Old 04-02-2016, 12:00 AM #6609
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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OK, so, to be alive, and have a soul, something has to be self aware?

OK, an orangutan can see itself in a mirror, and, if you walk behind it, it sees you in the mirror, and understands that you are not in the mirror, but, behind, because its aware that the mirror is a reflection.

A raven can see milk bottles, and goes and gets a stick to poke a hole in the foil cap, to get the milk out.

Did they inherit knowledge of what a mirror or milk bottle were?

Ok those examples demonstrate the ability to think. I've gotta see a video of the ravens and milk bottles(sounds pretty cool). However, is the ability to think the same as the ability to think about why? Does the raven wonder why the milk bottles are out there? Does the Orangutan wonder what we're thinking about?

A computer can think about a problem and come up with potential solutions. What a computer cannot do is think about the issue outside of a problem->solution basis. If you had a video of chimps in the wild painting on rocks with mud or something non-related to survival that would be interesting.

I guess the core issue here is the origin of consciousness. Is there a certain computing power breakpoint where you get self-awareness? If they ever develop a truly self-aware computer in the future, and the computer is capable of appreciating the nuances of poetry I suppose that would deal quite a blow to religious viewpoints. I'm not holding my breath though.


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Old 04-02-2016, 12:14 AM #6610
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 04-02-2016, 12:21 AM #6611
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Razako View Post
Ok those examples demonstrate the ability to think. I've gotta see a video of the ravens and milk bottles(sounds pretty cool). However, is the ability to think the same as the ability to think about why? Does the raven wonder why the milk bottles are out there? Does the Orangutan wonder what we're thinking about?

A computer can think about a problem and come up with potential solutions. What a computer cannot do is think about the issue outside of a problem->solution basis. If you had a video of chimps in the wild painting on rocks with mud or something non-related to survival that would be interesting.

I guess the core issue here is the origin of consciousness. Is there a certain computing power breakpoint where you get self-awareness? If they ever develop a truly self-aware computer in the future, and the computer is capable of appreciating the nuances of poetry I suppose that would deal quite a blow to religious viewpoints. I'm not holding my breath though.

Well, asking "why?" is sure a step in sentience, albeit, well, its hard for a human to know if a monkey wonders why it exists.

Most humans don't really wonder about this. They are interested, sure, but typically, only if it comes up.

If you are busy trying to survive, finding food/avoiding being food, etc...most people, historically, tend not to get too introspective.

If simply TOLD "this is why you exist", most simply say "ok", and continue on with their lives.

In different cultures, they are told different things, but, tend to believe whatever they were told.

When the first medicine man told them they had to do rituals, run by him, to communicate with supernatural forces they would otherwise be unaware of...they believed it.

Its been the same, but with different medicine men and then organized groups of medicine men.


Perhaps we can tell monkeys what to believe too.

Some who study monkeys think that the ritual rock dances before raids are a form of religious rite. If so, there was probably a medicine monkey.

Studies indicate that a monkey looking for the right rock to do a task might actually be hoping to find such a rock...and, they seem to try to repeat what worked before.

Birds do this too, and rats.


So if bobbing a bird's head was followed by finding a stick, or if banging a rock on a hollow log was followed by finding the right rock, etc...they tend to do it because it "worked the last time".

Patterns are comforting...IE: IF I wear this shirt and sit in this chair my team will win! (But if Fred comes over, don't let him in, because the last time Fred came over the other team won...)




The theory is that the monkeys might have won a raid after leaving a rock in a tree, and decided to do that the next time too "Because it worked last time".

This could be the origin of religion....and why different cultures all have their own idea of "what worked last time".





Its also possible that there's no need to wonder if there's a purpose to our existence. Perhaps we actually know we exist to love our families and friends and to be a force for good in the world, etc.

For example, we know that spacetime spontaneously creates photons, electrons and positrons...as a property of spacetime. Everything else in the known universe can then follow...so, everything exists BECAUSE its a property of spacetime TO exist.

If you need there to be a purpose to exist, you'd need to find your own...and, you can pick anything you like....for you.

IE: The REASON there's stuff is different from there being a purpose for stuff.



There are rocks because of geological events. The PURPOSE of a particular rock could be to be a jewel in a watch, or a crown, or a patio...or to be worshiped by a monkey.


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Old 04-02-2016, 12:47 AM #6612
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Razako View Post
I guess the core issue here is the origin of consciousness. Is there a certain computing power breakpoint where you get self-awareness? If they ever develop a truly self-aware computer in the future, and the computer is capable of appreciating the nuances of poetry I suppose that would deal quite a blow to religious viewpoints. I'm not holding my breath though.

I've thought of that before, if a truly conscious/self aware computer, that can really think and ask itself "why am I me" is ever created, then that certainly would point to consciousness and self awareness just being a factor of higher mental power and nothing more.


Doubt it will ever happen though, and sure as heck would feel bad for whoever gets to be that computer. lol



If no such computer can ever be made, then something more complex must be going on, because surely we will eventually get to a point were a computer can be more powerful than the human brain on all levels.
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:56 AM #6613
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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http://www.express.co.uk/news/scienc...NG-after-death

Some people experience nothing, I believe the larger percentage either experiences nothing, or just can't remember if there is. Why? No clue, NDE experiences can't be proved real most of the time and can never be proved to some who simply won't accept the evidence. I'm not sure if a proof for such can really be made anyway, it is an experience, how can you prove an experience real to someone else unless they too are part of it, what is real, material reality? If that is a definition of something real, then nothing we experience as conscious beings is real, all made of dream stuff.

...However, there are people who have had medical emergencies, heart stopping or no brainwave activity measured who have met with others in the "afterlife" who they were sure were alive, later finding out they had indeed died. That too can be coincidence, but others have met more than one in the afterlife they thought were alive, to find they too were also dead. Again, that could be coincidence. A blind from birth person also claims to have had vision and saw themselves laying on the operating table, the ability to see scared them a bit, as it was a completely new thing to them. That too, is no proof, they could be lying. I can give a hundred examples of things people report which are not proof, over and over again... so, if you want to discount and disbelieve consciousness can survive outside the brain we easily can for several reasons; a delusional person, a liar, hallucinations or just a dream, but believing such isn't proof to the contrary either. Belief is a poor substitute to real knowledge, lots of people have denied NDE's but as far as I know, all of those who deny such as being possible have changed their position when they have had one themselves. I am sure exceptions can be found because some "NDE's" are certainly hallucinations, that can happen too, but others, I am confident have something to them and not so easily denied, if fully investigated without disbelief getting in the way.

In my opinion NDE reports have nothing to do with religion with exception of those who have religious experiences. Those reports I avoid, I don't generally like to read religious NDE reports. To me, religions are a man made concept and as organizations are no closer to "God" than anything else. When I do (rarely though) read or watch religious NDE reports I look for what is common to the non-religious reports. To share my thoughts in regard to what is happening with those, I tend to think individuals who have had that kind of belief system will sometimes, not always, have a religious figure meet them on the "other side". I believe this is because without something coming to them which represents a reality akin to their strong belief systems, they can't be helped during the crossing over. And or, perhaps we each meet with others of our own ilk, or as New Ager's often say; are of the same vibratory level of consciousness.

My thoughts are we are spiritual beings having a human experience, but being spiritual and being religious can be two completely separate things. To me religions can give deep meaning and hope and the organizations can be very helpful for many people, but that they are merely a coat of paint on top of an endless reality which goes on forever for sentient beings. Nothing said in this post is even close to proof, that isn't something which is even remotely possible, this is just text, of course. I would never try to prove any of this, but I would hope a door might be cracked open just a tiny fraction of an electrons width, for some. Others who are of like mind might actually enjoy the sharing, but others of opposite mind won't at all
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:59 AM #6614
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ears and Eggs View Post
I've thought of that before, if a truly conscious/self aware computer, that can really think and ask itself "why am I me" is ever created, then that certainly would point to consciousness and self awareness just being a factor of higher mental power and nothing more.


Doubt it will ever happen though, and sure as heck would feel bad for whoever gets to be that computer. lol



If no such computer can ever be made, then something more complex must be going on, because surely we will eventually get to a point were a computer can be more powerful than the human brain on all levels.


There is a LOT of speculation as to how much computing power...but, myself, I feel that that power ITSELF is not going to provide an answer.

The main reason I feel that way is that our thought processes evolved...due to shaping forces such as climate changes such as ice ages, migration, and social development.

A computer program we write is, well, what we write.


We are not even only what we think...but what the bacteria in our gut is telling us, what our hormones and endocrine is telling us, etc.

WE like poetry and music because they have repeating patterns. We are hard wired to look for and love patterns.

We might be raised to appreciate a clever turn of phrase...but, really, it could simply be a less clear way of expression.


WE are the ones saying what this sentience should look like, to satisfy our own reflective criteria.

Is "Art" really "better" than a multi-wavelength measurement of a scene?

WE see it as pleasing to the eye...but, is that important, to a computer?


We are trying to make it human, in our own image....and, well, humans have a thing for that it seems.

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Old 04-02-2016, 04:05 AM #6615
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
There is a LOT of speculation as to how much computing power...but, myself, I feel that that power ITSELF is not going to provide an answer.

The main reason I feel that way is that our thought processes evolved...due to shaping forces such as climate changes such as ice ages, migration, and social development.

A computer program we write is, well, what we write.


We are not even only what we think...but what the bacteria in our gut is telling us, what our hormones and endocrine is telling us, etc.

WE like poetry and music because they have repeating patterns. We are hard wired to look for and love patterns.

We might be raised to appreciate a clever turn of phrase...but, really, it could simply be a less clear way of expression.


WE are the ones saying what this sentience should look like, to satisfy our own reflective criteria.

Is "Art" really "better" than a multi-wavelength measurement of a scene?

WE see it as pleasing to the eye...but, is that important, to a computer?


We are trying to make it human, in our own image....and, well, humans have a thing for that it seems.

From a purely evolution driven perspective it seems like fine arts would be a waste of time. Why paint something or sculpt when your time could be better spent hunting, building something or mating? The same applies to philosophy. Why the drive to search for 'answers' when those answers are irrelevant to survival and reproduction?

This thread needs a poll btw. # of people who have actually had their beliefs changed in any way by this religion discussion lol.

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Old 04-02-2016, 01:30 PM #6616
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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From a purely evolution driven perspective it seems like fine arts would be a waste of time. Why paint something or sculpt when your time could be better spent hunting, building something or mating? The same applies to philosophy. Why the drive to search for 'answers' when those answers are irrelevant to survival and reproduction?

This thread needs a poll btw. # of people who have actually had their beliefs changed in any way by this religion discussion lol.

Because the opposite of what you say is true.

Finding patterns is part of what made us able to recognize resources and understand how the world works. We can generalize easily, something a computer can't do well at all.

When we find a pattern, it makes us happy, IE: Our risk reward wiring is biased towards doing things that reward us.

As a species, this adaptation made us able to survive periods of change that killed off our competition. (We essentially are better able to predict what will happen, and take advantage of it/avoid danger)

So, a side affect of this is that we make things with patterns that please us, simply because they please us. Our social wiring makes us also want to please others, and have others appreciate the results of our work.

We MAY be the only species that considers some patterns to be beautiful, but, some aspects ARE shown to be universal for species with social behavior.

Symmetry for example, is a universal aesthetic property that holds across species lines.

Its even seen in mate selection.


It is selected for as it is often a way to judge the genetic fitness of a specimen. Even some insects look at competing suitors and select the one that is most symmetrical, etc.


When computer programs (ironically) are used to composite faces, viewers (human) judge the MOST averaged, and therefore most symmetrical faces, as most beautiful.

Golden Ratios, and other aspects of symmetry, as well as musical notes and beats, rhythms, etc, all resonate with that love of patterns and symmetry, etc.

Babies DELIGHT in knowing what might happen next (Peek a Boo! or Throw the food on the floor from the high chair, and, mommy picks it up!), because seeing that pattern is so delightful to them.

Music is discordant when you DON'T agree that the next note 'belonged"...it can be jarring to some people, etc. But we love it when we feel that the notes, etc, happen where they "should".

Art is the same way...there are well established ratios and relationships between elements in art, and well established ways colors "Belong together", such that we have color wheels, etc.

WHY those colors or notes or elements in a picture "belong this way and not that way"....is simply a function of what we were raised to find pleasing.



Emotions came well before thoughts. A feeling wells up, and then WE think about it, sometimes, and act accordingly. A critter that has no "thoughts" still has an emotional response...and can attack in rage, or cower in fear, or go into must, etc.

Why does food taste "good" or "bad"? If its nutritious, why involve the pleasure centers of the brain to eat? Because that's how our cellular ancestors evolved to encourage consumption of higher energy/nutrition sources....a cell is a stomach with a guidance system

Why does it "feel good" to have $ex? Why do you feel down if the weather is bad, and want to go to bed if depressed, or even get depressed? Why do you "feel good" if you run/accomplish something/get a compliment? Because you are hard wired to be rewarded for actions that, overall, were beneficial under various circumstances.




Monkeys apparently also think about their feelings as well. Social interactions between members of a group are extremely complicated. They even feign interests/disinterests, pretend to have found or not found something, pretend to like or not like other members, of fruit, etc, to trick other members.

IE: They know they found a ripe fruit tree, they know they want to bang that hot chimp, but, may act as though they don't...because they ALSO know how the OTHER chimps will react to ITS feelings...and kiss up/play indifferent, build alliances, etc.


No one or thing is doing math to see if a ratio is right, etc. We are hard wired to do certain things...but, the specifics of those things are individual...and, we essentially "feel" that something is beautiful or not, or how beautiful, etc.

We in turn want the computer to be able to tell if something is beautiful too, because we want it to be like us (IE: Created in our image).


And, again, the thread is not to change people's minds...its to express how you feel.


Those who feel that thoughts that disagree with theirs are an "attack", want the thread closed, to stop "the attack".

Those who can read thoughts in conflict with their own w/o feeling threatened, like the thread.


Those who feel attacked, but, who, like soldiers who march into battle, facing the danger to try to accomplish something good, wade into the thread, TRYING to change people's minds....mean well, and are facing the perceived attack bravely, but, who pray for peace to be achieved so they can go home.

Only the religious are actually trying to change reader's minds (Save them, etc). Everyone else is simply expressing how they feel, and, responding to attempts to change their mind with counter arguments, by explaining why the countered arguments are flawed, etc.

This is more to defend their position than to change other's minds.

This applies to all of us engaging in interaction here...not just the atheists or spiritualists or alien abduction of bigfootists, or Catholics, etc.




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Old 04-02-2016, 02:02 PM #6617
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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What is it like to be dead? Patient who ?died? says there is NOTHING after death | Science | News | Daily Express

Some people experience nothing, I believe the larger percentage either experiences nothing, or just can't remember if there is. Why? No clue, NDE experiences can't be proved real most of the time and can never be proved to some who simply won't accept the evidence. I'm not sure if a proof for such can really be made anyway, it is an experience, how can you prove an experience real to someone else unless they too are part of it, what is real, material reality? If that is a definition of something real, then nothing we experience as conscious beings is real, all made of dream stuff.

...However, there are people who have had medical emergencies, heart stopping or no brainwave activity measured who have met with others in the "afterlife" who they were sure were alive, later finding out they had indeed died. That too can be coincidence, but others have met more than one in the afterlife they thought were alive, to find they too were also dead. Again, that could be coincidence. A blind from birth person also claims to have had vision and saw themselves laying on the operating table, the ability to see scared them a bit, as it was a completely new thing to them. That too, is no proof, they could be lying. I can give a hundred examples of things people report which are not proof, over and over again... so, if you want to discount and disbelieve consciousness can survive outside the brain we easily can for several reasons; a delusional person, a liar, hallucinations or just a dream, but believing such isn't proof to the contrary either. Belief is a poor substitute to real knowledge, lots of people have denied NDE's but as far as I know, all of those who deny such as being possible have changed their position when they have had one themselves. I am sure exceptions can be found because some "NDE's" are certainly hallucinations, that can happen too, but others, I am confident have something to them and not so easily denied, if fully investigated without disbelief getting in the way.

In my opinion NDE reports have nothing to do with religion with exception of those who have religious experiences. Those reports I avoid, I don't generally like to read religious NDE reports. To me, religions are a man made concept and as organizations are no closer to "God" than anything else. When I do (rarely though) read or watch religious NDE reports I look for what is common to the non-religious reports. To share my thoughts in regard to what is happening with those, I tend to think individuals who have had that kind of belief system will sometimes, not always, have a religious figure meet them on the "other side". I believe this is because without something coming to them which represents a reality akin to their strong belief systems, they can't be helped during the crossing over. And or, perhaps we each meet with others of our own ilk, or as New Ager's often say; are of the same vibratory level of consciousness.

My thoughts are we are spiritual beings having a human experience, but being spiritual and being religious can be two completely separate things. To me religions can give deep meaning and hope and the organizations can be very helpful for many people, but that they are merely a coat of paint on top of an endless reality which goes on forever for sentient beings. Nothing said in this post is even close to proof, that isn't something which is even remotely possible, this is just text, of course. I would never try to prove any of this, but I would hope a door might be cracked open just a tiny fraction of an electrons width, for some. Others who are of like mind might actually enjoy the sharing, but others of opposite mind won't at all


By filtering out the NDE you like, from the one's you don't, w/o realizing that the filter you applied is a confirmation bias, is obscuring the real result.

Simply apply the same filter to all the NDE reports, and DON'T assume the religious ones are different somehow...and you eliminate all of them.





IE: What logic tells us that the religious NDE experiences are false, but the non-religious ones are true?

Is it simply that religion makes no sense, and is a mad-made construct?

Ok, that's a reasonable conclusion, but, in this context, if a person is raised to believe that if he dies he will experience death in the following fashion, why WOULDN'T he then experience it in the fashion he expected to?

If its all in their head anyway...it should not matter if they hallucinate being visited by angels or aardvarks, or a great pumpkin/cosmic presence connecting all life, or a giant crystal pyramid, its still all imagined.

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Old 04-02-2016, 03:03 PM #6618
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
By filtering out the NDE you like, from the one's you don't, w/o realizing that the filter you applied is a confirmation bias, is obscuring the real result.
I think the experience can happen, does happen, that there is an afterlife because the physics of the universe support it. I believe there is also a central point of consciousness behind and within everything, call it what you want. I just don't like reports which are religious very much, not denominational ones, God isn't denominational I guarantee you that. I used to seek all of the reports out, read through all of them and found that they all had core components which are the important parts, whether they see Buddha or Jesus means nothing to me, it's the core components which are the same across all cultures which say more to me.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-02-2016, 03:25 PM #6619
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Death

Death a construct. Many of us think we know what it means, but, really, it tends to simply mean what we think it SHOULD MEAN.

From a biological standpoint, we tend to consider a critter or plant, etc, to be dead, when it stops functioning.

The complications arise when the permanence of that state is considered, as it is often possible to jumpstart a dead critter, etc...and, its functional again.

A person for example used to "be dead" if their heart stopped beating. That was measurable in that you can put your ear on their chest, and listen for beating.

It wasn't foolproof, but, it was a consensus standard for millenia.

When it became common knowledge as to how to get a heart to beat again, CPR, paddles, etc, that wasn't dead anymore, really.

Most of us essentially assume that dead = NOT able to come back and function again.

The Princess Bride version of death, IE: Mostly dead vs all dead, etc...seems to actually be the most accurate way of looking at it.


As we are pretty much a simple conglomeration of interrelated chemical and electrical reactions...some of these stop working sooner, and, others, waaay later.


You can smash a frog with a hammer, and completely destroy all but one leg, apply a current to a leg muscle, and, that part still works...and the muscle contracts, even though there's no longer anything else of the frog telling it to.

All the muscle needs to 'work" is an electrical signal...and if sent by a frog brain, or a transformer, it doesn't matter.

If the frog is pithed, so just the parts of its brain that makes it breath and its heart beat, etc, are all that work...the remaining brain structure is still working, and sending current to contract the heart and diaphragm, etc...even though the parts that sense flies and want to boff other frogs are mush.


So, its like a car. If the battery "dies", its "dead", unless we jumpstart it or replace the battery.



Its always a question of DEGREE.

HOW dead = "dead"?

The answer, I think, is that there is a point of diminishing return...but, given the right perspective...it might be possible for the biological "you" to continue after your "death".

Essentially, your genes are the biological you. When you breed, your genes are passed on...and, therefore, part of YOU is passed on.

The same for your progeny and their progeny, etc...you are diluted, but there.

If the line ends, well, so do you.

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Old 04-02-2016, 03:36 PM #6620
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I think the experience can happen, does happen, that there is an afterlife because the physics of the universe support it. I believe there is also a central point of consciousness behind and within everything, call it what you want. I just don't like reports which are religious very much, not denominational ones, God isn't denominational I guarantee you that. I used to seek all of the reports out, read through all of them and found that they all had core components which are the important parts, whether they see Buddha or Jesus means nothing to me, it's the core components which are the same across all cultures which say more to me.

The physics of the universe?

Are those different from, say, physics?




Again, if people's descriptions of life after death are to be considered MORE THAN their imagination/failing brain symptoms....why discount some and accept others?

Wouldn't the experiences be the same, if truly something that really happens, universally?


Why would a Baptist see something different than a Buddhist?


WHY apply that filter because YOU feel it should be non-denominational?

How do you KNOW that the religious guy DIDN'T experience what he reported he experienced?

ALL NDE "experiences" are REPORTED experiences. We are taking ALL of their words for it.


Why say the ones who report a version we feel is not in line with our world view, are wrong, but the OTHERS are right?


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Old 04-02-2016, 03:59 PM #6621
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yes, smarty, I actually phrased it that way but didn't realize the implication you pointed out at the time. Of course our universe appears to have the same physics everywhere you go, that's the assumption from every indication we've been able to gather so far.

When it comes to making sense of NDE's many decide or choose what they want to call valid or invalid, that is what I'm trying to avoid by taking into consideration the core accounts and not the portion of the report which are obviously belief system biased. Because so many individuals have religiously oriented experiences, yet meeting with completely different religious figures, I assume those are caused by the bias of the experiencer, they clearly aren't core experiences when you compare various reports, many are very personal and oriented to how they think, which would be expected. It takes study of many different religious NDE's to see what generally shines through as core aspects. That is what interests me, not the dissimilarities.

What does the dying brain do, can it create such experiences? Well, study Pam Reynolds and see what you think of that. However, nothing I can point to will take away the doubt of a doubter, so pointing at this or that proves nothing at all.

If you want to look into this deeper, here's a good web site:

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

This page addresses religious NDE's: Near-Death Experiences and Religion

Reading the NDE's at the link right above this line of text, you will see it very well may be possible we each join with our own group of souls which are consistent with our belief systems, that there is not only a house for each of us in the afterlife, but a community too. I still prefer study of non-religious NDE's as I think they are less tainted by belief.

Quote:
Near-Death Experiences and Hinduism

In 1986, researchers Satwant Pasricha and Ian Stevenson, documented 16 cases of Indian near-death experiences in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research (77,1 15-135). Their small sample shows, Indian and American near-death experiences resemble each other in some respects but differ in others. Subjects of Indian near-death experiences do not report seeing their own physical body during the near-death experience, although American subjects usually do. Subjects of Indian near-death experiences frequently report being taken to the after-death realm by functionaries who then discover that a mistake has been made and send the person back, whereupon he or she revives. In contrast, American subjects, if they say anything at all about why they revived, mention meeting deceased family members who told them to go back, or say they came back because of ties of love and duty with living persons or say they were told it was not their time to die.

Many people have asked me (the webmaster) why experiences, such as Hindu near-death experiences, are so different than western ones. The reason is because everyone has their own cultural and religious background by which they see their experience. Jody Long, a near-death researcher with NDERF, put it best:

"One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their own pre-existing belief system." - Jody Long, NDERF.org

This important truth must be kept in the back of one's mind when reading these different reports.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-02-2016, 04:42 PM #6622
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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These are all assumptions and speculation, there is no proof of any of that.

Alan

Haven't you just described "Religion" ?
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Old 04-02-2016, 05:17 PM #6623
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I don't think proof can be given to anyone, sure we do speculate because we don't have a way to do more than that, but at the same time we can extrapolate to get an understanding of the pattern which lends credibility, or not, to hypothesis. Proof, no. I can't prove much and acceptable proof to one person isn't to another. Come to think of it, I'm not sure what I can prove, I can give evidence, perhaps, but so much in this world is so subjective.

If we are being isolated here to become what we each will become, to learn our lessons on our own with the help of one another, the Earth is a great place. It is so isolated from what I will call the spiritual realms it is very difficult to know much more than what is in front of our noses. However, NDE's appear to be something we can see through the key hole with, but not much of a view from such a small amount of information. For more, we have to pass through the door and cross completely over to the other side. I don't believe NDE experiencers ever cross completely over, if they did, they couldn't come back. I see them as only entering an intermediate room between realities, never further. So, in essence, even those experiences, if genuine, don't tell us much.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 04-02-2016, 05:24 PM #6624
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ped View Post
Haven't you just described "Religion" ?
Yes I suppose I have, at least most would see it that way.

There are many people though that have seen or experienced something that they think proves something to them, so to those people there is no doubt in their mind.

I know that when you see or experience something yourself it changes your thinking and what you believe. If someone has an NDE/OBE or been visited by a relative who just died etc. then you will never convince them that life doesn't continue after death. If someone sees a UFO up close that couldn't possibly be one of ours, they will then believe we are being visited by aliens. If someone sees a Bigfoot then you will never be able to tell them they don't exist. Almost everyone else will think these people were hallucinating or have an overactive imagination or something.

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