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Old 04-27-2016, 10:23 PM #6705
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
... my 91 year old mother who I take care of ...
Not that my opinion has any research behind it, weight, or any kind of authority but to me that alone will be enough (for whatever that means to people individually) for you. That's what a loved one of mine believes. And I tend to lean toward believing that belief will get you there.

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... I will pass away in the near future, hopefully not for several years yet but could also be today or tomorrow ...
Good luck and I hope things get easier. My dad may likely be gone soon too. So when your time comes, if you find the time (again whatever that might mean), say hi for me. I can't articulate very well why but I think you two might have a lot in common.


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Old 04-28-2016, 03:10 AM #6706
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I hate to be the one that walks away, but I can only take so much condescension. I'll be around but the discourse between you and me can't continue this way.
I feel you man. if you have to chose between toning it down or speaking your mind, I'd prefer the latter. obviously I feel strongly on this subject, so it just comes through that way sometimes. you have as much right as I

thanks for the response alan. I cant help but wonder why god would allow this amount of division and confusion in his word. to me that indicates non-divine origins, but maybe god likes us guessing at it and trying to piece it together with what we have.

I've sorta started looking into Islam. as it's a younger religion, their text pre emptively addresses some of the problems other religions have, to nip em in the bud I guess. it seems to me the writers heard challenges to christianity and thought, "we cant have that" and proceeded to take care of it. they try to make it airtight and preclude every possibility that they could be wrong. I think they believe the book is divinely protected from alteration. the fanatical devotion of many muslims is the result

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Old 05-02-2016, 07:11 PM #6707
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 05-02-2016, 09:12 PM #6708
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Nicely done IE

Haven't posted in this thread until now, and damn looks like quite the war goes on here. I'm very neutral on the subject, I don't have any beliefs, so I guess I would side towards science... Besides, what can't science prove?
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:41 PM #6709
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

There are literally infinite questions that science cannot provide answers to as of yet. Many questions we don't even know to ask, let alone prove the answers to.

The difference as I see it, is science doesn't attempt to provide an answer to all questions. Only one at a time, and the answer is often, we still don't know, and that's OK.

Decided to pop in here because yesterday my aunt and uncle asked me point blank how I identify when it comes to religion. (It's a topic I generally do not bring up around religious relatives in the interests of preserving peace.)

Point blank answer was "atheist".
"Agnostic?"
"No atheist."
"What does that mean?"
"Agnostics permit for the possibility of a god. Atheists do not."

Uncle (physicist, and engineer btw) quickly changed subjects, thankfully.

From a non rational point of view, I refuse to consider any religion that relies upon a kind a merciful god. Which applies to most of them.
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Old 05-03-2016, 02:24 AM #6710
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
From a non rational point of view,
So I don't ask the wrong question, could you elaborate a little more on that?
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:08 AM #6711
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yes, from emotion, having seen what I've seen, and having had the experiences I've had, having known many to have gone through so much more, simply out of emotion, I cannot believe that there's a kind god because any action would have been kinder than inaction.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:15 AM #6712
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Yes, from emotion, having seen what I've seen, and having had the experiences I've had, having known many to have gone through so much more, simply out of emotion, I cannot believe that there's a kind god because any action would have been kinder than inaction.
Well said IE, well said indeed.
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:09 PM #6713
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I suppose you know this already but that same emotion could drive someone to God.

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If God does not exist, then we are locked without hope in a world with pointless and unredeemed suffering.
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:16 PM #6714
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Yes, from emotion, having seen what I've seen, and having had the experiences I've had, having known many to have gone through so much more, simply out of emotion, I cannot believe that there's a kind god because any action would have been kinder than inaction.
Any kind of direct divine action would have removed our free will to an extent. Who would do the wrong things if they knew there was a God who'd judge us based on our actions?

That's the religious explanation at least. Our life here could be viewed as a test and if God headed our prayers and healed the sick, stopped wars etc it would defeat the point of said test. You wouldn't be able to judge the true character of people without a little adversity.

Yes, that means God couldn't be considered all loving and all kind, but is that really what you would want? Think about parents. If they're all loving and kind their kids will turn into spoiled brats.

I'm not saying that this is all true, but think about it. If people knew for a fact that there was a God/Goddess/Gods etc and that there was a heaven/hell, it would dramatically change the progress of humanity. Many human achievements have been driven by those who think we need to look out for ourselves. If everybody just had a "God will provide" attitude then the drive to innovate and achieve might be dimmed for some.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:17 PM #6715
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

A little adversity? The holocaust was a little adversity? How about earthquakes, tornadoes, and so on? What are they?

Test of character? Visit a pediatric oncology ward sometime, and tell me how those kids characters are being tested.

How about the elderly who are literally no longer themselves because of dementia? Are they to be judged for their actions borne of addled minds?

Free will? So god creates us in his own image, with the ability to think, to reason, to feel. Yet there is a concern that with these endowments, simply even revealing himself would cause problems? That's absurd, given how many problems arise from not revealing himself.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:26 PM #6716
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Free will? So god creates us in his own image, with the ability to think, to reason, to feel. Yet there is a concern that with these endowments, simply even revealing himself would cause problems? That's absurd, given how many problems arise from not revealing himself.
I'll take the opportunity and agree with IE here.

@ Razako

A lot of backwards, sort of absurd-ish thinking there.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:40 PM #6717
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
A little adversity? The holocaust was a little adversity? How about earthquakes, tornadoes, and so on? What are they?

Test of character? Visit a pediatric oncology ward sometime, and tell me how those kids characters are being tested.

How about the elderly who are literally no longer themselves because of dementia? Are they to be judged for their actions borne of addled minds?

Free will? So god creates us in his own image, with the ability to think, to reason, to feel. Yet there is a concern that with these endowments, simply even revealing himself would cause problems? That's absurd, given how many problems arise from not revealing himself.
Disclaimer: I don't personally know if I believe in all of the following, but this is what religions will say.

The holocaust and other horrors were the work of evil human beings. God had nothing to do with them. Was God supposed to step in and smite those responsible down with lightning bolts? Doing so would violate the whole free will thing as stated above.

Some religions will say that natural disasters, famines, plagues and such are the result of God being angry with mankind. Considering all the horrific stuff humans do to one another that would almost seem understandable. Either that, or such events are just part of a 'randomized' system that was created.

The same could apply to kids with cancer or elders with dementia. Either our bodies were created by evolution(with many flaws and errors) or our genetics were intentionally created with a degree of randomness(for good or for bad).

Lastly, many religions also bring up the concept of evil to explain some of the bad stuff in the world. Maybe little kids get cancer because of some evil force that wants to break our spirits.

Some of this stuff is obviously pretty far-fetched, but I also don't know if the whole "Life sucks, so there can't be a God" argument goes deep enough for my liking.
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Last edited by Razako; 05-03-2016 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:48 PM #6718
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

With regards to free will, let's equate that to another popular, though fictional freedom.

Freedom of speech.

Most thing that it means they can spout whatever they want, wherever they want, and that people must listen, and act accordingly.

Except it doesn't. Freedom of speech, legally, only applies to the government not being allowed to prevent you from said speech. Nowhere is there an implication that the government can't refute what you say, or that people must listen.

So why, with religion, do we accept that position that we lose free will if god chooses to intervene? My dog is free to shit on the floor, but he knows I'm not gonna like it, and will yell a little at him, if I find a mess.

The other arguments... they've been tossed around here to no end, and addressed imo.

So it seems if there is a god... he's either a completely uncaring one, to whom we less than ants in a glass ant farm. Or alternatively, god is quite evil.

Huh. Hail Satan?
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:05 PM #6719
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
With regards to free will, let's equate that to another popular, though fictional freedom.

Freedom of speech.

Most thing that it means they can spout whatever they want, wherever they want, and that people must listen, and act accordingly.

Except it doesn't. Freedom of speech, legally, only applies to the government not being allowed to prevent you from said speech. Nowhere is there an implication that the government can't refute what you say, or that people must listen.

So why, with religion, do we accept that position that we lose free will if god chooses to intervene? My dog is free to shit on the floor, but he knows I'm not gonna like it, and will yell a little at him, if I find a mess.

The other arguments... they've been tossed around here to no end, and addressed imo.

So it seems if there is a god... he's either a completely uncaring one, to whom we less than ants in a glass ant farm. Or alternatively, god is quite evil.

Huh. Hail Satan?
Well, the old testament God does seem like quite the angry deity. Flooding the world to punish humanity for their sins and razing whole cities with fire and brimstone. Kicking Adam and Eve out of paradise for the sin of eating an apple.

You're pretty much getting into why the church of Satan is even a thing. Basically it's a bunch of people either doing it to troll religions or because they feel like "God" is actually the bad guy.

Personally I don't identify with any particular religion, but I've always found this stuff very interesting to think about.
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Last edited by Razako; 05-03-2016 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:06 PM #6720
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
With regards to free will, let's equate that to another popular, though fictional freedom.

Freedom of speech.

...

So why, with religion, do we accept that position that we lose free will if god chooses to intervene? My dog is free to shit on the floor, but he knows I'm not gonna like it, and will yell a little at him, if I find a mess.

The other arguments... they've been tossed around here to no end, and addressed imo.
But why are we influenced and motivated by this "freedom"? Creativity? Conciousness?

To me, there are two roads you could go down to answer this, science, and religion.

Some say conciousness is a phenomenon that it does not actually exist, that it is just a conception and everything we think of is linear with time. Really kinda screws with your mind when you think about that, but also makes complete sense

But, that doesn't prove much. How can we prove that conciousness or creativity is motivation for freedom? And how can we even prove either of which exists? How do people who side with a particular religion think of this, perhaps as a gift or an aspect of their God?
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