Old 04-25-2016, 06:05 AM #6689
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Rivem View Post
Why do people like to argue about religion so much? There's only a miniscule chance that you could ever change somebody else's mind on the matter, and arguing about it online instead of face-to-face between friends decreases that chance even more. Honestly a waste of time to me. Just yelling at a wall in both directions.

What others' religions mean to me are only moral foundations. Religion and science are not necessarily mutually exclusive. They don't have to overlap either. Using science as religion is not appropriate in the sense of science, and using religious teachings as scientific fact isn't really the point.

We should all just get along and agree to disagree but still be open to at least learn what others think without criticizing them.

Just my opinion. Threads like this just have too much of a tendency to become toxic.

If we're still saying religious alignments, I was born, raised, and confirmed Catholic, but I lean a bit too agnostic to consider myself 100% Catholic.
I enjoy debate. I also do care about the truth. there is a chance the christians could convince me, though I a lot would have to happen for that to come to pass, I didnt deconvert easliy...

the moment you do not allow for the possiblity that you could be wrong is the moment the truth is not your primary concern any more.

religion does make scientific claims though, so there should be defenders any time that happens. science as religion? only the religious normally equate it in an attempt to make it seem to be on more even ground, the pot calling the silverware black. or claiming that it takes faith to believe science

ideas must be subjectable to scrutiny or what Use are they? I'm sure the christians would agree. I hope they would. it's inevitble they will be offended by some of my beliefs and I by some or many of theirs

at the end of the day though, I still think we're more alike than different, i even am willing to bet the vast majority of our moral judgements would align.

if you don't like defending your own ideas and prefer a criticism free safe space, I would steer clear o here.

RB, you clearly are very familiar with "the word". It is a complex and lengthy book but I think maybe it's possible to become so engrossed in it that you cant see the forest for the trees. I don't know every verse but I do know most of the stories and the overall theme. I can't help but see this as a pretty good summary of your beliefs. you could argue some of the points in it, like whether jesus was god or just god's son, (When I was christian I believed the latter) but it make little effect on the overall absurdity of it all. would you disagree with anything abouth this vid:



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Old 04-25-2016, 07:52 AM #6690
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I enjoy debate. I also do care about the truth. there is a chance the christians could convince me, though I a lot would have to happen for that to come to pass, I didnt deconvert easliy...

the moment you do not allow for the possiblity that you could be wrong is the moment the truth is not your primary concern any more.

religion does make scientific claims though, so there should be defenders any time that happens. science as religion? only the religious normally equate it in an attempt to make it seem to be on more even ground, the pot calling the silverware black. or claiming that it takes faith to believe science

ideas must be subjectable to scrutiny or what Use are they? I'm sure the christians would agree. I hope they would. it's inevitble they will be offended by some of my beliefs and I by some or many of theirs

at the end of the day though, I still think we're more alike than different, i even am willing to bet the vast majority of our moral judgements would align.

if you don't like defending your own ideas and prefer a criticism free safe space, I would steer clear o here.
I don't know that you got my point. My issue is that there's usually a thin line between legitimate discussion and "my idea is great and yours completely sucks" that gets danced all over in discussions like these. I just like to be respectful to others' benign beliefs, but this topic is just very delicate for a lot of people. Calling people out in particular on their core beliefs is really not all that productive if there isn't more substance to the conversation than being between relative strangers on an unrelated internet forum. Don't get me wrong though, I'll do it myself and be receptive to friends and family irl.

When you're talking about the "truth," it's still a hard thing to come by and quantify in most situations. Good science is just empirically-based knowledge, and there really isn't too much you can call "truth" since the whole idea is to build up evidence for something until there's no way it can be false without a whole bunch of other well-supported ideas falling apart with it. Science is a passion and pursuit of mine, but it really bothers me when people try to use it in an attempt to disprove people's religion. Yes, there are stories in religions that do come in direct conflict with good scientific knowledge, but they're usually also very metaphorical allegories that have underlying messages from a time when people really hadn't developed good inquiry methods.

On the other side, people that take religious documents as absolute truth on everything don't seem to be reading into the underlying messages that are clearly the intended purpose. There are plenty things in the Bible that are almost certainly not anything that could have happened. On top of that, the information in the Bible has been rewritten and translated way too many times. I recall reading a lot of the later stuff in the New Testament as a kid in Sunday school and thinking, "There's no way this didn't come from a Roman Emperor," which really destroyed my belief in the Bible as a whole over the years.

I do say that some people use science as a religion though. I've met a lot of people that are just as bad as Evangelists/Jehova's Witness/etc. about trying to push some "scientific" belief about creation and existence on others. People also like to latch onto scientifically-based ideas that aren't necessarily well-supported at all and cling to them just like others do to religious ideals. A lot of these people like to say that science has all the answers when that totally goes against the core idea of scientific inquiry. Science has a much better but infinitesimally small chance of getting us all the questions than getting all the answers. There are huge gaps in scientific knowledge that are plastered over by hypotheses that aren't all that much better than a shower thought. I don't see the problem if people want to throw religion or their own ideas over the gaps.

It's good to discuss and share ideas, but negatively criticizing somebody's beliefs when there isn't too much common ground for either of you to stand on or you know neither of you will budge on is futile. It's better to just share your personal opinion than directly attack each other's beliefs.

Morally, humanity is definitely all more or less the same, it's just the most minor details of our interpretations of each other's beliefs that we usually get hung up on.

Obviously, I'm fine with criticism and defending my own ideas. What bothers me is when people jab at each other in roughly the same way over and over as conversations like this which are all to common online tend to go. For a meaningful conversation in something like this, respect and understanding are key. Otherwise it's just pointless entertainment for those involved. Might be a bit unnecessarily hurtful to others though.
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Old 04-25-2016, 08:22 AM #6691
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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People also like to latch onto scientific theories that aren't necessarily well-supported at all and cling to them just like others do to religious ideals. .
To make a statement like this shows you don't at all understand what a scientific theory is.
A model in science could not become a theory unless it is overwhelmingly supported. That's what makes it a scientific theory.

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Originally Posted by Rivem View Post

It's good to discuss and share ideas, but negatively criticizing somebody's beliefs when there isn't too much ground for either of you to stand on or you know neither of you will budge on is futile.
The entire global scientific community in agreement and thousands and thousands of published peer reviewed papers, studies and predictions confirmed in every branch of science is in your own words, not much ground to stand on? Could you explain that? I don't see how anyone could make a statment like this unless they have very little understanding of how science is done and the subject they are trying to discuss or debate.
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Old 04-25-2016, 08:46 AM #6692
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
To make a statement like this shows you don't at all understand what a scientific theory is.
A model in science could not become a theory unless it is overwhelmingly supported such as the Big Bang model, evolution, germ theory ext.
Derp. That's totally correct. I guess hypothesis/idea was what I was going for. That's what I get for operating on low sleep. Totally my bad and something I shouldn't have messed up.

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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
The entire global scientific community in agreement and thousands and thousands of published peer reviewed papers, studies and predictions confirmed in just about every branch of science is not much ground to stand on? Could you explain that?
Another miscommunication of mine. More about common ground I guess. You can't stand on ground that each other respects? I don't know. Negative criticism was my key phrase. I'll revise in the morning. Clearly losing writing coherence.

Edit: I swear I am somewhat a member of the scientific community albeit as a research assistant. Just really don't like mixing my religious beliefs and scientific pursuits. Definitely wasn't clear with what I said, and you picked up the wrong meaning I was trying to convey. Also, don't try to construe me as against scientific interpretation of the universe. That's totally not my point.
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:25 AM #6693
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Rivem View Post
Why do people like to argue about religion so much? There's only a miniscule chance that you could ever change somebody else's mind on the matter,
I don't think many engaging here are trying to change the oppositions mind on the subject. If they are then I would agree that's very foolish. For me I enjoy the great debate for a few reasons.
-I am passionate about the topic as it is in my mind, the most important question a person could ask themselves. Is there a God.
- To properly defend a position you must truly understand said position.
- To learn and expand the understanding of my own beliefs as well as the oppositions beliefs and why.
- To present my case in the hopes of helping other readers think more deeply about the topic as well as de-bunk the massive amount of false and at times dishonest arguments or psuedo science.

My position is not concrete. If the right evidence or argument was presented to me, and I could confirm it as such, I would change my stance. I'm not a Ken Hamm. A person that openly confesses that their is nothing that could change their mind. This intellectually dishonest because this type of person cherry picks science. The methods and standards of science which is beneficial and adequate for medicine and landing on the moon is somehow flawed and not trustworthy the moment it contradicts religious beliefs. Its the same science. Its the same standards and methods. It either produces the best explanations of the natural world or it doesn't.

Unlike some non-believers I wouldn't require proof. Simply providing solid evidence equal to that of the position I accept and I am defending could suffice. I say this because how could I demand absolute proof when my position doesn't offer this. That's a common misconception of what science does and is. Astrophysics does not prove the Big Bang happened. It shows through vigorous standards and redundency that the Big Bang Theory is the best and most supported explanation of what we observe in the natural world. Science doesn't deal in absolutes or truths. It deals in probabilities and in the example of the Big Bang the theory it is simply the most probable explanation of the expanding universe.

Because science doesn't deal in absolute certainty it does not disprove a gods existence. It does however show that with everything we know about the universe the likelihood of a god existing is highly improbable. If a god does exist then we live in a reality that is indistinguishable from one without a god. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is why if an atheist knows their position they would not assert that no gods exists. Not just because they would then shoulder the burden of proof but because its not possible to know with certainty. The atheist position and the one I would defend and argue is whether or not the acceptance of the god claim is justified and rational from the evidence supporting it. I feel the theist claim of a god does not adequately suffice on the evidence presented here or anywhere I have seen.
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Old 04-25-2016, 10:56 AM #6694
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I enjoy debate. I also do care about the truth. there is a chance the christians could convince me, though I a lot would have to happen for that to come to pass, I didnt deconvert easliy...
Agreed.
It's not as though everyone hates each other here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
the moment you do not allow for the possiblity that you could be wrong is the moment the truth is not your primary concern any more.
Very true too.
Once you find the truth though, what happens then?
Do you keep looking for another truth?
Does truth change?
If so, then I would venture to say that you hadn't found truth in the first place.
Imagine you set out to walk to Niagara Falls from Colorado.
You get there after your long tiring journey and then you say to yourself, "This isn't what I expected, there must be another Niagara Falls.
So you set off again to find Niagara Falls."
hmmmm.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
ideas must be subjectable to scrutiny or what Use are they? I'm sure the christians would agree. I hope they would. it's inevitble they will be offended by some of my beliefs and I by some or many of theirs
Again, very true, you need to scrutinise your beliefs and be ready to give an answer for your beliefs, no matter what they are.
Actually, that's biblical.
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
at the end of the day though, I still think we're more alike than different, i even am willing to bet the vast majority of our moral judgements would align.
Absolutely.
Most logical people have good moral judgement.
Unfortunately it's a popular misconception that God will judge us on our morals.
Very wrong, because the Bible says:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

That's why Jesus said:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto you, You must be born again.
The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit. John 3:3-8

True Christians have a born again experience where they ask the spirit of God to enter and change them forever more.
Only then can you truly understand what Jesus meant by these words.

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
if you don't like defending your own ideas and prefer a criticism free safe space, I would steer clear o here.
LOL, very true once again.
That's why a lot of people might get offended reading through this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
RB, you clearly are very familiar with "the word". It is a complex and lengthy book but I think maybe it's possible to become so engrossed in it that you cant see the forest for the trees. I don't know every verse but I do know most of the stories and the overall theme. I can't help but see this as a pretty good summary of your beliefs. you could argue some of the points in it, like whether jesus was god or just god's son, (When I was christian I believed the latter) but it make little effect on the overall absurdity of it all. would you disagree with anything abouth this vid:
People that don't see Jesus as God, actually are the ones that don't see the forest for the trees.
And hence can't come to grips with the Trinity.
That's why mainstream church denominations complicate things with Mary worship and saints worship.

As for the video, I saw it.
You would agree though, that, like any movie or book, the director or author dictates the flow and presents it in a way that he or she wants their message to be conveyed.

So please understand, I didn't write the Bible.
God was the author and has allowed it to be written the way He wanted to convey His message.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivem View Post
I don't know that you got my point. My issue is that there's usually a thin line between legitimate discussion and "my idea is great and yours completely sucks" that gets danced all over in discussions like these. I just like to be respectful to others' benign beliefs, but this topic is just very delicate for a lot of people. Calling people out in particular on their core beliefs is really not all that productive if their isn't more substance to the conversation than being between relative strangers on an unrelated internet forum. Don't get me wrong though, I'll do it myself and be receptive to friends and family irl.
I do hope that I have conducted myself in such a manner that shows I do care and that I do consider the people on here as my friends.
That I'm seen as caring enough to put myself on the line for the truth instead of 'tip toeing' around the topic so as not to hurt people's feelings.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Proverbs 27:6




Quote:
Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
I don't think many engaging here are trying to change the oppositions mind on the subject. If they are then I would agree that's very foolish. For me I enjoy the great debate for a few reasons.
- I am passionate about the topic as it is in my mind, the most important question a person could ask themselves. Is there a God.
- To properly defend a position you must truly understand said position.
- To learn and expand the understanding of my own beliefs as well as the oppositions beliefs and why.
- To present my case in the hopes of helping other readers think more deeply about the topic as well as de-bunk the massive amount of false and at times dishonest arguments or psuedo science.

My position is not concrete. If the right evidence or argument was presented to me, and I could confirm it as such, I would change my stance.
That's exactly how I was until I finally found the answer to that question.

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but that the world through Him might be saved.
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but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
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Old 04-25-2016, 02:40 PM #6695
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Agreed.
It's not as though everyone hates each other here.

I do hope that I have conducted myself in such a manner that shows I do care and that I do consider the people on here as my friends.
That I'm seen as caring enough to put myself on the line for the truth instead of 'tip toeing' around the topic so as not to hurt people's feelings.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Proverbs 27:6

Not calling anybody out or trying to bash the discussion, but I feel like it was taken that way. Just some observations on how these sorts of discussions typically go online and what I don't like about them when they do. I don't think anybody should ever try to skirt around a topic they truly support, but I also think it's best to try to understand and respect where each other are coming from before you start to discuss a delicate topic at the core of some people's identities.

Sorry if anybody felt like I was singling them out instead of venting a frustrating observation. I think most users on this site are pretty considerate (unless we're talking about Joker or his business).

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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
Because science doesn't deal in absolute certainty it does not disprove a gods existence. It does however show that with everything we know about the universe the likelihood of a god existing is highly improbable. If a god does exist then we live in a reality that is indistinguishable from one without a god. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Could we really comprehend what having a god or not having a god would be like? I don't like juxtapositions like that when they're both outside of what we can truly understand.

I mean divine intervention is pretty much unnoticeable in reality, but there's still some incomprehensible scientific effects without clear causality that happened throughout time.

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This is why if an atheist knows their position they would not assert that no gods exists. Not just because they would then shoulder the burden of proof but because its not possible to know with certainty. The atheist position and the one I would defend and argue is whether or not the acceptance of the god claim is justified and rational from the evidence supporting it. I feel the theist claim of a god does not adequately suffice on the evidence presented here or anywhere I have seen.
Atheism doesn't require science or rational reasoning, but it literally is the idea that no deity exists. Those ideas are more agnostic (as I align).

I know there are a lot of mysteries that probably have no hope of being explained, so I'd kinda like some entity to be behind it. Also, I would personally like there to be more to human existence than what's in the physical world. No way to prove or disprove any of it though. Even if there were a way to figure it out, the knowledge is probably just too far past human comprehension.
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Old 04-25-2016, 04:37 PM #6696
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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good to see you can dish it out too
What possibly makes that good. I slip up and step into the arena of ridicule, no progress was made toward the truth.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I'm slightly insulted by your insinuation that all my posts here amount to flawed biblical contradictions. I talk about way more than those. If you've got the energy, you can go back through the thread and see what percentage of my posts relate to a bible contradiction only, and what percentage of your posts relate to the objective truth thing. then we'll have some data to determine who is more repetetive
I've posted very little on "objective truth", I have many posts on "objective morality". I also don't see a problem or even a reason why you wanted to point it out. Although objective morals and truth have been discussed at length, they keep coming up.

And I'm sorry you felt insulted, but in all honesty it's been a pattern. You post a "contradiction" or a youtube video, and my research leads me to find out you don't have a strong case.


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you'd be more justified with this response if we had not already engaged in exchanges already, nothing seems to sink in, disincentivizing me to try to render further intellectual assistance. my time is finite, and I could do greater good elsewhere
Then I won't bother conversing with you in this thread anymore. GL
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Old 04-25-2016, 07:02 PM #6697
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Rivem View Post

Could we really comprehend what having a god or not having a god would be like? I don't like juxtapositions like that when they're both outside of what we can truly understand.
Why wouldn't we? For example had the Prayer Study come back conclusive that prayer actually has an effect on speeding up recovery of the ill that would be confirmation that we live in a world where a God most likely exists. Othewrwise why would they have bothered with the study. (its failed to show this btw))

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I mean divine intervention is pretty much unnoticeable in reality, but there's still some incomprehensible scientific effects without clear causality that happened throughout time.

No way to prove or disprove any of it though. Even if there were a way to figure it out, the knowledge is probably just too far past human comprehension.
I think you mean undetectable which is exactly my point. If the Gods own intervention is undetectable then the world would be the same with or without said God.
The second part of your quoted reply is flat out false. Of coarse there would be a way to definitively show the high probability of Gods existence. I could think of many ways just off the top of my head. Miracles scientifically confirmed, prayer showing to work within controlled studies, NDE's coming back with verifiable detailed predictive information given from God about our future, ext. The problem is all those things have been used to try to show God exists but all have not been able to.
The bottom line of my thinking is such. If there was a God that intervenes daily in millions of people lives would it really be this difficult to detect?

If God created everything and all the laws and rules that govern the universe such as logic and reason. Within that world there is a method and criteria that gives us the best possible chance of determining fact from fiction but for some reason when this method and criteria is used to determine the likeliness of its creator it fails miserably.

Also you seem to be talking about two different things. That the mere detection of god would be beyond our comprehension which I don't see why that would be the case nor do most theist apologists.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:00 AM #6698
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

the saddest part to me is how ridiculous each side sounds to the other. I don't feel you properly understand many of my points, or science, and I've no doubt you think I might change my opinion if I only understood the word better. my mother told me I had to have spirit to understand it properly. How do you get spirit? by believing the bible naturally. So i have to believe it before it will make sense to me, leaving me in a no-win situation. as there's no way I could believe it before it made sense.

I'm sorry you don't think a single point I have brought up is strong, Duke. sorry, but unsuprised.

RB

I think its possible to have the truth or part of it, and think that you are correct. you should just never be so sure that you wont consider anyhting else. but isnt that what the bible teaches? to don the armor of god and not allow these insidious ideas of satan to penetrate?

you think satan tampers with science, how do you know he didnt tamper with the bible too? does it say he can't? what if that is the part he tampered with? I hope you can begin to see why I take no stock in the claim of satan manipulating reality to fool us, because if he can then anything could be true

sure the maker of that vid controlled the flow, but that doesnt mean it is incorrect. how is that not the gist of christianity?

I hafta remember that they really think they are trying to save my soul. they are supposed to be ambassadors of christ. they feel compelled to try and save as many souls as possible before the end, as did I when I was a christian. I can respect that, very much actually. it's not so different from the respect I have for troops. they may think they are fighting and dying to protect our freedom, and often that could be the case. but often they fight and die for corporate interests and other corrupted reasons, something I don't support. however, it's their willingness to lay down their life for others I respect, if not the actual cause they are fighting for.

my aim with believers is to help them free themselves from mental slavery, and promote critical thinking. but the most hopelessly enslaved are those who falsely believe they are free. I'm sure they think the same about me, hence our impass.
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Old 04-26-2016, 02:02 AM #6699
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Old 04-26-2016, 02:48 AM #6700
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I've got non-rhetorical series of questions for any believer who cares to answer.

1. do you think god knows the future in it's entirety and in every detail?

If so, that would mean god knew in advance that isreal would reject him no matter how many chances he gave them. they might come back for a while, but are always led astray again. given this foreknowledge, on what moral basis did god deny salvation to the gentile's this entire time, many of whom I'm sure were every bit as worthy as the one who Jesus encounters in Matthew 15:22?

further, wouldnt it also mean that he knew in advance that adam and eve would eat the fruit, and that as a result he would have to send many to hell? if he knew this and did it anyway, doesnt that imply he enjoys punishing his created things, very sadistically? bonus question, if god cannot be tempted and neither tempteth he any man, why did he put the tree he DID NOT want adam to eat of smack dab in the middle of the garden? if you saw another parent put something they told their kids not to touch right in the middle of their play area, would you say that the parents were tempting their kids? if so, why is it different with god?

2. Is anything god does automatically just, just becasue he is god?

if so, that would mean that it's just to hold a descendant of a person responsible for their ancestor's crimes, and punish finite crimes with infinite punishment. given this, on what basis would you condemn using the death penalty for every crime including petty offences, or condemn north korea for their policy of imprisoning families of criminals? or are you down with that, and if so, why not move there?

Or, is it possible for god to do things that if a human did would make him evil, but because god does it, it's ok?

3. Did god give every human free will?

if so, then why is he justified in removing it like when he hardened pharaoh's heart or made a bet with the devil regarding Job's piety, or when he killed Onan for pulling out instead of ejaculating in his dead brother's widow? (sorry for the vulgarity, but I'm referencing bible stories) or is he justfied in these in order to propel his elaborate pageant? if so, does the rule then become: "you have free will, as long as god feels like it, and you don't happen to be involved in any of his skits". on what moral basis do you punish someone who has no free will?

do you submit to god just because he is "the boss" and carries the biggest stick?

I'm guessing you might say you submit out of love. So I would ask, why is a being who demonstrates behavior no one would tolerate in a human worthy of your love?

bonus follow up questions. why do you think a being who is all powerful would like constant praise and adoration, IE, worship, so much? what pleasure do you think god gets out of his interaction with humans? Why do you think he is more pleased with people coming to him under the possible threat of hell instead of imposing no consequence other than ceasing to exist if one didn't want to be with him after death? If YOU desired love from another, who's would you value more, one who gives it to you under threat, even if the love is real, or one who gives it when they could just as easily walk away?

you might say we are god's children, and children do need discipline. but normal children grow up to be an equal to their parent, and most parents are proud when their children surpass their accomplishments. why do humans have this but not god if we are made in his image?
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Old 04-26-2016, 11:18 PM #6701
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Shaken, I'll answer you tonight when I have a more time, I don't want to seem like I'm just brush off your questions.

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Old 04-27-2016, 01:49 AM #6702
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Shaken, I'll answer you tonight when I have a more time, I don't want to seem like I'm just brush off your questions.

I look forward to it. I have thought about these and more for quite some time. I think they are questions few believers ask themselves or ever consider. I want to make sure you aren't operating with compartmentalized morals, where things that are wrong for us humans to do are ok for god. if they are, I guess that means he's a do as I say not as I do kinda god. that's not a position I think I can align with.

but let's see if you can convince me.

I do apologize for the rapid fire questions. thinking about it now, it's a very "Hovindesque" technique. It'd be cool if you could answer every one, or I guess depending on some answers every relevant one. take your time, no rush. Not for you anyway, my soul's the one on the line. Am I right?

and hey Duke, don't worry about offending me in any degree. I thought your reply showed you were paying attention to some of this, and was an astute and edgy retort. you say ridicule. do as you will man, go in peace
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Old 04-27-2016, 03:39 PM #6703
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Look who's talking. Several times in my lifetime I have experienced or seen something that I can't explain, and science hasn't yet explained them, so I am not too quick to dismiss what others claim to experience or see or photograph or record or take video of. Just because science can't explain it doesn't mean it's not real. I want to know, I want the truth, and I will follow it wherever it leads even if I don't like the looks of where it's going.

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well I've had "experiences that science can't explain" as well, but later had to admit I might not have actually have perceived reality correctly. and no, I'm not talking about being High. our senses are filters, and our mind can constuct fabrications from limited and filtered input from the senses. basically I'm saying that eyewitness testimony can be unrelieable. video and photo can be tampered with as well. ideally, good evidence is reconstuctable or able to be observed all the time

so yeah, I don't dismiss evidence, and there is certainly a group of stuff science can't yet explain, and may never be able to. "look who's talking" implies you don't think I operate in the manner I described. seeing as I do operate that way, I considered for a moment if you had a point, then realized you don't know nearly enough about me, my beliefs, or thought processes to be indignant on the subject. I consider claims before accepting them or not. remember, I used to be a christian and hold the belief in christ as closely as you. it was following the truth where I did not want to go that lead me to where I am today. believe me, the possibilities my woldview has are far more terrifying than when I believed god had everything under control

even so, I suspect we've got far more in common than in difference

so let me ask you, you think the bible is true but also say you follow the truth even when it leads where you do not like. are there any places the bible leads you that you do not like?
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If you were not under the influence of drugs or alcohol or very ill at the time then you are denying reality because you can't handle the truth. Good evidence is not necessarily reconstructable or able to be observed all the time, some things don't happen all the time.



Yes, I don't have time to comment more, I will be busy the rest of today and won't be online for a few hours, I might say more tonight but I don't have the time or energy to write a book.

Alan
Sorry for my lengthy absence. I had two busy days in a row, and one is all I can tolerate, and even then it takes me two days to recover. My health problems are getting worse, I am in a great deal of pain at times and that keeps me from sleeping, to make things worse my 91 year old mother who I take care of has recently been sleeping only 3 or 4 hours at a time, then gets up and wants something to eat or wants to watch a movie, or wants to sit here next to me and listen to the radio or watch the news. I am tired all the time and can't get enough sleep. I should have posted several times here since my last post. I will pass away in the near future, hopefully not for several years yet but could also be today or tomorrow. I have quoted the parts of the discussion I will comment on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I look forward to what you have to say. If I were to venture a guess, it's something about hell. maybe you have friends or family who will be going there. can you enjoy an eternity in paradise with the knowledge that they are suffering immensly? will that put a damper on an otherwise perfect experience? do you suspect god will cause you to forget these people?

also, there are other causes for our senses not to percieve reality correctly, and our brain can recall it incorrectly. ever played telephone? you know our ears can not hear all frequencies. You CERTAINLY know our eyes do not percieve all wavelengths. we need special tools to detect radiation. so yes I'm free to question myself and my experiences without denying reality. there are many components to consider. I should have said, "Ideally evidence" instead of "ideally good evidence" granted
Well I wasn't going to specifically say anything about hell, I was going to say something about Paradise/the Kingdom of Heaven/the Celestial Kingdom or whatever you prefer to call it, I also want to comment on a third place that people go, yes you read that correctly, a third place. This will be too much for some of you including the Christians in this thread, so I'll keep it as short as I can. My experiences and a lifetime of research has led me to believe certain things. Let us now open the cans of worms.

First let me say that I believe we have both a spirit body and a physical body, I believe all biological life does. A physical body can continue living for sometime without the spirit body but will eventually die without it, the spirit body will go on living.

Now first a word about the bible, Satan can and has interfered with religion and with the bible. In 1825 the British and American bible societies came under pressure from several Protestant denominations to remove some books from the bible, and they did. These are still included in catholic bibles as they are in fact part of the official cannon of scripture. The Protestant churches refer to these books as apocrypha, you need a very old bible that is hard to read in old English, or a catholic bible, or you can get a separate apocrypha, this is a problem though with the long versions of Daniel and Esther, it's better to read the complete text properly from beginning to end and not just the missing parts. These texts were known to the Hebrews and to the Jews at Alexandria but apparently were not sacred texts except for the Jews in Alexandria, they are not included in the Hebrew masoretic text. There were a number of arguments why these should be removed from the bible, one book was clearly intended for church leaders and not for the general public, two are mostly considered historical and not inspired text (1st & 2nd Maccabees), one is believed to be pure fiction because it begins with a statement known to be historically inaccurate, also no independent verification of those events (Judith) one of the best books, should be made into a movie. Some of these books are among the Dead Sea scrolls and turned out to be older than previously thought.

There are another very large group of texts called pseudepigrapha, some are very ancient, some maybe not, many were studied by the early church. These texts it is uncertain who wrote them and and when they were first written, so of course they can't measure up to the standards of what should be included in the bible. I believe some of these are inspired text but maybe not meant for everyone, I think the apocrypha should still be part of the bible. I also think that not all of the bible is inspired text, some of it is letters people wrote that were kept and read in churches and were included in the bible just because of who wrote them, and I am not only talking about Paul.

Ok now let's go to the prophet Ezra or Esdras for the Greek version of his name, in your bible you probaly have 1st & 2nd Ezra, some bibles will also have 3rd & 4th Ezra, you will need one of these or an apocrypha that may call them 1st & 2nd Esdras instead of 3rd and 4th Ezra. Nevermind that anyway you don't have to read them. He supposedly wrote ninety something books, only five of them survive today as far as we know, and the last one was finished up by someone after his death. Anyway the important part is where it mentions a place where people go who can't cross over to the other side, it's only one or two sentences if I remember right. There is a great gulf between them and they know what's on the other side and the despair they feel knowing that they can't cross over. I can explain this in some detail, there are some things that can't be explained exactly as they are because there is nothing or no experience to compare them to here in our reality, this is one of them so I will try to explain.

When you pass away or sometimes even with an OBE, if it's sudden and unexpected and maybe not your time yet, then when you leave your body there will be some people come along shortly that will want to talk to you and offer to help you. If it happens slowly and you are expected to die then you may have the light come for you, you may see this light even when you are still alive.

Here is a problem for some, not everyone can enter the light, when you enter that light you leave this world. Hopefully some of you are familiar with the bhuddists idea of karma. Your spirit body carries a certain amount of energy, it needs a certain amount of energy to leave this world. You are familiar with ancient artwork that depicts Jesus and the apostles and other saintly people with a halo over their head or with a glow around them. This isn't something made up, this is something some people can even see. If you do something that harms someone else, the energy that your spirit body has decreases, it doesn't matter what your intentions were. If you do something that helps someone or others then your energy will increase, if you hate everyone and everything then your energy will decrease, if you love everyone and everything then your energy will increase.

This is why we have spirits walking among us here on earth, some can't cross over and some choose not to.

Now back to the subject of Heaven/Paradise, anyone who thinks it's a paradise hasn't read their bible. The bible describes a war in heaven, yes a WAR, Satan himself is a revolutionary who started a civil war that continues to this day. People are people wherever they are.

I know many of you don't believe in an afterlife/spirits/ghosts, but for those who do, have you ever wondered why they tend to hang out in dark and creepy places? The attic, the basement, the abandoned building, that section of a building that's no longer used, etc. it's not because there is something evil hiding in the dark, well at least not usually anyway, it's because it's not dark and creepy to them, they can see in the dark, also we aren't very likely to be going in there much. There is an energy that is everywhere that we can't see or detect, but in your spirit body you see it as visible light.

That's enough for now, I am making this too long.

There is of course no way to prove any of this, so you can just consider it theory/opinion/speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokakku View Post
What did you experience? I once had a inexplicable experience. I was in a house alone. Lots of banging started happening upstairs, like really loud like someone stomping through. In an empty house. No idea what it was, no pipes or anything in the house at the time. Very creepy. I'm as skeptic as they come but sometimes you can't explain everything. But people fear what they don't understand and create boogiemen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I'll bet Pi R has better ones.

I actually had a few crazy ones I can't explain.
You have no idea.

Seven times in my lifetime something impossible to explain has happened. I would also add in some additional experiences with a Ouija board, haven't used one in 40 years and wouldn't today, but if you know how to use one there are some strange things that can happen.

I have in the past briefly described my haunted house experience but didn't go into detail.

I also have described before in detail my two UFO sightings, not sure in what thread that was.

Maybe I'll come back and tell you about them later if someone wants to know. This post is too long and am unable to continue right now.

Alan
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:09 PM #6704
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
and hey Duke, don't worry about offending me in any degree. I thought your reply showed you were paying attention to some of this, and was an astute and edgy retort. you say ridicule. do as you will man, go in peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
disincentivizing me to try to render further intellectual assistance. my time is finite, and I could do greater good elsewhere

I hate to be the one that walks away, but I can only take so much condescension. I'll be around but the discourse between you and me can't continue this way.


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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I will pass away in the near future
Stay healthy Alan, I like having you around.
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