Old 01-28-2016, 11:43 PM #6545
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

LOL

Dark matter speaks to the issues.


I wonder if theists hear themselves in it, or if they just have some sort of filter that lets them say stuff that makes no sense/not filter OUT those they agree with?


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Old 01-29-2016, 12:10 AM #6546
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Does your interpretation come from the One who is Light or from the one who imitates light?

  • Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
  • This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
  • Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
  • Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
  • This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
or
  • Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

  • For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Aliens?
Rubbish, they are demonic spirits posing as extra-terrestrials.

Your version of Genesis?
Rubbish, you have fallen for The Lie too.

Unless we admit we are sinners and repent, no one will enter the kingdom and The Lie will consume you.

But know this...
  • For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Just rereading what you wrote, which I do out of respect, and, to try to more fully understand what you are saying...

..and, was wondering about the meaning of the phrases:

1) "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. " means, what?

God SEEMS extremely variable, and, has regretted actions, not foreseen events, changed his plans, asked for and/or committed genocide and infanticide, threatened retaliation if denied belief, and so forth. It seems he HAS a darkside.


2) "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man"

When their own mythology says they were slaves in Egypt, and Noah's family sold a son into slavery (Odd considering they were the only humans left...but, moving on...), and so forth.


3) "I speak that which I have seen with my Father" =

I speak that which I have seen with myself?

He's speaks of himself in the third person, and of himself as his father, really?


Even the biblical Jesus can't seem to just SAY he is god...if that's what he wants you to believe.

It just seems like telling the jews to believe in the jewish god (his dad) is just Judaism...so you can't be saved believing in his DAD, you can ONLY be saved if you believe in himself, as his dad, coming to earth, as his own son?

Very clunky.

OK, its ME, but, appearing as my own SON, got it?

OK

Why are you appearing as your own son, why not just appear as yourself?

Because I want to die for your sins.

Why can't you just die for our sins, as its yourself anyway?

Shut up, it sounded like a good idea last night, and I'm going with it.

Sigh, OK, so, you died for my sins, got it.


NO NO NO NO!!!!! My SON died for your sins.

Oh, yeah, right, I forgot, you, appearing as your son, died for my sins.

Close enough, just believe.











He doesn't really give a way to tell the real McCoy from the fakes...just that he's real, the others are fakes...and that if anyone ELSE says the same thing, THEY are the fakes?

LOL



I get Bronze Age illiterate farmers getting the single fabric wool pulled over their eyes...but a modern person should feel a bit sheepish.


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Old 01-29-2016, 07:51 AM #6547
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

devil's advocate time:

I don't think the bible indicates that jesus is god, I believed he was only the son of god when I was a christian.

why would he need to pray to god if he is god? for example when he drew in the sand before the whole "let ye who is without sin" thing?

or why would he say not my will but your will father? (Luke 22:42)

why would a dove descend from heaven and alight on jesus and a voice from heaven boom, "behold, this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased", if they are the same being?

finally, if he was god, then how did his death qualify as a sacrifice?

news flash, if you can raise yourself from the dead, you arent really dead, and the whole concept doesnt apply.

the only bible verse that seems like it could maybe indicate that jesus is god is the one where he says I and my father are one. however my mother's explanation of this using a concordance seemed to indicate that he only was referring to his purpose being one with god, because he goes on to say we all can be one with god, and surely he didnt mean we all are god as well.

it is funny to me that christians cant agree on this fundamental aspect, it's probably satan's fault, he's always up to something. a real prankster, that one.
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:16 AM #6548
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

Dark matter speaks to the issues.


I wonder if theists hear themselves in it, or if they just have some sort of filter that lets them say stuff that makes no sense/not filter OUT those they agree with?
Look who's talking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL



I get Bronze Age illiterate farmers getting the single fabric wool pulled over their eyes...but a modern person should feel a bit sheepish.

Getting the single fabric acrylic pulled over our eyes these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
devil's advocate time:

I don't think the bible indicates that jesus is god, I believed he was only the son of god when I was a christian.

why would he need to pray to god if he is god? for example when he drew in the sand before the whole "let ye who is without sin" thing?

or why would he say not my will but your will father? (Luke 22:42)

why would a dove descend from heaven and alight on jesus and a voice from heaven boom, "behold, this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased", if they are the same being?

finally, if he was god, then how did his death qualify as a sacrifice?

news flash, if you can raise yourself from the dead, you arent really dead, and the whole concept doesnt apply.

the only bible verse that seems like it could maybe indicate that jesus is god is the one where he says I and my father are one. however my mother's explanation of this using a concordance seemed to indicate that he only was referring to his purpose being one with god, because he goes on to say we all can be one with god, and surely he didnt mean we all are god as well.

it is funny to me that christians cant agree on this fundamental aspect, it's probably satan's fault, he's always up to something. a real prankster, that one.
Yes I agree with you. It is disturbing that this issue has to divide Christians. There are also those three places in Revelation that mention the seven spirits of God:

Revelation 3:1King James Version (KJV)

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5King James Version (KJV)

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6King James Version (KJV)

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


Now someone tell me they can explain that. Christians should just admit that we can't understand the nature of God and stop arguing this subject. Muslims early on decided they didn't understand much about God, so instead of trying to study God they decided to learn about God by studying his creations, this brought us much science and mathematics. Something went wrong though with that religion but for awhile they at least had the right idea about something.

There are many more subjects that over time have further divided Christians, among these are: baptism, is it ok to baptize infants or do they have to be old enough to decide for themselves? Is it ok to be dunked, poured, or sprinkled? Or do you have to be dunked? Do you have to be baptized "in the name of the father the son and the Holy Spirit"? Or in the name of Jesus Christ? Can any Christian baptize another or do they have to be in the priesthood? There is one Christian denomination that doesn't practice baptism at all and they have an explanation why it isn't necessary, I forget what that is but it sounded reasonable.

Can women be ordained?

What is the sabbath day? Saturday or Sunday?

Is it ok to eat pork? What about seafood that doesn't have both fins and scales?

What about taking communion? Does it matter if the bread is unleavened or not? Is wine, grape juice, water ok? Or does it have to be wine made from grapes?

And many more of what should be trivial issues but have divided Christians to the point of creating new denominations when they should have been able to compromise and reach an agreement. This has resulted in most of Christianity drifting far from what it originally was.

Alan
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:37 PM #6549
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Look who's talking.



Getting the single fabric acrylic pulled over our eyes these days.



Yes I agree with you. It is disturbing that this issue has to divide Christians. There are also those three places in Revelation that mention the seven spirits of God:

Revelation 3:1King James Version (KJV)

3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5King James Version (KJV)

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6King James Version (KJV)

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


Now someone tell me they can explain that. Christians should just admit that we can't understand the nature of God and stop arguing this subject. Muslims early on decided they didn't understand much about God, so instead of trying to study God they decided to learn about God by studying his creations, this brought us much science and mathematics. Something went wrong though with that religion but for awhile they at least had the right idea about something.

There are many more subjects that over time have further divided Christians, among these are: baptism, is it ok to baptize infants or do they have to be old enough to decide for themselves? Is it ok to be dunked, poured, or sprinkled? Or do you have to be dunked? Do you have to be baptized "in the name of the father the son and the Holy Spirit"? Or in the name of Jesus Christ? Can any Christian baptize another or do they have to be in the priesthood? There is one Christian denomination that doesn't practice baptism at all and they have an explanation why it isn't necessary, I forget what that is but it sounded reasonable.

Can women be ordained?

What is the sabbath day? Saturday or Sunday?

Is it ok to eat pork? What about seafood that doesn't have both fins and scales?

What about taking communion? Does it matter if the bread is unleavened or not? Is wine, grape juice, water ok? Or does it have to be wine made from grapes?

And many more of what should be trivial issues but have divided Christians to the point of creating new denominations when they should have been able to compromise and reach an agreement. This has resulted in most of Christianity drifting far from what it originally was.

Alan


Alan - Very good points.

That was a lot of the same tree with different ornaments on it analogy I was making earlier.

As for the nature of Jesus, yeah, that's what they fought about at Nicaea...establishing these very issues.

The early church back then, going with what they had to work with, was torn over several issues that seem to still be unsettled despite their efforts to settle them.

A large part of the fight was over if Jesus was a man, and there were many who interpreted what they had to mean he WAS a man...

...or the son of god, and, if the son of god, COULD he really die...which then required deciding if he was somehow god, and his own son, and, his son could be both human AND god, to satisfy the religion being able to pray to him...

...or an incarnation of god appearing to the populace, etc.

Most of it centered upon whether the Son had been 'begotten' by the Father from his own being, and therefore having no beginning, or, created out of nothing, and therefore having a beginning.

They voted on this issue, and, the being his own father party won, and the "begotten by himself" party then banished the "created" party adherents, and ordered all documents supporting the other party's position to be burned.

The gospels, etc, that were left, therefore, were the one's supporting the side that one, as the other stuff was destroyed/decreed not relevant.

So, when you read the bibles, you see the results of these votes for example.

They did miss some mentions of things here and there, again, it was all on parchment scrolls, etc...and very hard to proof read/edit/search.

This is why some are confused when they read passages that seem to be in conflict with other passages...including "eye witness accounts" that say events took place differently or at different times or even at different places, etc.

If "true" due to divine inspiration, they they should agree. If merely the words of men, with no divine inspiration, they can disagree...just as eye witnesses to a crime can disagree.

The difference is that the eye witnesses to a crime might be wrong about what they saw, but are typically correct as to where the crime occurred, unless lying.


HAVING TO VOTE means that, even at that point, there was no divinely inspired "truth". It was, as always, men...and men who disagreed.


So, the result is that the CHURCH considers Jesus to be god, and, all appearances by god, say, in the old testament, were Jesus in preincarnate form.


Soooo....Jesus orders the murder of babies in the old testament, and follows the old laws...but makes mistakes, apologizes, and moves on, etc.

In the New Testament, he is perfect in every way...and only wants you to kill those who don't follow him...but while loving them.

Jesus 1.0 has a bad temper and can kill the first born of Egyptians, as long as PEOPLE mark the houses to skip. (He can't tell what house, but if we tell him what house, he can tell who's the first born male, and kill him...)

Jesus 2.0 is a loving foot washing humble guy who wanders the countryside healing the sick and doing party tricks....and asking his followers to forsake their families to fight with him.

Both dispense parables and homilies available to their respective time periods, stealing the stories, etc, wholesale, from earlier sources such as Babylonia and Sumeria, Hebrew folklore, etc.
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:58 PM #6550
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
.....

And many more of what should be trivial issues but have divided Christians to the point of creating new denominations when they should have been able to compromise and reach an agreement. This has resulted in most of Christianity drifting far from what it originally was.
Alan
I heard one church split over whether or not Adam had a belly button
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:11 PM #6551
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Original Sin:

Jesus (Preincarnate form) makes Adam dumb and naked, and, Immortal...and, the only member of his species. The other animals and plants, etc, for some reason, have more than one member each.

Adam is lonely, and wants a companion.

Jesus apparently did not know Adam would want a companion, was not JESUS enough?

Jesus shows him the other animals, and says he can have anyone he wants.

Adam is not OK with that.

Jesus makes a dumb naked, Immortal, wo-man to be Adam's companion.

Jesus tells them to be fruitful and multiply.....despite them being immortal, and, the eventual overcrowding issues that would lead to...)

Jesus then tells ADAM not to eat of the tree of knowledge, as if he does, he shall surely die.

(THERE IS NO MENTION OF EVE EVER BEING TOLD THIS)

Satan, who was kicked out/left heaven because he didn't want to worship anyone but Jesus...labeled as vain, and also as wanting to be god...

Possessed a serpent in the Garden of Eden, and convinced her that she should eat it. (The apple, not his serpent...)

As Eve (And Adam) were created in a special way that made them unable to tell right from wrong...Eve saw nothing wrong about eating the apple.

Apparently, it was a decent apple, and, large enough to not finish, so she brought the leftovers to Adam...who also saw nothing wrong, having been made that way.

The time delay on the apple's ability to tell them right from wrong than magically kicked in, and they suddenly realized they were naked.

Apparently, in those times, being naked was wrong.

They covered up, and Jesus saw they covered up, toyed with them like a cat with a mouse, then decreed that they were kicked out, had to work for a living and have painful births.

And, they will surely die too, in about a thousand years or so.

This faux pas is put upon all of their descendants too...which is why, children, men and woman have different numbers of ribs, and why it hurts to have babies for woman, and men have to work for a living.

In Jesus's mercy, woman do not have to work, and men don't have painful births.


A few thousand years later, Jesus decides that humans have suffered enough, and he will impregnate a virgin with himself, and be a zygote, and fetus and then born, all w/o damaging the precious holy (un holy?) hymen...

AND THEN, learn carpentry.

And THEN, start preaching that Jews needs to get back to the old ways, fundamental Orthodox Judaism.

So, he gets himself caught by the Romans for telling Jews to pay their taxes and healing the sick, and establishing himself through his ministry and works of good, miracles, etc as GOD COME TO EARTH...so that they consider him a criminal, and crucify him.

Despite crucified criminals having to remain on the crosses as they rot, as a sign to others to not be a criminal...

...some one took him down, and, put him in a tomb.

Later, it was empty.

So, Jesus tricked Adam and Eve into doing something wrong, by making them not able to tell the difference WITHOUT the apple....and then sending satan himself to do the dirty work of tricking them into doing it.

He then had himself crucified to forgive them for their sin.

Apparently, as woman still have painful births, AND work for a living, and men still have to work for a living, it did not work.


Now, some contend that despite the punishment not being lifted, everyone AFTER AD is not born with original sin.

Others insist that despite Jesus dying for 3 days or so, we are all STILL born with original sin.


Still others contend that If Jesus was in fact the incarnate jesus before that, then, if Jesus DID DIE for our sins, he would need to be DEAD.

That would mean that for those 3 days or so, there was no god.

It would also mean that after the 3 days or so, he'd have to resurrect himself.

If he COULD resurrect HIMSELF, he could not have actually been dead, even if just for 3 days or so.

If really god, he could not actually die...unless god is not immortal.

That would imply that Jesus was just a man puppet, some random carpenter flesh for show...or just a man...

...or...

...That nobody died.


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Old 01-29-2016, 02:25 PM #6552
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I heard one church split over whether or not Adam had a belly button
Yes this is true, it has been a long time controversy, the reason is that Adam and Eve were created by God and didn't have mothers, so in theory they shouldn't have had belly buttons. Just Google "Adam belly button" and you should find articles about this subject. Why anyone would care I can't understand, some of the things people can argue about never cease to amaze me. I suppose we could also argue over weather or not Adam was circumcised.

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Old 01-29-2016, 02:31 PM #6553
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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2) "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man"

When their own mythology says they were slaves in Egypt, and Noah's family sold a son into slavery (Odd considering they were the only humans left...but, moving on...), and so forth.
You got the story wrong I believe. It was Joseph, son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, who was a son of Shem, who was a son of Noah.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:44 PM #6554
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

In my view, if someone who believes there are no repercussions from doing someone wrong, if they can otherwise get away with it, and decide not to do so out of caring for others, they have greater morality than someone who does so from fear of trouble being caused for themselves, or how they might be judged by others (or God).

So, doing the right thing doesn't count so much in my book unless it is solely out of respect or love of others. An atheist who treats others well due to their own personal morality instead of a religious belief or fear of punishment from God has greater morality than those who restrain themselves for religious reasons, don't they?

This isn't so black and white as I just put it though, someone can also be religious with the same heightened sense of personal responsibility, they aren't mutually exclusive in that regard, of course, just that I would hold the individual who does the right thing just because it's the right thing in higher regard than someone who does so just to be right with God.

I hold atheists in high regard due to their rejection of the God taught in most, if not all religions, I can't believe in the limited reward and punishment God most religions teach, I think of God as more of a creative force in the universe which exists at the most base level of our reality, something which both makes all of creation one, yet gives us the freedom to be individuals at the same time. So I don't see our creator as an individual being as religions teach God to be, something much greater, deeper, broader and more finite at the same time. This is what I think all conscious beings rise from, for it to experience itself through them, in what ever forms rise out of the mist as individuals.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:52 PM #6555
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
You got the story wrong I believe. It was Joseph, son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, who was a son of Shem, who was a son of Noah.
The meat of the story is that Noah's son, Ham, saw him naked, and Ham's son was sold into slavery as punishment.

Ham saw dad's privies when Noah was passed out drunk. Caanan was Ham's son.

Caanan was the one sold into slavery, to his family (Shem and Japheth, his uncles...)

As that makes no sense, on any level, its safe to say that's not what went down.


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Old 01-29-2016, 03:29 PM #6556
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
The meat of the story is that Noah's son, Ham, saw him naked, and Ham's son was sold into slavery as punishment.

Ham saw dad's privies when Noah was passed out drunk. Caanan was Ham's son.

Caanan was the one sold into slavery, to his family (Shem and Japheth, his uncles...)

As that makes no sense, on any level, its safe to say that's not what went down.

Ahh you meant the Curse of Ham. Yeah, kinda sounds like an excuse to start a war against the Canaanites.
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:43 PM #6557
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You all keep looking at those stories as if they are more than just ancient propaganda, LOL.
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Old 01-29-2016, 07:03 PM #6558
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
In my view, if someone who believes there are no repercussions from doing someone wrong, if they can otherwise get away with it, and decide not to do so out of caring for others, they have greater morality than someone who does so from fear of trouble being caused for themselves, or how they might be judged by others (or God).

So, doing the right thing doesn't count so much in my book unless it is solely out of respect or love of others. An atheist who treats others well due to their own personal morality instead of a religious belief or fear of punishment from God has greater morality than those who restrain themselves for religious reasons, don't they?

This isn't so black and white as I just put it though, someone can also be religious with the same heightened sense of personal responsibility, they aren't mutually exclusive in that regard, of course, just that I would hold the individual who does the right thing just because it's the right thing in higher regard than someone who does so just to be right with God.

I hold atheists in high regard due to their rejection of the God taught in most, if not all religions, I can't believe in the limited reward and punishment God most religions teach,

--------

Woo Part

I think of God as more of a creative force in the universe which exists at the most base level of our reality, something which both makes all of creation one, yet gives us the freedom to be individuals at the same time. So I don't see our creator as an individual being as religions teach God to be, something much greater, deeper, broader and more finite at the same time. This is what I think all conscious beings rise from, for it to experience itself through them, in what ever forms rise out of the mist as individuals.

You are correct of course about morality.

The kid who KNOWS he can get away with stealing a cookie, but doesn't, because he knows it would be wrong...is more moral than the one who doesn't steal it because he DOESN'T know if he'll get caught or not.

Obviously, a person could be moral and do the right thing even if no one is watching, AND be a Christian or Muslim or Woo Worshiper, or Atheist, etc.

But on a philosophical basis, if they needed the religion TO keep them from doing bad things, deep down, they ARE bad. (And that's a sliding scale...a cookie thief is not always also a murderer, and so forth)


I'm hard pressed to follow the woo part though...?

I THINK you are saying that god is a force, and, creates...but is not a being or single entity?

Conscious beings arise due to evolution of the nervous system.

Matter and energy are created by spacetime...its experimentally confirmed.

There's no need for a woo force to also be present. The system simply does what it does.

If you want to refer to the overarching process as a force, that's fine. Praying to it, etc, is a bit woo though.

Essentially, the nervous systems of critters (and plants, bacteria, etc) became better and better able to sense and respond to the environment.

This is a big deal, and even getting to the point where a creature is self aware is far down the path.

Some birds, and some simians, dolphins, etc, for example, recognize that a mirror is showing THEM, and what's behind them...while other birds, other simians, dogs, cats, etc, just see another dog or bird, etc...not realizing its them.

So, if a chimp is facing a mirror, and you walk up behind it, it turns and knows you are there...and might take a break from making faces at itself for amusement, etc.

A human child becomes self aware after a while too, and gets it.

A crow might see itself, a parakeet sees another parakeet, etc.


So, that level of "consciousness" is a break point we can measure/understand.

The more primitive the system, the more emotional the processing is. Emotions came first, thought later. So, a critter feels fear or anger and, runs, or fights. Its not thinking about why...just reacting. Our GUT reaction is typically the same sort of response...we FEEL an emotion connected with what we saw/heard, etc.

Later critters can make PLANS, and LEARN MORE. Killer whales, dolphins, etc, invent new ways to hunt for example, and only one pod will use that technique, until they show another pod, who then learns it too, and so forth.

Prairie dogs bark at ultrasonic frequencies that convey enormous amounts of information in a fraction of a second...what sounds like a single staccato chirp to us, when examined on an oscilloscope, contains a huge number of waveforms and details.

These have been observed and confirmed to communicate things such as the ***, size and type of predator, their number if multiple, and its speed and approach direction....we we hear a short bark, they hear 3 young male coyotes, coming in fast from the west (Or what they call it in their wee heads...), and a second bark might indicate that one broke to the right to sweep in a flanking maneuver...etc. (That's a language)

Your dog knows you are sad and will come over to comfort you, and, will help other dogs it doesn't even know...but will help dogs it knows more (Much as a person will help friends and family more, etc). This is without thought per se...its pure empathy. Its doing the right thing simply because its a natural behavior for a social critter.

This same emotionally intelligent dog can't untangle his leash or see himself in a mirror, but could herd sheep like a champ...and, is already able to act morally. IE: It can empathize with another creature, recognize what help it needs (if obvious enough), and then HELP.


Once we are self aware...and can tell ourselves and our own actions from anothers'...we can then begin to interpret our own actions and feelings.

We can then start to project how we'd feel, onto what we assume others might feel.......and, eventually, also be able to imagine others having different feelings, and so forth.

No magic woo wand was needed to be waved...its just how things progress.

Things that tended to be social, such as elephants, wolves and humans, simply benefited from fewer misunderstandings...and from better cooperation.

Hierarchies were one way to streamline the process, as discussing something on merit is difficult if you are, say, a wolf. That way, the more experienced one/the one who seems good at surviving at least, makes the call, and the others follow.

So, in societies where getting along and cooperating better were rewarded by a higher survival rate...whatever facilitated that was continually optimized.





And

OF COURSE its all just ancient propaganda (Noah, etc)...but its like discussing Star Wars or whatever, and who did what when.

The people who don't realize the bibles are all just made up by people, well, for them, star wars is REAL.


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Old 01-29-2016, 07:21 PM #6559
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Yes this is true, it has been a long time controversy, the reason is that Adam and Eve were created by God and didn't have mothers, so in theory they shouldn't have had belly buttons. Just Google "Adam belly button" and you should find articles about this subject. Why anyone would care I can't understand, some of the things people can argue about never cease to amaze me. I suppose we could also argue over weather or not Adam was circumcised.

Alan
Obviously, they would not have belly buttons....yet their progeny do...yet Adam's rib shortage/Eve's excess, was passed down to subsequent generations, go figure.

Circumcision was added after Noah...they were big on covenants back then. That's how we got rainbows too!

I wonder what the circumcision conversation was like?

God: I want you to cut off the end of your penis as a covenant between us.

Abram: Wait, WHAT!? How about a secret ring or handshake?

God: No, really, penis skin is the ticket here.

Abram: Um, how about pierced ears or noses? I'll put a bone through my nose!

I'll stack brass rings on my neck so it gets really long!

A tattoo! Any thing you want, I'll get a tattoo!

God: Stop stalling and get me my dickskins.

Abram: How about I only cut off the slaves ends?

God: Nope, all your slaves, AND all your family, if its got a dick, I want its skin.

Abram: You're an odd deity, but OK.

God: That's better. Besides, less gunk under there, it stays cleaner, so your people will have fewer diseases down there....trust me, I'm omniscient.

Abram: Then why didn't you know about Adam and why are you regretting the flood, etc?

God: Omniscient means I know everything, but, I am GOD, and can do anything so, I'm OMNIPOTENT TOO!

That means I can know everything AND not know stuff at the same time!

Conversely, I can be all powerful and also lose. Its a supernatural thing, you wouldn't understand.

To paraphrase a guy who is not yet born, Its Good to be The God.

Abram: OW!



The nature of Jesus's DNA would be interesting too.

If he was god, he wouldn't need it per se...but, if Mary WAS his mom, she would have contributed half of his genome.

In the original documents, Jesus's male side went back to the high priests of Judaism, to satisfy the messianic requirements for a messiah.

When they changed their mind and made him a son of GOD, that work to establish the bloodline of his dad seemed a bit superfluous...so they erased as much of that as they could find.

So, he only had Mary's DNA, and would have been pretty messed up.

If he also had the messianic DNA he originally came with, he'd at least be human.

So, obviously, no DNA, as, he was not human.

And therefore a god, and, did not die.


Of course, we have some biological remains of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin, which the church considers to be a "Mirror of the Gospel"......and all we'd have to do is DNA testing on the blood stains, etc..........

.....except it was, of course, a fraud, and had a middle ages date when the church was busy trying to make "relics"....

...so no Jesus DNA....just even more evidence he didn't exist...and that the church works hard to pretend he did.







We could also argue about how many angels it would take to screw in a light bulb, etc...which sounds like a good start for a joke at least?


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Old 02-05-2016, 07:02 AM #6560
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I found this video interesting:



Much of the same essence here too, which I fully agree with: https://youtu.be/xsxqT4OpHoU (No, I'm not into remote viewing, the other stuff in the video).


Cheers!
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 02-05-2016 at 12:31 PM.
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