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Old 04-02-2016, 06:12 PM #6625
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I had an NDE-like experience from what I believe was caused by severe obstructive sleep apnea about 20 years ago but I don't know that was the cause as a certainty, but likely. I had some of the experiences which are classic to an NDE, but no traveling through a tunnel on the way there that I can remember, but I do remember a void with a huge self-conscious being in the center of it which was much like a sun. The thing connected with me and saw everything about me instantly, I felt so naked I "ran" the other way, pushing through the void to some kind of membrane barrier which I pushed through, then I found myself in a star filled space and eventually slammed back into my bed with a jolt. There is a lot more to this story than what I just wrote, this is a bare outline. I thought I met God on high, do I know think so? Maybe it was a dream, maybe it was something else and not God at all, maybe it was many things or nothing at all. But I can say this, that experience changed me, I no longer saw each of us as truly separate and more like one life experiencing all the diversity possible by inserting itself into myriads of forms, each with their own bodies, minds, wills and memories separate from one another, but underneath it all, one life.

Am I willing to let go of the idea this was something real and call it a dream? I could, I've tossed that notion around many times, but I was still heavily influenced by the experience, no dream before or after has ever done what this one did to change my whole outlook. Even my coworkers asked me what happened, that I wasn't the same anymore and they liked the change. In essence, I became less of an arse, more loving and accepting of everyone because I just couldn't see us as being individual anymore, sure in body etc, but not in essence.


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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-02-2016, 08:50 PM #6626
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Alaskan,

Dreams can both seem very real, and also reveal/uncover feelings that were previously buried/less obvious...less of a priority.

So, a dream can change your life....just ask Martin Luther King for example.

Did he REALLY dream it, or, simply imagine it to make a point? In fact, it doesn't matter, as in both cases, he created it in his brain.

That doesn't make the words less powerful...or the motivation to change he was promoting less important.


As you know, if you are awakened from a sound sleep by something, a smoke alarm, snoring on the next pillow, having rolled into a bad position or having to use the bathroom, etc...you may even incorporate that into a dream, as you need to transfer from what your senses told your sleeping brain.

This is why people accidentally dream they are using the bathroom and wet the bed, or dream they are hearing an alarm until they realize they are actually hearing an alarm, or, that they are suffering from oxygen deprivation, dying, fell out of bed, etc.

So, if having sleep apnea, and are receiving warning signals that you might be dying, your brain does the same thing to let you know...and, you can have a related dream that startles you into waking up...or, you continue the dream until you wake up dead.

The ones who DON'T wake up are, of course, hard to ask how THAT was like. So we only hear from those who did not actually die on a permanent basis.


So, I don't doubt that many people had many meaningful and life altering dreams, without even needing to almost die.......I just doubt that each person is individually visited by an apparition that just so happens to be whjatever they expect, in their culture and environment.

The common core to NDE is pretty much all explained by the symptoms people experience when the brain starts to be oxygen deprived....with basic themes being pretty common.

They then add what they think they should see or experience, to that basic core...

..and then imbue what they added with magical/supernatural powers to explain it.


Dorothy woke up in bed, and saw her family, who looked like the Oz charactors...and exclaimed, but it was all so REAL. It changed her life, and drove home the moral of the movie, which was to stay home.

She OBVIOUSLY dreamt it all, but it was powerful and changed her life.



So, they COULD have given her sleep apnea, but, a tornado related head wound sufficed for the plot.

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Old 04-03-2016, 12:49 AM #6627
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I guess this means your belief is these experiences are nothing more than false realities being produced within the brain alone?
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

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Old 04-03-2016, 01:01 AM #6628
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

^You say that like the mind is hard to fool.

A more intellectually honest evaluation would go something like this: What I experienced was strange, inexplicable, and unable to be independently verified. Perhaps I should not draw ANY conclusions and just go with "I don't know" until more evidence presents itself.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:15 AM #6629
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I only know it seemed more real than waking consciousness, do you really know what you are experiencing now is more than a dream yourself, or is this question absurd? Nothing is permanent. Just like dream is not permanent, this world is also not permanent. Even when we are awake, we are only day dreaming. The old one goes and the new one takes its place. From my perspective we do dream when we sleep, but we also have waking dreams when we are not asleep, all of self-consciousness is a kind of dream, we dream our reality from moment to moment but when generally in sync with co-experienced world views, we call it reality, yet all of what we experience of the world beyond brain is internalized and recreated within each experiencer in their own way.

I guess the statement you are making is spiritual realities cannot be realities, they cannot exist because they cannot be verified by science or anyone who has not co-experienced them. But, some NDE's have been co-experienced by up to four individuals at one time, I believe. However, such stories could be complete fabricated lies right? Therefore no proof. It is impossible for a complete materialist to receive proof of anything spiritual having independent reality, even with sufficient evidence provided by several individuals who have experienced such realities together because they cannot be measured with an instrument. By definition, a materialist can only accept material existence, my view is their ability to consider the possibilities is far too limited, but that they make great rocket scientists. My thought is science is wonderful and I love it too, but not advanced enough yet to detect anything beyond the matter world, that's all I can make of why we have not found such through our technologies, but as we progress I am certain we will begin to see further and find that we have only been playing with rocks when there is a much finer informational reality embedded within everything which could not be detected before.

Delve into quantum theory to understand consciousness is primary in the universe and matter secondary. Be aware though, there are two camps, one which is materialist oriented and denies this, the other which is more spiritual/consciousness oriented which finds quantum proves the universe is really an informational field of possibilities, as consciousness, which self-creates everything we experience through the interaction of observance, that the matter we stand upon is more of a great thought than anything else. If you feel more comfortable with the quantum camp which denies consciousness is primary, you could ever so easily branch off in that direction to remain a steadfast materialist, but if you keep your mind open to both sides of the equation, you will learn something wonderfully valuable to your future, if you will but allow yourself to see it.

This isn't too bad a place to start a search on the subject: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness

Perhaps being a materialist is what you want, if so, be that. It is the only thing you can do anyway, at least, if true, for the time being. From the big picture I don't think it is all too important the kind of people we want to be, we experience and we learn from what ever we do as human beings, in time. Just living is far more important than being right or wrong, but being kind about it is also important.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

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Old 04-03-2016, 03:24 AM #6630
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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...science is... not advanced enough yet to detect anything beyond the matter world
Science cannot (yet?) detect the supernatural. Yes. But I don't believe you can either.

It comes down to this: Does the supernatural manifest in the natural world? If not, it doesn't matter. At all. Its existence is indistinguishable from its non-existence. Russel's Teapot again.

If it does manifest in the natural world, we can investigate it - with science.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:30 AM #6631
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Do you really need proof to consider something possible? Have you considered science might not be far enough along yet?
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 04-03-2016 at 04:40 AM. Reason: Deleted the last sentence, wasn't needed.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:58 AM #6632
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon View Post
You say something unexplained doesn't matter
That is NOT what I said.

I said something that doesn't manifest in the material world (reality) doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Do you really need proof to consider something possible?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Have you considered science might not be far enough along yet?
Do you have a more reliable method of investigation?
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:53 AM #6633
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Science relies heavily on observation and observation depends on the ability to sense. While I'm pretty much on the science side of things, I do subscribe to the notion that there are 'detectors' that haven't yet been discovered or synthesized along with whatever 'entity' or 'phenomenon' I guess I'll call it that it's designed to detect. I'm also completely open that some of those detectors are inside us and other living things.

I forget which episode it was on Star Trek The Next Generation where Empaths were thought to be 'crazy' in the 20th century until they learned of its mechanisms or ability to test it I suppose. The original series had an episode specifically called "The Empath"



and The Next Generation had, of course, Deanna Troi.



But I agree that unless there is some way to test a claim or hypothesis, there really isn't a way to assess its veracity or against a competing claim or hypothesis.
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:39 PM #6634
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Razako, how would a world in which consciousness is inherent to the brain alone look different to us than a world in which a soul interacts with a brain?
I think the better question is how would a world look in which consciousness doesn't exist at all. If everything in the brain comes down to neurons and chemical reactions then my conscious experience isn't required.

I would say that a mechanical calculator is not conscious, a pile of billions of mechanical calculators is not conscious. I'd then move to the question, if billions of mechanical calculators were assembled to mimic a human brain, would this assembly experience consciousness like humans do?


Quote:
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Haven't you just described "Religion" ?
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:34 PM #6635
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you reject what can't yet be proved, you are isolating yourself to mainstream ignorance, progress does not usually come from the core, but from the fringes. In other worlds, individuals who have enough vision to see beyond what has been proved.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:42 PM #6636
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Consciousness is a scale, not an absolute.

For example, a bacterium is "aware" of a proximal nutrient or threat source, and, exhibits appropriate positive or negative taxis.

The DEGREE of awareness simply ramps up, but even many insects still have very narrow ranges of awareness and response. If the stimuli is outside of their range, they don't perceive it.

This is why a praying mantis can trigger an escape flight if it attacks a grasshopper head on, but if it attacks from behind, you might see a mantis happily munching on the back of the grasshopper, while the front of the grass hopper is still happily munching on a leaf, etc.

Some critters evolve the ability to "perceive" events as potential events, and plan accordingly.

Planning an ambush at a waterhole means understanding that the PREY will come to drink...in the future, and, that going there, hiding, and waiting for that to happen, would be a way to take advantage of that understanding.

Monkeys even come up with strategies for raids using diversions, stronger individuals protecting more vulnerable members, using high ground to their advantage, etc.

Some animals can't tell a reflection in a mirror is actually them, and some can tell instantly...a self awareness comes later in the process. An autistic child for example might not be aware of themselves, physically, or of the feelings of others, and so forth.

Its all a sliding scale of awareness of surroundings, and, ability to respond.

Appreciation of the surroundings, and/or other's response to it, is also on a sliding scale.

Play behavior, etc, is a manifestation of this.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:47 PM #6637
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Although all true, that doesn't negate consciousness could also be playing through individuals (life from small to larger scale) to what ever extent it can, according to how far they have evolved to accept it.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-03-2016, 04:02 PM #6638
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Although all true, that doesn't negate consciousness could also be playing through individuals (life from small to larger scale) to what ever extent it can, according to how far they have evolved to accept it.

Reminds me of this weird youtube interview I watched on quantum consciousness. Basically the guy assumes that once you have the required level of computational complexity, you'll have some kind of consciousness latch to the structure. Don't know if I believe it, but it's definitely interesting to think about this stuff.
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:08 PM #6639
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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If you reject what can't yet be proved, you are isolating yourself to mainstream ignorance, progress does not usually come from the core, but from the fringes. In other worlds, individuals who have enough vision to see beyond what has been proved.
Mainstream ignorance is more full of unproved ideas, hence it BEING ignorance.

IE: The proven ideas are not ignorance, hence the proven part. The unproven are more likley to be wrong, hence the lack of proof.


I do agree that new knowledge is hatched from new ideas, albeit, if supported by evidence at least, they may well be incorporated into our body of knowledge.

There is a well known tendency in science for new ideas to be rejected as nonsense, then eventually accepted as evidence becomes overwhelming, and, finally, to be common knowledge. If you look at the history though, almost 100% of the rejected ideas stay rejected...and its the teeny percentage of initially rejected ideas that PROVE to be correct, later.

The difference between science and folklore, woo, etc, is that evidence is what drives the acceptance.

Science adjusts as new ideas come forth. So, if an idea starts to seem more plausible as more and more of an argument can be made for it...it may well become an accepted idea.

If an idea can predict other ideas, and if something that can show the idea is wrong cannot be found...it has plausibility.

So, for example, Einstein cam up with this crazy theory about relativity and spacetime.

It was extremely radical...and, of course, it was rejected by many mainstream scientists of the time. It was considered quite promising by some of them though.

Einstein made some predictions based on the new theory though, and, they were quite specific.

The last prediction he made (The others were all proved to be correct), was the EXACT amount of bending light from a distant star would experience due to the warping of spacetime by a massive body.

It took years for an eclipse to occur where there was no war (WWI for example), and where it could be observed and measured. When it was, it proved the last prediction...and cemented the theory as correct.

So, this would be part of your mainstream ignorance science is limited to?




The BURDEN of proof doesn't have to be absolute to make people at least consider the POSSIBILITY that a theory or idea might have merit.

Some people can look at deeply flawed and/or misinterpreted data, and draw conclusions that fit their confirmation biases. They then accuse others that still disagree as "seeing the evidence but rejecting it".


The whole thing of course boils down to who was right about the quality of the data.

Just as some scientists rejected Relativity, initially, because they questioned the data...humans DO have confirmation biases. The difference, for science, as a whole, is that SUFFIENT evidence can sway their opinion.

What is "sufficient" can vary of course, hence disagreements.


The key IS the quality of the evidence, and, how robust it is.


When the evidence can be ambiguous, it is 100% fair to argue interpretations of it.

Sometimes scientists argue, and, in organizations, etc, might vote a majority opinion. They might be found to be wrong, later...but, and this is key in science....that this can HAPPEN is part of how science, as a whole, adjusts to new knowledge.

The idea of a cosmic consciousness is an idea that has no real supporting data. Proponents of it argue that the data has simply not been found yet.

Like Relativity, it was just an idea too, but the difference was that there were ways to see if it made sense.

Cosmic consciousness has no supporting data, or equations, or other means of showing it anymore valid than consciousness of a rock or even a cosmic unicorn.

Yes, there are things out there that puport to support it, but examination of these things shows them as completely uncompelling without a severe confirmation bias.

Those WITH a severe confirmation bias, of course, do find them compelling.


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Old 04-03-2016, 05:14 PM #6640
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Historically, those with the intelligence to have insights beyond accepted and "proven" science are the ones who advance it, this is also why the mainstream will initially resist their theories, sometimes with a great fever of denial. If you stick to what is considered proven and reject just about all else, you become a dinosaur.

I've noticed if we can open our eyes enough and step out of the core of accepted science, to keep an open mind to the possibilities without rejecting them out of hand, any one of us can find the individuals who are truly advancing our understanding by working at the fringes. Unfortunately, much of the time these individuals are invisible to those who have become the masters of core knowledge, so in time, the masters of the past fall behind and a new boy on the block then takes their position. The cycle continues and then a new generation comes along to propel advancement further by pushing the edges more, then a whole new cycle of denial and acceptance.

When I think about who is pushing the envelope in regard to consciousness right now, I think of Stuart Hamerhof.

Teej: Between other activities at home, I was writing this and posted it when you were doing your own response too. I have trouble taking such big bytes, it seems you like shot guns when I have a old single shot rifle, not that we are at war, just too much for my slow clocked serial line to take in.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 04-03-2016 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Message to Teej.
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