getting killed.

peace



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Old 05-16-2016, 04:51 AM #6755
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Stumbled across these criteria for debate guidelines (which seem appropriately titled for this thread) ...



... while researching Pascal's Wager.

Here's a popular quad of Pascal's Wager



Which is described (from the above link) as:

"Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologetic philosophy devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62).[1] It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or that he does not. Based on the assumption that the stakes are infinite if God exists and that there is at least a small probability that God in fact exists, Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell)."
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Old 05-16-2016, 06:01 AM #6756
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

thanks OVNI. I hope your getting along ok now, I saw you had a loss. our time here is short.

those are pretty good guidelines, pretty sure I've broken a few.

and here is why pascal's wager is dumb

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Old 05-16-2016, 12:59 PM #6757
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I just came across a link to this and thought I should share it here.

Man seeks restraining order against God | The Times of Israel

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Old 05-23-2016, 07:13 PM #6758
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
we are skeptical of yours and reserve judgement in lieu of evidence.

such a concept is incompatible for me, with a god who claims to be merciful and just.

"there's no love in fear"
I do not believe we can remain in a state of lack of belief concerning the concept once we've been introduced to it. Reserving judgment is a position and is not the same as going back to a state of unawareness or lack of belief.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
such a concept is incompatible for me, with a god who claims to be merciful and just.
I think your moral issues come from logical and/or philosophical misunderstandings of the old testament, but regardless can you see that arguing against the existence of God focusing on moral issues from a viewpoint where morality is subjective is a broken argument. When you place morality in the same category as "which ice cream flavor is best", it removes any real value from it.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
"there's no love in fear"
This is false in the way you are trying to use it. In a healthy child-parent relationship love and certain elements of fear can coexist.


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Well Duke, I'm not really interested in the debate anymore.
Then GL to you, I hope you come to Christ someday........ and stop watching youtube
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Old 05-23-2016, 08:56 PM #6759
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well said Duke.

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
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─────────────────────────────────☀
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Old 05-23-2016, 09:18 PM #6760
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
....

I think your moral issues come from logical and/or philosophical misunderstandings of the old testament, but regardless can you see that arguing against the existence of God focusing on moral issues from a viewpoint where morality is subjective is a broken argument. When you place morality in the same category as "which ice cream flavor is best", it removes any real value from it.

This is false in the way you are trying to use it. In a healthy child-parent relationship love and certain elements of fear can coexist.
I wasnt using moral issues as an arguement against his existence. I dont believe he exists but if he did, the moral issues would prevent me from aligning with him. I stated as much. your characterization of subjective morality being akin to picking favorite ice cream flavors is absurd. I guess just stick with your arbitrarily dictated morality. then an action you do can be either good or evil depending only on whether god told you to do it or not. kill an entire city and keep the virgins for yourselves. god told you to do it so it's "good". or it was then but it's not now because god changed his mind. whatever. I'll stick with my method. your god seems too flippy floppy on the issue, ironic to me that you'd consider that objective and unchanging morality. yet you arent out stoning people for gathering firewood on the wrong day of the week are you? if this was objectively moral then, why not now?

also, most parents don't threaten their children with eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth for any and every wrong they commit. good parents also explain why an action is wrong instead of just punishing. not doing something because you understand why it's wrong and hurts others is more moral than not doing something because you fear the consequence, in my view. I guess that's why I hear some christians say if they didnt believe in god they'd be out raping and murdering since there are no consequences and it wouldnt be "objectively wrong". funny how this usually doesn't happen upon deconversion. maybe it's because morality doesnt come from god. nah, couldnt be that.
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:52 PM #6761
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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yet you arent out stoning people for gathering firewood on the wrong day of the week are you? if this was objectively moral then, why not now?
It's remarkable you'd fight Christianity with such passion, claim to have been "one of us", yet not seek out the answer to this. It's core doctrine you're either ignoring or are just ignorant of. If you want to effectively challenge faith you need to challenge our core beliefs, not just continually cherry pick context.
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Old 05-25-2016, 03:06 AM #6762
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

well you see, I'm now of the opinion that it'd NEVER be ok to kill someone for doing this. I'm trying to show how your god who supposedly knows the future and has an eternal will flip flops all the time, and stuff that was moral then is suddenly not anymore, like this and killing entire cities and keeping the virgins. how is it you maintain that morality from god is objective and eternal and not arbitrary and capricious when he changes the rules?

how can you believe that an infant is evil and deserving of being drowned in a global flood? you think that's the best solution from an all powerful god? let's suppose all the adults were evil, and deserved instant death even though god doesnt do that anymore, for whatever reason. couldnt god give them all magic heart attacks and setup an angelic orphanage for the infants? I mean, that's just off the top of my head. tell me why god is justified in killing infants. ever. please explain how someone who is still crapping their pants could be evil enough to deserve drowning. not to mention all the plants and animals. actually, don't get me started on all the reasons the flood story is impossible, I'd be typing all night

how is punishing different people in different times to different degrees consistent and just to you, considering that god knows the entire future? how could god regret the flood if he knew the future? if he planned to offer salvation through christ all along then how was he justified in the flood? where is the eternal morality? I don't see it. I don't see how he can force his little narrative, by doing things like hardening hearts and killing people like onan, yet still claim we all have free will. I don't get why he had a chosen people if he planned to offer salvation to everyone eventually, and claims to be "no respecter of persons". Acts 10:34 (probably another one out of context there.) that is not consistent to me. good luck convincing me that it is

sorry you see it as cherry picking. that's the thing about absolute statements though, one exception proves them wrong. I say you cherry pick the nice parts and ignore the megalomaniacal parts. are you saying the entire bible is not infallible?

I like how you snuck in that questioning of whether I was ever one of you or not. haven't we been over the "no true scottsman" fallacy before? I assure you, I was a Christian. please don't remind me, it makes me cringe. especially becasue I actually converted at least one person I can think of, back when I was on your side. I sure as heck don't expect to convince the people I debate on here. you guys are clearly totally invested in it. at least you guys are familiar with the bible. the crazy thing to me is how many christians I meet who are as convinced as you yet barely know the bible at all. still, the number one cited reason for deconversion from christianity is reading the bible. I assure you I know the bible better than most. reminds me of a time I was arguing with some jehovah witnesses that came to my door. I had already told them I was an atheist. one of them asked me if i knew matthew 7:13. I quoted it to her verbatim, and the next verse as well. her jaw dropped, and she had to fumble through her bible to make sure the atheist hadnt just tricked her. then when they left they naturally told me I should read the bible better. I thought. "I just quoted it to you from memory, and you had to check to see if I was right, maybe you should read it better"

jehovah witnesses are wierd, they don't believe in hell. so there went a lot of my arguements. I did tell 'em I thought they were morally reprehensible for allowing a family member to die when a blood transfusion would save their life. made me feel crappy to tell a couple of ladies that, but they did come to my door and want to talk, and I think B.S. beliefs, especially those that lead to the harming of others, need to be challenged

I doubt there's a single thing I could criticize in the bible that you wouldnt say I was taking out of context or applying wrong context to. I mean, you do think it's the word of truth, so anything the atheist says about it must be wrong. it says so in 1 Corinthians 2:6-14. or am I taking that one out of context too?

when you put me in no win situations, the possibility that you could be wrong is precluded. the bible likes to do that. the quran too, actually
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:41 PM #6763
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
sorry you see it as cherry picking. that's the thing about absolute statements though, one exception proves them wrong. I say you cherry pick the nice parts and ignore the megalomaniacal parts.
A big part of our disconnect is you shotgun many how and why questions each post and don't address the issues. You don't accept the short answers and the long answers are just that, long, requiring more length and time than a forum post usually merits.

I don't cherry pick either. When you get to really studying the new testament it doesn't make much sense without the old.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I like how you snuck in that questioning of whether I was ever one of you or not. haven't we been over the "no true scottsman" fallacy before?
The "no true scottsman" fallacy does not apply there. The whole first sentence of that post could have been omitted and the point would be the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
when you put me in no win situations
You do that to yourself. If I step into your worldview your moral arguments for it cease to have meaning, ironically they require God. If the Christian God or a moral law giver does not exist then there is no true morality and individual moral judgments are only true to that individual. If the Christian God does exist and the bible is correct then your moral judgements against God are wrong. I understand that you may claim you're simply pointing out inconsistencies, and to that I know its been shown that there is no logical inconsistency with the existence of suffering and God being both sovereign and good.
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Old 05-26-2016, 09:26 PM #6764
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 05-26-2016, 11:26 PM #6765
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

duke you arent paying attention. I don't claim that the suffering in the world in inconsistent with god's existence. I'm claiming that god himself causes suffering. it's ok though. I just hope god doesnt ever tell you to kill any babies, cause i'm afraid you'd listen. you don't eem to think this act is wrong in and of itself, so if god orders it, it's moral, even obligitory. I'm also guessing you think he won't tell you to, but you never know. it happened in the bible, to humans not so different from ourselves. then there are those stories of women who drown their kids in the bathtub because god told them to. they really believe it. I am grateful christians arent as bad about this as they used to be before the church had to make so many consessions. I also realize that's a fringe example hardly representative of most christians, thankfully. i do think though that when a single religion controls the government, human rights violations inevitably follow.

if my moral arguements against god are wrong just because he is god, then morality is arbitrary, no way around it.

anyway, I'm done for now, debating you is kinda like banging my head against a wall, not that I expected it to be any other way. I'm also posting too much in this thread, gotta cut back, but it's difficult. I didn't realize I had failed to address an issue though. or that I failed to challenge core beliefs. I thought the claim that god is perfect, omniscient, loving, just, merciful, and omnipresent constitued a core belief, and I had thought I had been attempting to challenge those notions, but I guess not
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Old 05-26-2016, 11:28 PM #6766
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If the Christian God or a moral law giver does not exist then there is no true morality and individual moral judgments are only true to that individual.
I've already established a few pages back that this idea of yours is bullshit.

To reiterate: if we define morality as something that increases well-being or reduces unnecessary suffering, there are some actions that objectively increase well-being more than others. Would you like to define morality another way?

Furthermore, is a given action good because god says so, is a given action good despite god saying so, or is a given action good simply because it is in line with god's character... or do you have some other explanation?
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Old 05-27-2016, 03:49 AM #6767
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Shakenawake

I agree I'm getting tired of debating with you aswell for much of the same reasons. The issue is you need to show a shut case that God acted unjustly, but the old testament shows just as God was faithful to pour out his blessings he was also faithful to pour out his wrath.

@ Cyparagon

You didn't establish anything you bowed out of the discussion. I disagree and will respond later. Enjoy the holiday.
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Old 05-27-2016, 05:46 AM #6768
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
you need to show a shut case that God acted unjustly
Global flood is a pretty shitty thing to do. Sending bears to maul children is a pretty shitty thing to do.

HOWEVER, Defining god as omnibenevolent and asking for an instance of behavior otherwise is just goofy. Anything most people would consider brutal and capricious is automatically re-evaluated to benevolent by you. The problem is that god can do no wrong in your eyes. Even the worst atrocities you would dismiss as just "beyond our understanding" or "part of a greater good"

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You didn't establish anything
You refusing to accept my establishment doesn't mean my establishment didn't take place. I explained myself, and all you could muster was some weaselly string of trying to challenge "but how do you know well-being is good" nonsense, when you clearly agree well-being is good.

Language is relatively simple. We both agree on what what concept a word represents, and use the word in its place. To challenge definitions usually ends up being a linguistics issue, and not a morality issue. I'll be generous and let you decide what things mean for the time being, since you have so many problems with mine - but be precise. You need to define what you mean when you respond, or we're going to go in circles playing your word games again.
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