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Old 05-03-2016, 06:12 PM #6721
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This thread needs a poll at the top.
People converted or who've otherwise had their mind changed by the religion discussion. Yes or No? XD


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Old 05-03-2016, 06:15 PM #6722
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Razako View Post
Personally I don't identify with any particular religion, but I've always found this stuff very interesting to think about.
Oh I do enjoy thinking about it, and as far as trolling goes... I'm a pastafarian

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Originally Posted by ElectricPlasma View Post
But, that doesn't prove much. How can we prove that consciousness or creativity is motivation for freedom?
And goes to the question of what it means to be free as well. We are never free of our bodies, our basic needs, and few if any are free from social and other obligations, even those that are self imposed.

Had "god" wanted us to experience true freedom, why would he have put so many constraints on our abilities, and with so many requirements?
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:23 PM #6723
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Oh I do enjoy thinking about it, and as far as trolling goes... I'm a pastafarian



And goes to the question of what it means to be free as well. We are never free of our bodies, our basic needs, and few if any are free from social and other obligations, even those that are self imposed.

Had "god" wanted us to experience true freedom, why would he have put so many constraints on our abilities, and with so many requirements?
What are your thoughts on Buddhist beliefs? Basically that there are 'different plains of existence', and that we're currently in one of the lower levels. By living a life of righteousness and honor you can then ascend to a higher state without suffering and toil. If you fail you get reincarnated to suffer again.

I've actually always kinda wondered what exactly Buddhists believe in. Do they believe in a God or creator? The soul? Purpose of life?
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:47 PM #6724
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I think Buddhism is one of the more harmless religions out there, but aside from the very basics, know relatively little about their beliefs.

Mostly I feel the same way about it as I do the other religions... people took a story too seriously.
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Old 05-03-2016, 07:33 PM #6725
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I also don't know if the whole "Life sucks, so there can't be a God" argument goes deep enough for my liking.
I've never really been able to buy into that line of thinking either,

Suffering exists therefore god does not exist or god does not reveal himself to my personal liking therefore he does not exist.

I think I.E. put it well, much of it is an emotional problem rather than a logical one.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:07 PM #6726
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The problem is, belief in god/religion is not rational either. There has been no empirical evidence to support that a belief in god, and religious practices result in a sufficient gain through the practice of those beliefs.

There some benefits to religion, there is no doubt of that, but on the whole, nothing that cannot be achieved without the introduction of "god" and religion into the mix.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:49 PM #6727
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I'll take the opportunity and agree with IE here.
wait, what? does that mean you think god does reveal himself to everyone? I haven't heard a peep.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I've never really been able to buy into that line of thinking either,

Suffering exists therefore god does not exist or god does not reveal himself to my personal liking therefore he does not exist.

I think I.E. put it well, much of it is an emotional problem rather than a logical one.
no arguement here.

as for the poll, I am a convert. not from this thread, I was already atheist before joining LPF.

also, on the whole atheist/agnostic thing. to me, claiming to be atheist doesnt mean I think it's impossible for a god to exist, it means I lack a belief in a god. that's it. there are no gods men have proposed that seem evident to me. to me agnostic means;

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

they are related but seperate concepts to me.
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:17 PM #6728
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Any kind of direct divine action would have removed our free will to an extent. Who would do the wrong things if they knew there was a God who'd judge us based on our actions?
This is easily shown to be false by anyone that believes in Lucifer and fallen angels. They sure as hell knew beyond any doubt that God existed yet they still choose to not follow him. The whole "proof of Gods existence would negate our freewill" argument is a weak one.
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:27 PM #6729
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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People converted or who've otherwise had their mind changed by the religion discussion.
Yes. I have. Not here, but other similar religious discussion has changed my mind.

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Was God supposed to step in and smite those responsible down with lightning bolts? Doing so would violate the whole free will thing as stated above.
I believe it was Tracie Harris that said something to the effect of "that's the difference between me and your God. If I could stop a child rape, I would. Your God watches this, while thinking to himself 'You go ahead. But I'm going to punish you for this a few decades from now.'"

Of course, the "problem of evil" can be explained away by the notion that perhaps all evil is part of a greater good we cannot see or understand.

A more compelling argument is the argument from divine hiddenness. If there's a God and he wants to have a personal relationship with me, why does he make no attempt to establish a relationship with me? As an omniscient being, he would know precisely what it would take to reach out in a way I can understand. Yet he remains silent and hidden. Either there is no god, or the god that exists doesn't want me to know he exists. Notice how these two possibilities are indistinguishable from my perspective.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:05 AM #6730
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Yes. I have. Not here, but other similar religious discussion has changed my mind.

I believe it was Tracie Harris that said something to the effect of "that's the difference between me and your God. If I could stop a child rape, I would. Your God watches this, while thinking to himself 'You go ahead. But I'm going to punish you for this a few decades from now.'"
Its interesting you bring up Tracie Harris within the context of making your point. Although I had already been moving towards non-belief it was a comment she made that was the defining moment and put the final nail into the coffin of theism for me. She is truly an amazing mind and beautiful human being.
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:09 AM #6731
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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result in a sufficient gain through the practice of those beliefs
What is sufficient gain?


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also, on the whole atheist/agnostic thing. to me, claiming to be atheist doesnt mean I think it's impossible for a god to exist, it means I lack a belief in a god. that's it.
Under that definition it's no longer a viewpoint and every blade of grass in my lawn becomes an atheist, kind of silly isn't it.

Theism: “God exists.”
Atheism: “God does not exist.”
Agnosticism: “God may or may not exist.”
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:46 AM #6732
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
every blade of grass in my lawn becomes an atheist, kind of silly isn't it.
perhaps. While it IS true each blade of grass lacks a belief in a god, it's generally assumed "someone (aka some sentient being) that lacks a belief in a god". Furthermore, most people don't try equating such things with plants.

Since you love analogies so much:
Person 1: "A layman is someone that lacks professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject."
Mr DukeA: "By that definition, my pansies and cacti are laymen, which is just silly! You're silly!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Atheism: “God does not exist.”
Agnosticism: “God may or may not exist.”
That's not what atheism is, strictly speaking. It's more: "A god may or may not exist. However, I have not been provided without enough evidence to warrant belief in a god." Agnosticism is an epistemological standpoint on what can be known, or what is knowable. It is separate from belief.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:32 AM #6733
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
This is easily shown to be false by anyone that believes in Lucifer and fallen angels. They sure as hell knew beyond any doubt that God existed yet they still choose to not follow him. The whole "proof of Gods existence would negate our freewill" argument is a weak one.
This is a good point and I would say it's correct. The bible clearly tells us this if we were to assume that the history and the stories are true. The bible very clearly describes a war in heaven, it started with an attempt to overthrow God and replace him with Lucifer. Also in the first books of the Old Testament remember when God spoke to Moses and told him to lead his people out of Egypt, after much problems he did. For very many years God continued to speak to them and would appear to them sometimes, but they eventually rejected God and wanted to be ruled by a human king like everyone else. Of course not all of them rejected God but enough of them that God granted their wish, after that God did not speak to them directly but only through prophets.

I think people's free will or personality or what they will do doesn't necessarily change based on what they know.

Alan
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:39 AM #6734
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
What is sufficient gain?
Oh you know, nothing too big for an all powerful deity... someone coming back from the dead, after 3 days, would work.

But the answer would depend on any qualifiers you would want to introduce.

Except for maybe wealth, as the clergy for the most part never seem to lack for money.

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I think people's free will or personality or what they will do doesn't necessarily change based on what they know.
That's crazy, knowledge and experience are two sides of the same coin, and our experiences certainly do shape our personalities, both in subtle ways and far more overtly through conditioning.

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Old 05-04-2016, 04:56 AM #6735
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
That's crazy, knowledge and experience are two sides of the same coin, and our experiences certainly do shape our personalities, both in subtle ways and far more overtly through conditioning.
Experiences yes, knowledge alone I am not so sure, a person can be very knowledgable and still be an idiot. Knowledge plus experience brings wisdom.

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Old 05-04-2016, 08:18 AM #6736
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post

I think people's free will or personality or what they will do doesn't necessarily change based on what they know.
Alan
I fully agree. We could even go a step further and point to not only fallen angels and the devil, but regular folks living in the here and now. There are people that believe God exists but are angry at him and refuse him. The knowledge of God would not negate our freedom to willingly choose to kneel.

So why is it that god refuses to make himself known therefor damning millions of souls to eternal torment that weren't able to determine that Christianity was the correct proposed religion. After all, faith, the the act of believing in something without evidence, could be applied to any of the worlds religions. Religions that also have as much or as little evidence and plausibility as Christianity. Some even worship the same God, the God of Abraham aka Yahweh.

So if God really loved each soul and wanted them to choose correctly one would think he would not be playing peekaboo when the stakes are so high.

If the answer is because some people back in BCE we're disrespectful to God, doesn't that seem like the worlds biggest grudge ever held? Once again just like Adam and Eve peoples eternal soul damned for eternity over the sins of men that go back thousands of years.

Is there any other situation that a punishment this disproportionate and this severe would seem right to you other than religion?
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