Old 05-04-2016, 10:00 AM #6737
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I look forward to it. I have thought about these and more for quite some time. I think they are questions few believers ask themselves or ever consider.
I do apologize for the rapid fire questions. thinking about it now, it's a very "Hovindesque" technique. It'd be cool if you could answer every one, or I guess depending on some answers every relevant one. take your time, no rush. Not for you anyway, my soul's the one on the line. Am I right?
My deepest apology to Shaken and to all for my long overdue reply.
My children came down with the flu and we all got sick, a very nasty strain.

With a big family like ours, if one child gets sick, we all get it in turn, it's hard to avoid.

Anyway I will reply soon, there's lot's to read through.

And yes I do worry Shaken, I did want to reply ASAP but I couldn't.
Anyway I'm back online and will read and reply.



__________________
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:48 PM #6738
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
perhaps. While it IS true each blade of grass lacks a belief in a god, it's generally assumed "someone (aka some sentient being) that lacks a belief in a god". Furthermore, most people don't try equating such things with plants.

Since you love analogies so much:
Person 1: "A layman is someone that lacks professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject."
Mr DukeA: "By that definition, my pansies and cacti are laymen, which is just silly! You're silly!"

That's not what atheism is, strictly speaking. It's more: "A god may or may not exist. However, I have not been provided without enough evidence to warrant belief in a god." Agnosticism is an epistemological standpoint on what can be known, or what is knowable. It is separate from belief.
The problem you have defining atheism as a "lack of belief", is that it's no longer a position on god's existence, it's just a psychological state. And it's quite silly to defend a position that god does not exist, call yourself an atheist, then try to redefine the traditional meaning of the word atheist from an actual position that requires defense, "god does not exist" to "I lack belief in god". I have no doubt you lack belief in god, and we aren't debating if you believe god exists are we.
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Old 05-04-2016, 01:54 PM #6739
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I've got non-rhetorical series of questions for any believer who cares to answer.

1. do you think god knows the future in it's entirety and in every detail?

If so, that would mean god knew in advance that isreal would reject him no matter how many chances he gave them. they might come back for a while, but are always led astray again. given this foreknowledge, on what moral basis did god deny salvation to the gentile's this entire time, many of whom I'm sure were every bit as worthy as the one who Jesus encounters in Matthew 15:22?
Indeed God knows the end from the beginning, there are no surprises to God.
He knew (and knows) that Israel would keep straying away, and not only Israel but all peoples of all nations.
Here the Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman in Matt 15:22 begged Jesus for mercy and help with her daughter's demonic possession.
Jesus' response was not one of judgement though, as it first may seem on the surface. He is coaxing out a response from her for the benefit of the crowd and the audience (the reader).
He is in fact demonstrating that by faith (even in the face of supposed rejection from him because she was a gentile), He demonstrates His Grace and forgiveness for anyone who seeks and asks of Him.
He in fact is drawing everyone, not just Israel, to Him through Grace, not judgement, for it is by Grace we are saved through faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
further, wouldnt it also mean that he knew in advance that adam and eve would eat the fruit, and that as a result he would have to send many to hell? if he knew this and did it anyway, doesnt that imply he enjoys punishing his created things, very sadistically? bonus question, if god cannot be tempted and neither tempteth he any man, why did he put the tree he DID NOT want adam to eat of smack dab in the middle of the garden? if you saw another parent put something they told their kids not to touch right in the middle of their play area, would you say that the parents were tempting their kids? if so, why is it different with god?
Yes, God knew that Adam & Eve would 'fall'. When He asked: "What have you done?" it wasn't a surprised question but rather a remark of disappointment for them.
The fact that He told them not to eat from that tree that He put in the garden does not in anyway imply God enjoys punishing man or tempts man.
I have raised my children on our property and have pointed out the dangers to them, I have a gun safe smack bang in the middle of our residence.
I have warned them about the dangers of guns and I have also told them where the keys are. Am I tempting them? No.
They know it is dangerous if they disobey and miss-use the guns.
I have told them which ones they can use and which ones they are to stay away from.
Now I know it's a crude example but it does convey that just because God placed that Tree there does not mean He is tempting them.
In fact it shows that man chose to disobey God.
Don't think Adam and Eve where little kiddies running around in the garden and God irresponsibly left them unattended (as in your example of how you put it). Adam and Eve where grown adults when this happened, as shown by their response, "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."

Now further to this, we are not paying for the sin of Adam and Eve per se.
We too have disobeyed God in our own right, we carry our very own sins, just like our forefathers but they are our own sins.
I am not responsible for your sins nor you mine.
Adam and Eve though were stripped of their sinless state as we see God pronounce their fall and their subsequent punishment of life's coming hardships, man to work hard to provide and woman to bare children through labour pains. This was the fall of man from Grace but notice that Sin ultimately leads to death. They shall live a life separated from God's perfect provisions of the garden and will die, just like He told them would happen if they ate the fruit.
Notice though that God makes a way for man to come back to God through God's Grace via Jesus' sacrifice.

In the Gospels we are told that when Jesus died He went down Hades to set the righteous free. Before that time anyone that died went down there.
If they were righteous they would be with Abraham and if they were wicked they would be on the other side of Hades, in torment.
You see, no one was allowed into heaven until Jesus died and rose again, so that He could atone for everyone's sins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
2. Is anything god does automatically just, just becasue he is god?

if so, that would mean that it's just to hold a descendant of a person responsible for their ancestor's crimes, and punish finite crimes with infinite punishment. given this, on what basis would you condemn using the death penalty for every crime including petty offences, or condemn north korea for their policy of imprisoning families of criminals? or are you down with that, and if so, why not move there?

Or, is it possible for god to do things that if a human did would make him evil, but because god does it, it's ok?
Again, each one of us is responsible for our own sins.
He will not judge you for your father's sins.
This is not to say that past sins of our forefathers won't impact us though.
God said "I will visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments".

Each person will be judged for their actions but there are consequences in life for those actions upon the person and the others involved in those actions. Drunk fathers affect their families, uncaring mothers scare their children etc.
The 'death penalty' which you're referring to is the penalty for rejecting Jesus, in not accepting God's Grace for salvation while you had the chance here on earth, in not repenting and asking God for that forgiveness of your sins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
3. Did god give every human free will?

if so, then why is he justified in removing it like when he hardened pharaoh's heart or made a bet with the devil regarding Job's piety, or when he killed Onan for pulling out instead of ejaculating in his dead brother's widow? (sorry for the vulgarity, but I'm referencing bible stories) or is he justfied in these in order to propel his elaborate pageant? if so, does the rule then become: "you have free will, as long as god feels like it, and you don't happen to be involved in any of his skits". on what moral basis do you punish someone who has no free will?
God never violates our free will. He gave us free will in order to have a proper relationship with Him. You can't love someone if you're not free to choose them to love, else everyone would just be like robots following a flow diagram.
In the Pharaoh account the bible says Pharaoh kept hardening his heart against God, each step of the way. In the end it reached a point that there was no turning back for Pharaoh (just like Judas).
God knew Pharaoh crossed over the point of no return and hence the statement, "Then God hardened Pharaoh's heart". No violation of free will occurred, it's just that God knew all along, it was for our benefit (the reader) to show the stubbiness of man in rejecting God and the subsequent consequences.

And again, God did not bet against the Devil about Job, that's a very erroneously simplistic analysis of what happened.
Here God proves to the Devil (and to us the reader) that the righteous know about the Grace of God, and it is that Grace that makes us love Him.
You see, Job in the end was blessed two-fold and gained back more than he lost in the first place. No violation of free will.

Onan exercised his free will, no violation there either.
In fact the Bible tells us that his older brother Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD;
It was Onan's obligation under their laws to continue on the bloodline.
He disobeyed God too and so he died too.
There was a purpose for this continuation of the bloodline for it was this bloodline that appears in Jesus' linage.
Onan disobeying this leads to a sorted affair with the widow Tamar and her father in law Judah, where she tricks him into an affair without Judah knowing it was her which leads to her falling pregnant with her father in laws child.
Onan's disobedience had opened the way for Satan to violate the linage of Jesus hence why God slew him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
do you submit to god just because he is "the boss" and carries the biggest stick?

I'm guessing you might say you submit out of love. So I would ask, why is a being who demonstrates behavior no one would tolerate in a human worthy of your love?
Yes I submit out of love but not blind love.
It's because God showed me Grace and Mercy even in the face of my disobedience.
Even now, I still fall yet He loves me still and He picks me up and gives me another chance.
He can do it for you too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
bonus follow up questions. why do you think a being who is all powerful would like constant praise and adoration, IE, worship, so much? what pleasure do you think god gets out of his interaction with humans? Why do you think he is more pleased with people coming to him under the possible threat of hell instead of imposing no consequence other than ceasing to exist if one didn't want to be with him after death? If YOU desired love from another, who's would you value more, one who gives it to you under threat, even if the love is real, or one who gives it when they could just as easily walk away?

you might say we are god's children, and children do need discipline. but normal children grow up to be an equal to their parent, and most parents are proud when their children surpass their accomplishments. why do humans have this but not god if we are made in his image?
As I stated earlier God gave us free will to choose to love Him or not.
Where did you get the notion that God isn't proud of His children?
He loves us indeed.
Unfortunately by not choosing God, it also means you want the alternative which is eternal separation from Him.

But if eternal separation means just to not exist anymore, where is the justice for the sins committed?
If a man rapes and murders your mother and has no remorse, would you be satisfied with his punishment of just obliteration into nothing?
Is that YOUR sense of justice?

__________________
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:33 PM #6740
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Guess i'm a little late to the party

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Old 05-04-2016, 03:38 PM #6741
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The problem you have defining atheism as a "lack of belief", is that it's no longer a position on god's existence, it's just a psychological state. And it's quite silly to defend a position that god does not exist, call yourself an atheist, then try to redefine the traditional meaning of the word atheist from an actual position that requires defense, "god does not exist" to "I lack belief in god". I have no doubt you lack belief in god, and we aren't debating if you believe god exists are we.
currently we've been debating whether your god exists. propose another and I'll tell you how likely I think they are based on available evidence

both of tese videos are relevant to the current discussion, with respect to the last few pages of this thread, and my response to both duke and RB





Quote:
Indeed God knows the end from the beginning, there are no surprises to God.
He knew (and knows) that Israel would keep straying away, and not only Israel but all peoples of all nations.
Here the Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman in Matt 15:22 begged Jesus for mercy and help with her daughter's demonic possession.
Jesus' response was not one of judgement though, as it first may seem on the surface. He is coaxing out a response from her for the benefit of the crowd and the audience (the reader).
He is in fact demonstrating that by faith (even in the face of supposed rejection from him because she was a gentile), He demonstrates His Grace and forgiveness for anyone who seeks and asks of Him.
He in fact is drawing everyone, not just Israel, to Him through Grace, not judgement, for it is by Grace we are saved through faith....

Notice though that God makes a way for man to come back to God through God's Grace via Jesus' sacrifice.

In the Gospels we are told that when Jesus died He went down Hades to set the righteous free. Before that time anyone that died went down there.
If they were righteous they would be with Abraham and if they were wicked they would be on the other side of Hades, in torment.
You see, no one was allowed into heaven until Jesus died and rose again, so that He could atone for everyone's sins.
so your contention is that no human prior to the sacrifice of christ had access to heaven? you seem to agree that gentiles are capable of demonstrating faith and you say when jesus died he went to hades to set the righteous free. did that include righteous gentiles? if so, why even bother distinguishing isreal from gentiles and why were one of these groups said to be god's chosen people?

and this brings me to another point I have mentioned in the past. after christ, that is the only way to salvation, no? does it not say none come to the father but through me? wouldn't that mean that every human living in south america after 0 AD goes to hell because they didn't hear about Christ? for god so loved the WORLD, that he was ok with letting those indiginous people wait over a thousand years to hear about it, and was ok with the people who first told them about it also bringing about the downfall of their empires and death of most of their people via smallpox and genocide. you know, manifest destiny. do I have that right? they would be judged as sinners and cast into the firey pit if they fail to believe the people who destroyed their nations and culture about what real righteousness is?

Quote:
rather a remark of disappointment for them.
your contention then is that a being who both created the universe and knows everything that is ever going to happen in it could be dissapointed? that doesnt make sense to me.

Quote:
The fact that He told them not to eat from that tree that He put in the garden does not in anyway imply God enjoys punishing man or tempts man.
so he knew he would have to punish men before doing it but did it anyway, and you say he does not enjoy it. so he creates a universe knowing he will not enjoy it and be disappointed. what is he, a masochist? that would explain the torture fettish. we are really getting to know god here aren't we?

looks like even believers can't agree on the whole original sin thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Quote:
Yes, God knew that Adam & Eve would 'fall'. When He asked: "What have you done?" it wasn't a surprised question but rather a remark of disappointment for them.
The fact that He told them not to eat from that tree that He put in the garden does not in anyway imply God enjoys punishing man or tempts man.
I have raised my children on our property and have pointed out the dangers to them, I have a gun safe smack bang in the middle of our residence.
I have warned them about the dangers of guns and I have also told them where the keys are. Am I tempting them? No.
They know it is dangerous if they disobey and miss-use the guns.
I have told them which ones they can use and which ones they are to stay away from.
Now I know it's a crude example but it does convey that just because God placed that Tree there does not mean He is tempting them.
In fact it shows that man chose to disobey God.
Don't think Adam and Eve where little kiddies running around in the garden and God irresponsibly left them unattended (as in your example of how you put it). Adam and Eve where grown adults when this happened, as shown by their response, "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."
Ok but the dangers of your guns are demonstrable. god never demonstrated what he meant by death, and it was also an artificial consequence imposed by him, not directly related to eating the fruit. why make such a strange and arbitrary rule and consequence then put the trigger in the middle of their paradise? me personally, it makes me think of this (well, minus the end, which was changed by whoever uploaded this):



also, practical question. if god made everything, and knows what everything and everyone will do, how is that different from a computer simulation running? how would I be able to distinguish if I have free will or am just hardware running god's program? put another way, how can god be said to have made everything and know what it will do but not be said to be forcing it to happen? on what basis do you punish one with no free will or who is just following god's program? If god knew before i was born, that I would become atheist and eventually need sending to hell, how could I ever go against that if salvation was my wont?

Quote:
God knew Pharaoh crossed over the point of no return and hence the statement, "Then God hardened Pharaoh's heart". No violation of free will occurred
Huh? so god can harden a heart without violating free will. um, ok sure.

Quote:
And again, God did not bet against the Devil about Job, that's a very erroneously simplistic analysis of what happened.
Here God proves to the Devil (and to us the reader) that the righteous know about the Grace of God, and it is that Grace that makes us love Him.
You see, Job in the end was blessed two-fold and gained back more than he lost in the first place. No violation of free will.
money doesnt have to have been exchanged for this to qualify as a bet. satan challenged god regarding Job's piety. god chose to give in to this challenge and allow satan to mess up Job's life. if god knows the future he knew no amount of sickness or servants, family members, livestock, etc lost would cause Job to give up his faith. so the exercise was pointless but god permitted it anyway. or I guess, making it a point and putting in his book was reason enough, even though many innocents died. I guess no one can tempt god, except satan. gotta always prove your point to that A-hole. you say Job was blessed and replaced two fold. I'm sorry you see human lives as so exchangeable. lets say I killed your kids but then blessed your wife to become pregnant with twice as many. you'd be ok with that?

Quote:
Onan exercised his free will, no violation there either.
In fact the Bible tells us that his older brother Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD;
It was Onan's obligation under their laws to continue on the bloodline.
He disobeyed God too and so he died too.
There was a purpose for this continuation of the bloodline for it was this bloodline that appears in Jesus' linage.
Onan disobeying this leads to a sorted affair with the widow Tamar and her father in law Judah, where she tricks him into an affair without Judah knowing it was her which leads to her falling pregnant with her father in laws child.
Onan's disobedience had opened the way for Satan to violate the linage of Jesus hence why God slew him.
so god can intervene to preserve his narrative for no reason other than to preserve Christ's inheritance to the throne of isreal which is mostly irrelevant to the entire point of the excercise which is to redeem everyone. ok sure. on what basis does god decide to kill people immediately as with his destruction of sodom and gomorrah, the flood, killing onan, etc vs. just letting them play out their lives and judge them afterwards, as is implied by the parable told by christ in matthew 13: 24-30?

Quote:
As I stated earlier God gave us free will to choose to love Him or not.
Where did you get the notion that God isn't proud of His children?
I got it from the story of the tower of babel. god punished humans for working together and confounded their languages to prevent it. obviously I dont believe the story, pretty sure humans are smart enough to learn other languages and this would only temporarily stop their communication. cute story though. but the bible says:

And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 6 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 7 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.

doesnt sound like a god who wants his children to accomplish too much or is proud of their cooperation

Quote:
Unfortunately by not choosing God, it also means you want the alternative which is eternal separation from Him.
so not chosing god, (both because I question his status as a thing that exists, and even if he exists, I question his proposed status as a being of ultimate and perfect morality) means I chose to be seperate from him? your contention is that I can CHOSE seperation from something I don't even think exists?

Quote:
But if eternal separation means just to not exist anymore, where is the justice for the sins committed?
If a man rapes and murders your mother and has no remorse, would you be satisfied with his punishment of just obliteration into nothing?
Is that YOUR sense of justice?
but god punishes all sin with hell. since rape, murder and petty theft are all ultimately punished equally, that means they are all equally wrong to do? infinite wailing and gnashing of teeth for crimes ranging from swiping $5 from someone to what hitler and Mao did. that's your sense of justice? where does remorse come into play and learning the lesson? it doesnt, and infinite torture for crimes becomes pretty indistinguishable from torture just for the fun of it

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It's because God showed me Grace and Mercy even in the face of my disobedience.
yeah pretty merciful to not punish you forever for your finite crimes. very kind of him to create an arbitrary way out of that, if you believe. at least you don't need to mutilate the perfect genitals god gave you anymore to demonstrate your devotion, now you can simply believe in an ancient human sacrifice. why wouldnt a logical person conclude that their various wrongs can be forgiven by a blood sacrifice? that makes so much more moral sense than learning right from wrong and correcting your mistakes and demonstrating remorse and empathy
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Old 05-04-2016, 05:20 PM #6742
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
currently we've been debating whether your god exists. propose another and I'll tell you how likely I think they are based on available evidence
I'm only convinced of the one so I won't be doing that, and to be honest I probably won't make the time watch those, sum them up if you have a point to make.
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Old 05-04-2016, 06:14 PM #6743
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm only convinced of the one so I won't be doing that, and to be honest I probably won't make the time watch those, sum them up if you have a point to make.
the first vid is directly relevant. it's only ten minutes. much shorter than exodus: patterns of evidence, which I watched.
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Old 05-04-2016, 06:31 PM #6744
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Then I will check out the first video when I can, but do notice how I didn't try to discredit it without watching it
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Old 05-10-2016, 07:39 PM #6745
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I got to watching it and I want to comment on 3 things that stood out to me.

1) I didn't find it a satisfying explanation that "lack of belief in god" falls under atheism. He explains well how a person can come to a neutral position on a belief, but not why it makes sense to categorize these people with the same people who reject the existence of God. It's pointless to define it this way ...

Theism: “God exists.” - is either true or false
Atheism: “God does not exist.” - is either true or false
Agnosticism: “God may or may not exist.” - is true

If you change it to "I lack belief in God", then regarding God's actual existence it's neither true nor false. It's not actually taking a position on God's existence.

But if you insist that atheist should encompass both rejection and lack of belief in God then it would make things much more clear it you would refer to yourself then as a "weak atheist". Which I noticed was cleverly left out of the video.

2) I'm still finding huge faults in his basic misunderstanding, or intentional misleading of Christian & Biblical beliefs. You'll be hard pressed to find biblical support that shows God needs worship in that he would deficient without it.

3) When he plays his song of moral injustices it makes a very hollow sound.
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Old 05-10-2016, 07:58 PM #6746
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post

Theism: “God exists.” - is either true or false
Atheism: “God does not exist.” - is either true or false
Agnosticism: “God may or may not exist.” - is true
Atheism as I perceive it: "God does not exist. God like beings may or may not exist."
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:25 PM #6747
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
....

He explains well how a person can come to a neutral position on a belief, but not why it makes sense to categorize these people with the same people who reject the existence of God.
sure he did, they both are free to debunk theistic claims

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Originally Posted by THEDukeAnumber1 View Post
If you change it to "I lack belief in God", then regarding God's actual existence it's neither true nor false. It's not actually taking a position on God's existence.
I have taken a position on the existence of your god

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
But if you insist that atheist should encompass both rejection and lack of belief in God then it would make things much more clear it you would refer to yourself then as a "weak atheist". Which I noticed was cleverly left out of the video.
at it's most basic, i think lack of belief in a god is the best description of all who call themselves atheists. I dont see it as so different as calling all the various sects of cristianity "christians" even though their specific beliefs may differ substantially. I also think you mischaracterize the weak and strong here. would you like to be called a weak christian by a member of another christian sect just because your beliefs differ form theirs in some way?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You'll be hard pressed to find biblical support that shows God needs worship in that he would deficient without it.
so our arguements against the bible must be biblically supported? so you dont think god needs worship, why does he want it then?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
When he plays his song of moral injustices it makes a very hollow sound.
so your contention is that none who claim to be doing god's work are capable of evil, and that we can easily distinguish between righteous human sacrifice and the non-righteous variety? can you elaborate?
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:12 PM #6748
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I have taken a position on the existence of your god
If you're referring to "I lack belief in God's existence", that's not a position on God's existence. It's position about your mental state, it makes no claims on if he does, does not, or may or may not exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
at it's most basic, i think lack of belief in a god is the best description of all who call themselves atheists. I dont see it as so different as calling all the various sects of cristianity "christians" even though their specific beliefs may differ substantially. I also think you mischaracterize the weak and strong here. would you like to be called a weak christian by a member of another christian sect just because your beliefs differ form theirs in some way?
An agnostic could just as easily fall under the "lack of belief" category. I understand why you may not like the term "weak atheist", but I've noticed it gaining use and it clearly communicates what you believe.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
so our arguements against the bible must be biblically supported?
Yes in the way that to argue against it you need to know what it's saying. His intro is a straw man.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
so your contention is that none who claim to be doing god's work are capable of evil
From what you know of me do you see this as a reasonable conclusion to draw from that statement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
sure he did, they both are free to debunk theistic claims
Agnostics are also free to debunk theistic claims, theists are free to debunk certain theistic claims, yet they are not atheists.
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:36 PM #6749
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

By definition an Atheist takes the position god DOES NOT exist.
By definition an Agnostic takes the position that we CAN NOT KNOW if god exists by using any material evidence. Not that they "don't know", but more over "can't know".
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:26 PM #6750
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I don't mean to divert or derail ongoing discussions but I've been reading this thread on and off since I joined last year. Yesterday was one of those days and based on some fairly recent posts I did my normal Google 'what's that mean' research and ended up on several Occult/Occultism websites. Not the modern magic/sorcery/demonic/etc connotations. These websites claim they're about hidden teachings/knowledge and have a spiritual viewpoint which sounds a lot like a religion. Like this one, Occult Mysteries. In fact, Jesus comes up a lot.

Anyone here practice Occultism or have a strong opinion? Just curious, not looking to join a club.

EDIT: Not a troll question. Honest.


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Old 05-13-2016, 10:33 AM #6751
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by OVNI View Post
I don't mean to divert or derail ongoing discussions but I've been reading this thread on and off since I joined last year. Yesterday was one of those days and based on some fairly recent posts I did my normal Google 'what's that mean' research and ended up on several Occult/Occultism websites. Not the modern magic/sorcery/demonic/etc connotations. These websites claim they're about hidden teachings/knowledge and have a spiritual viewpoint which sounds a lot like a religion. Like this one, Occult Mysteries. In fact, Jesus comes up a lot.

Anyone here practice Occultism or have a strong opinion? Just curious, not looking to join a club.

EDIT: Not a troll question. Honest.
I don't think that is off topic. I certainly have some strong opinions. I have studied occultism off and on for many years since I was 18. I have before briefly described my haunted house experience when I was 8 years old and I would say that left me very open minded and really changed my thinking. In the next few years I had some strange experiences with other kids using a Ouija board, sometimes one or more adults were participating, it has been 40 years since I touched one and I wouldn't use one today, but this certainly left me more open minded. When I was 18 I met a man who could to a good extent predict the future accurately in some detail, he used numerology and the tarot, I got to see his library of books and I became more interested. I began buying and reading books over the years. I have read books that I would not recommend anyone read, some hidden knowledge isn't meant for all and should remain hidden. My father was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite although he would never talk about it much if I asked him questions. For years I thought about joining AMORC or the Masons but I never did.

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Old 05-13-2016, 04:21 PM #6752
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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