Old 01-27-2016, 04:09 AM #6529
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

yeah teej, satan is gonna be suffering in hell with them not running the place. that's god's job, he's the one who torments forever. get it right man


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Old 01-27-2016, 11:32 AM #6530
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Alan,

The eternal torture is supposed to be administered by the devil. Yes, he may be able to delegate to demons or whatever too.

Its supposed to be administered in hell.

Hell is therefore a torture factory run by Satan.

The church depicts Satan as trying to trick people so he gets their souls.

When he gets them, he then tortures them for all eternity.

Satan is supposed to fight god for possession of the world in the end time...with those aligned with evil fighting those aligned with good.

Does this not sound like what Christianity tells us about Hell and Satan?
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:52 PM #6531
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

no teej, satan knows it hurts god to turn people away from him because then god is forced to send them to hell, and remember, god is willing that none should perish. just uh, you know, not that willing or whatever. so satan is trying to get as much company for himself in hell and trying to hurt god by forcing him to follow through on his threat/promise of sending sinners to hell, because satan knows it really hurts god when he has to torture people for eternity. you think god likes doing that? no, he's a good guy remember. it tears him up inside even though he's the one who invented the situation and administrates it. have I cleared it up for you?
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:04 PM #6532
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
no teej, satan knows it hurts god to turn people away from him because then god is forced to send them to hell, and remember, god is willing that none should perish. just uh, you know, not that willing or whatever. so satan is trying to get as much company for himself in hell and trying to hurt god by forcing him to follow through on his threat/promise of sending sinners to hell, because satan knows it really hurts god when he has to torture people for eternity. you think god likes doing that? no, he's a good guy remember. it tears him up inside even though he's the one who invented the situation and administrates it. have I cleared it up for you?




This is the sort of thing I was taught in Sunday School. The devil tortures you in hell for all eternity.


I do know that some people interpret the bible, and say that's about right....if you don't accept jesus as your lord and saviour, you go to hell, and satan tortures you forever.

Others interpret it as you die now, and, go into limbo....a supernatural storage state...

..and, then, one day, you AND the devil are thrown into hell to be tortured forever, by GOD.

Others have other interpretations....including that the devil was not an angel, or that he was...but maybe another creature...and was cast out of heaven (but can still visit) because he would ONLY WORSHIP GOD, and would not worship man (Immortal dumb naked Adam) as commanded by god.



All of the interpretations are open to, um, interpretation. All the versions are espoused by those who studied the bibles and sources and came to different conclusions.


---------


It IS easy to see how there can be so MANY interpretations....the descriptions are all over the place.


Its a lot like the bible itself actually.

Some see the bible or heaven or hell as parable/illustration of the human condition, and not a real place or depiction of actual events.

Some see all of them as real and tangible.

Some see some parts as real, and others as concepts, etc.


Some read and interpret the bible, and say it says the earth is ~ 6,000 years old...because they added up everyone's ages, etc.

I read it and see where they got their numbers, and fudge factors, but, say, frankly, the bible doesn't say how old the earth or universe is, as written...its the interpretation of it that provides the new numbers.


I see the old testament god as a dithering old man with a bad temper. I mean, he apologizes for making mistakes, expresses regret, but also performs acts of genocide, etc. Sort of like an abusive spouse who beats you, and then says he's changed, and won't do it again, etc.

In the New Testament, the Church started to push perfection though...he had to have omniscience, omnipotence, pick up rocks too heavy to pick up, plan for everyone from before their conception, at the beginning of time...etc.

That's a lot of expectation on the poor guy. And now the Pope admits they went a bit overboard on the attributes, and, god is not able to do magic the way he was portrayed in the past, the big bang and evolution are correct, the earth is billions of years old, the earth is mostly round, the earth goes around the sun...etc.

He won't go so far as to say he's an atheist (the pope, not god...), he says god is needed to have a big bang, etc...but, it IS progress towards the knowledge the church had traditionally fought so hard to keep from us.

That takes some pressure off the church...having to insist on Bronze Age worldviews was costing them everywhere people valued knowledge/could get it w/o peer pressure constraints.

The Church grew in areas where suppression of science is still culturally OK, such as poor parts of Latin America, etc, and shrunk elsewhere.

This is analogous to the tobacco industry shifting sales emphasis to less educated areas of the world as educated areas slowed the use of tobacco products, and adding tech appeal to more educated areas, such as e-cigs, etc.


I think its a good move on the tobacco and supernatural industries part to move into demographics where they are less likely to face
resistance.


Its probably a long time from now to when god announces that he is now an atheist. I predict it never happens.

Its probably a much shorter time span before the last sentient being gives up supernatural beliefs though.


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Old 01-27-2016, 07:35 PM #6533
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Alan,

The eternal torture is supposed to be administered by the devil. Yes, he may be able to delegate to demons or whatever too.

No it isn't. That is not biblical. Shakenawake is much closer to having it right than you are, I know he doesn't believe any of this but at least I can tell he is a former Christian and has read the bible or at least parts of it, I don't see any evidence of that from you.

Its supposed to be administered in hell.

Hell is therefore a torture factory run by Satan.

I think it's probably nothing more than an incinerator for souls, and not run by Satan.

The church depicts Satan as trying to trick people so he gets their souls.

Satan can't take your soul unless you willingly give it to him or willingly choose to follow him.

When he gets them, he then tortures them for all eternity.

For those who choose to follow him I doubt this is true, how could he build an army to wage war? To Satan these souls are of course trophies and a slap in the face to God.

Satan is supposed to fight god for possession of the world in the end time...with those aligned with evil fighting those aligned with good.

Yes that's correct but there's more to it than that, the war in Heaven happened and Satan is locked up somewhere, only his spirit can come and go here on earth right now but he will be cast out onto the earth physically. There is another place called the abyss or the bottomless pit, some think this is hell but I think it's another place, the Angels/demons that followed Satan are mostly there I think. The people that chose to side with Satan in the war I think were given a second chance and each live a life here on earth where they again have a chance to choose sides.

Does this not sound like what Christianity tells us about Hell and Satan?

No not quite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post


That artwork is just someone's imagination of what hell May be like.

This is the sort of thing I was taught in Sunday School. The devil tortures you in hell for all eternity.

I wasn't taught that in Sunday school and it is not in the bible. That was just something made up to scare children.

I do know that some people interpret the bible, and say that's about right....if you don't accept jesus as your lord and saviour, you go to hell, and satan tortures you forever.

People who don't read and interpret the bible.

Others interpret it as you die now, and, go into limbo....a supernatural storage state...

Yes soul sleep for over a thousand years until judgment day, not likely I think.

..and, then, one day, you AND the devil are thrown into hell to be tortured forever, by GOD.

Others have other interpretations....including that the devil was not an angel, or that he was...but maybe another creature...and was cast out of heaven (but can still visit) because he would ONLY WORSHIP GOD, and would not worship man (Immortal dumb naked Adam) as commanded by god.

WHAT?!!!

All of the interpretations are open to, um, interpretation. All the versions are espoused by those who studied the bibles and sources and came to different conclusions.


---------


It IS easy to see how there can be so MANY interpretations....the descriptions are all over the place.
Mostly because of people doing the work of Satan and making up bullshit to cause confusion and divide people.

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Old 01-27-2016, 10:31 PM #6534
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Mostly because of people doing the work of Satan and making up bullshit to cause confusion and divide people.

Alan
I see.

Can I assume your version is correct, and all the others are the confused BS?




Can you state what really happens after we die, once, just for the record?

Be sure to identify the involved parties, and what god, jesus, satan, souls, etc, DO, and, when/where.

Remember, this is for posterity so be honest.



--------------------------


For the record, My personal version is as follows:

1) We die

2) We remain dead


-------------------------

My Father's Version:

1) We die.

2) We meet St Peter, and he goes over the paperwork, etc, and, then we either get into heaven, or, are sent down to hell.

3) If we go to heaven, we cavort with angels and god and Jesus and Saints, like Nick, etc...we are given wings, and halos, and play the harp, and are SOOOOOO Happy.

4) If we go to hell, we are tortured forever by demons with pitchforks, fire and brimstone, possibly Justin Beiber soundtracks.

5) If the rapture/end time happens, etc, we all get our old bodies back, and walk the earth again, but have to fight on either the side of heaven or hell for possession of the earth.

6) The fight is fixed, evil loses (Don't bet unless you can find a sucker who didn't know how it comes out), and the bad critters are cast into a lake of fire for 1,000 years.

7) 1,000 years later, rinse, repeat.

-------------------------------------------------------



That artwork is just someone's imagination of what hell May be like.


PS - This was an illustration in a Prayer Book



You called it " just someone's imagination of what hell may be like"....which is of course true, as hell only exists in people's imaginations.

The fact that its from a prayer book is the POINT though, not that its a photo snapped in hell and uploaded for us. IE: THIS IS WHAT I WAS TAUGHT IN SUNDAY SCHOOL.


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Old 01-28-2016, 02:05 AM #6535
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Did he rise from the dead? I don't see how that's possible. Even today, I wouldn't immediately believe someone rose from the dead, even if 12 people say they saw it. Even if he did rise from the dead, does that mean he is supernatural? That's a jump. If he is supernatural? does that mean he is a diety? That's a jump. If he is a diety, how can you be sure the bible is his unadulterated word? That's a jump.

The cs lewis trilemma is (assuming he existed): is he a liar, lunatic, or lord? We can't even rule out the first two. Furthermore, he leaves out is a fourth L possibility which I think makes a lot more sense to atheists: Legend.



If you truly believe that, that probably means you're spending more time reinforcing your beliefs rather than challenging them. We all do it. But be aware.

The significance of the disciples death is they would have had no reason to continue to preach through persecution if Christ stayed in the grave. Either they sincerely believed or knowingly died for a lie and If this event actually occurred we need to ask what historically would we expect to find. The abundance of early scriptures stands as sufficient evidence to believe in these events.

I'm used to seeing C.S.'s trilemma used to respond to the stance of "Jesus was a good moral teacher but not God in the flesh" - If Jesus was not God then we was not a good moral teacher. I also think it presumes that Jesus existed and preached, which to my understanding, and to quote the critic Bart Ehrman, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees"

I do indeed spend more time studying Christianity than I spend on reading challenging ideas, but I do spend time on those challenges. I like to think if you compared Christian apologetics vs Islam apologetics for the claim of divinity as I have, that you would see the arguments for Islam are fundamentally weaker.


Quote:
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possibly Justin Beiber soundtracks.
I keep noticing you're consistently attacking catholicism. Personally I don't agree with their doctrine and I'm not intimately familiar with their traditions. I also haven't seen anyone here profess that they are catholic. You're bashing doctrine we already disagree with

Also be careful what you wish for. This newer one almost passes as an ok song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyEuk8j8imI
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:03 PM #6536
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The significance of the disciples death is they would have had no reason to continue to preach through persecution if Christ stayed in the grave. Either they sincerely believed or knowingly died for a lie and If this event actually occurred we need to ask what historically would we expect to find. The abundance of early scriptures stands as sufficient evidence to believe in these events.

I'm used to seeing C.S.'s trilemma used to respond to the stance of "Jesus was a good moral teacher but not God in the flesh" - If Jesus was not God then we was not a good moral teacher. I also think it presumes that Jesus existed and preached, which to my understanding, and to quote the critic Bart Ehrman, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees"

I do indeed spend more time studying Christianity than I spend on reading challenging ideas, but I do spend time on those challenges. I like to think if you compared Christian apologetics vs Islam apologetics for the claim of divinity as I have, that you would see the arguments for Islam are fundamentally weaker.




I keep noticing you're consistently attacking catholicism. Personally I don't agree with their doctrine and I'm not intimately familiar with their traditions. I also haven't seen anyone here profess that they are catholic. You're bashing doctrine we already disagree with

Also be careful what you wish for. This newer one almost passes as an ok song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyEuk8j8imI


1) You like Justin Beiber, My Father Does Not. My Father's version of hell included the potential for it to have Justin as the soundtrack.

You may therefore potentially either be a demon, accidentally giving away company secrets, or, my theory, indicating that if you WERE a demon in charge of post mortum auditory torture, you personally would not have chosen the correct sound track to torture my Father.



2) You keep referring to secular proofs of Jesus's existence, but not actually having any. Provide some actual first hand secular accounts of the biblical Jesus as a historical figure, outside of the ones that appeared many years later, by those who were either working with the church or repeating hearsay, etc.

Remember that a man can exist without being a god. So, the BIBLICAL Jesus is missing as a historical figure. People die for lies ALL THE TIME. Armies fight with god on their side, against each other. Suicide bombers blow themselves to smithereens believing that their cause is just. Electricians who firmly believed asbestos was harmless and a hoax to milk people out of their hard earned money, died of Asbestosis, and so on and so forth.

History records events such as floods and earthquakes, famine, drought, plagues, military victories, religious events, breakthroughs in science or technology, etc. So, there are records of some people, such as generals who won or lost, lands that were conquered, the guy who invented the screw in greek times, concrete in roman times, etc.

There's no mention, anywhere, of GOD WALKING AMONG MEN AND DYING FOR THEIR SINS. No mention of the myriad miracles/curing of lepers, etc.

There's evidence that the place of birth, that had a synagogue for Jesus to be kicked out of, etc...did not yet exist....and that, therefore, the story is made up by those who did not know the town didn't yet exist, as it DID exist later, after his death....when they made it all up.

And so forth.

So, evidence that its all made up, yes. Evidence that its not, nope.






3) You seem to think that there is more evidence of Jesus than Mohamed, albeit, there is more of Mohamed...and almost none of Mohamed, for perspective.



4) Judaism is the foundation of the the other two religions you are discussing. Except for some extra stuff hung onto them, like ornaments on a tree, its the same tree with different ornaments.

Judaism was earlier, and of course the most primitive...and warns against having other gods, etc.

Christianity was the middle child, and essentially includes the Hebrew version of the world as its foundation, acknowledges that it should not be changed one iota, etc.

Islam then incorporates BOTH the hebrew and christian worlds, and says IT can't be changed, and so forth...

So, they are interconnected religions. They share the creation myth, etc.
Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet of god, but not as being his own child. Christians might acknowledge that Mohamed existed, but not as a prophet of god or a god, etc....or deny it altogether instead of returning the favor.

If you gave credence to Islam as having a good basis for a religion, etc...that might have counted for something, except they give no basis for THEIR acceptance of Jesus, other than taking the Catholic Church's word for it....to help convert catholics.

So, jews incorporated aspects of worship familiar to their demographic, as did the christians, and then the Muslims.

If a fourth variation is added, it will potentially include the first three, and so forth...as that tends to ease the transition from the earlier, to the newer religions.


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Old 01-28-2016, 02:29 PM #6537
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

My Version of Genisis:

In the beginning, does not exist, as time is infinite, and has no beginning, or end.

Spacetime, extending infinitely in all directions, exists.

A property of spacetime is that it creates matter and energy in the form of electrons, photons and positrons.

These go through extremely long cycles of expansion and condensation that cause areas of space time to cycle through periods of intense heat and cold, and, during the cooling phase, the matter and energy can condense to form elements, which initially are lighter, but, after stars form, run through their cycles of growth and death, and explode, they spread the elements, including the heavier ones made in the stars, throughout the universe.

These can then in turn condense into planets and other bodies, which in turn can cool and form liquid water, and other compounds.

Crystals, and other minerals and compounds, react with other chemicals around them, and form new compounds. Some, that replicate themselves, such as crystals, will make more copies of themselves and use up more of the surrounding chemicals, to make even more copies, etc.

As these types of self replicating chemicals continue to react and make copies, they are available to OTHER chemicals of this type to react with THEM.

The ones with more ways to react, such as carbon based chemicals, react with a wider variety of compounds. This creates a wider and wider variety of organic compounds, that continue to compete for chemicals to react with, and, the ones that continued to react with more of the available chemicals, became progressively more and more numerous...and, proportionally more and more complicated due to the increasingly varied reaction methods.

This process continued until instead of a reaction simply going faster when warmer or at an optimum temperature or pH, it could be triggered by it, the same way something being soluable or reactive with something at a certain concentration or temperature, but not at others, is used to initiate certain processes when those conditions are present.

So the chemical might unfurl an active site when in the presence of a particular chemical or condition...the same way we see a curved chemical straighten, or a straight chemical curl, etc.

It is now reacting to its environment in a simple way. The process continues with the chemicals that adapt to their environment better creating more copies of themselves.

Over millenia, this process results in progressively more complexity and adaptation to the environment.

At some point, the chemicals are complicated enough to consider them to be alive. Some are at a hazy line, such as a virus, which some consider to be alive, and, some consider to be as complicated a chemical as you can get without being a live. A Prion, essentially just a complicated chemical that can fold and unfold, is not considered alive, but, like a virus, they do count getting it in your brain, etc, as an infection.

After millenia, the process continues with fine tuning for the environment, and, chemicals/wee beasties, that could not adapt to changes going extinct, and those that survived continuing the process.

RNA and then DNA, protiens and other chemicals that added the process became incorporated, and, eventually, became the equivalent for computer code like abilities between organisms. So, if you had the code for making a chemical that reacted to a virus and made something to kill it, or to synthesize one chemical or energy source into another...something that ATE YOU, or, absorbed your emissions, might then also have that code.

The ones who became better at exchanging these codes had a competitive advantage, especially when conditions changed and code to adapt to the change was vital to survival.

The ways organisms exchanged and passed on code therefore also evolved.

Eventually, you have information that can be passed via code, as well as by influencing the environment as a signal to others of a condition.

Pheromones for example are an emission an organism releases to communicate to others. If released at death, the others know you died/something that kills us is out there (RUN! or maybe, RELEASE THE DEATH STUFF!, etc) They can also communicate that they found food, leave a trail to follow, and so forth.

Sound, vibrations, color changes, etc, can also be used...and ways to optimize their use evolved.

Eventually, they evolved to the point where typing on a key board that transmits the communication via radio waves and streams of electrons to screens that view the communication regarding religion, on a site dedicated to those who love lasers...is possible.

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Old 01-28-2016, 02:50 PM #6538
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The one thing that is common to all forms of Christianity is the myth of the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus. It should be interesting to note that the story of the resurrection did not exist in the earliest manuscripts. Further, the Gospels were composed during times when hundreds of Jews were being crucified each week. They were written for a Greco-Roman audience. If the events did actually happen, the obvious role of the Romans in the trial of Jesus as well as his execution “had to be whitewashed and presented as sympathetically as possible” (Holy Blood, Holy Grail 348). There was absolutely no criticism of Roman oppression, nor any mention of Jewish revolt. The Jews were cast in the role of villains, but this is historically illogical because they (the Sanhedrin) had the right to pass death sentences. They did not need Pontius Pilate. Further, if they had wanted Jesus to be killed, he would have been stoned to death, not crucified. Crucifixion was exclusively used by Rome to execute the enemies of Rome. It was never a Jewish form of capital punishment. If he really was crucified, he did something to provoke Roman wrath, not Jewish wrath.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 01-28-2016, 03:29 PM #6539
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Does your interpretation come from the One who is Light or from the one who imitates light?

  • Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
  • This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
  • Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
  • Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
  • This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
or
  • Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

  • For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Aliens?
Rubbish, they are demonic spirits posing as extra-terrestrials.

Your version of Genesis?
Rubbish, you have fallen for The Lie too.

Unless we admit we are sinners and repent, no one will enter the kingdom and The Lie will consume you.

But know this...
  • For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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Old 01-28-2016, 03:52 PM #6540
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
The one thing that is common to all forms of Christianity is the myth of the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus. It should be interesting to note that the story of the resurrection did not exist in the earliest manuscripts. Further, the Gospels were composed during times when hundreds of Jews were being crucified each week. They were written for a Greco-Roman audience. If the events did actually happen, the obvious role of the Romans in the trial of Jesus as well as his execution “had to be whitewashed and presented as sympathetically as possible” (Holy Blood, Holy Grail 348). There was absolutely no criticism of Roman oppression, nor any mention of Jewish revolt. The Jews were cast in the role of villains, but this is historically illogical because they (the Sanhedrin) had the right to pass death sentences. They did not need Pontius Pilate. Further, if they had wanted Jesus to be killed, he would have been stoned to death, not crucified. Crucifixion was exclusively used by Rome to execute the enemies of Rome. It was never a Jewish form of capital punishment. If he really was crucified, he did something to provoke Roman wrath, not Jewish wrath.


All true.




Also, when the earliest version WITH it appeared, it was mentioning the tomb was empty. Later versions added a witness, then a lot of witnesses, and then special effects and flowery descriptions of the glory and power, and even conversations before heading out, etc.

A lot of editing was initiated after Nicaea, as they finally decided on whether to make Jesus a man or god, Mary as mom, fix her hymen or not...let go the messianic need to have a father's bloodline documented, given they decided to go with god as his own dad instead of the original version....once deciding he had to be resurrected, and, then, prayed to as a god, etc.

There was no Concordia back then, so editing and continuity was a problem. After writing new sections and burning/tossing older sections, they were left with a patchwork quilt. They still wrestle with making sense of the resultant mess thousands of years later.


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Old 01-28-2016, 03:54 PM #6541
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Does your interpretation come from the One who is Light or from the one who imitates light?

  • Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
  • This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
  • Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
  • Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
  • This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
or
  • Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

  • For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Aliens?
Rubbish, they are demonic spirits posing as extra-terrestrials.

Your version of Genesis?
Rubbish, you have fallen for The Lie too.

Unless we admit we are sinners and repent, no one will enter the kingdom and The Lie will consume you.

But know this...
  • For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.


You seem to have accidentally pasted a bunch of bible quotes for some reason?

We already know the bible says its true yada yada yada.

We already know your only source for the bible is the Catholic Church.

We already know you reject the Catholic Church as who they say they are.

We already know that the only authority they had to say that the bible was the word of god, and true, is who they say they are.

What we DON'T know, is why you take what they say as gospel, while saying they lied.





We are looking for secular confirmation, not being called liars or fools for believing something you don't/not believing something you do.


My version of Genesis is admittedly off the cuff/typed on a phone...and not flowery, etc...but, its a HELL of a lot more plausible than the Genesis as described in the bibles.

Would you like to compare my version to your version, and we can fact check them both for plausibility?

We can each find citations in science to support our claims. Obviously, neither of us can use fictional literature, such as novels, or the bible, as they are works of fiction. Non-biblical support for biblical claims to corroborate the claims.

We'll take it a section at a time, you first, show your non-biblical confirmation as to how time and space started, and what existed before that.

After you show that, I'll show evidence that supports what I said, and we'll go back and forth until we get to the end.




Or am I simply a liar?



I think someone's pants are on fire. You assume they are mine.






PS - My version comes from ME, and, I do make light (If you count flashlights and lasers, etc...). Its real, made of photons...not that imitation light from China, etc. I also use the sun, which is also real.

Yours comes from the Catholic Church, who say they got it because they represent god here on earth. You say they don't.

What kind of light is THAT?


The kind of light emitted by a sun that revolves around the flat earth?

Is that the kind of light you are talking about?





I use light emitted by a sun at the center of our solar system, that the earth revolves around. I don't believe in demons or other supernatural beings. I don't think we've been visited by space aliens, at least there's no proof other than TV special level conspiracy theories, etc...but its not impossible for them to exist....just unlikely that we'd ever find each other given the vast time and space constraints.

Your source claims the TRUE light is from a sun orbiting the earth, with earth at the center.
YOUR light has demons posing as aliens from other planets.


Are you SURE your light is more true than mine?


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Old 01-28-2016, 04:06 PM #6542
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well Teeg, I could say the same thing about your own interpretation of our genesis.
I don't want your secular theories, I would like you to tell me in the beginning, what was it that exploded and began what you call the Big Bang?

You see, you're in the same delema you think I'm in.

You think that by rejecting everything presented to you by the Word that you can get by with your own mythical ideas of the universe you inhabit.
Thus hoping that when you die you won't be held accountable for your actions.

Same with Alaskan, he's 'praying ' that aliens exist because he's got no clue of our genesis either.




Edit: you edited your post while I was replying so sorry if I didn't answer this.
You're also wrong about the origin of the Bible, its not the Catholics that inspired the Bible, it was God who inspired people to write down His Word.

My pants are fine btw, LOL.

Also I didn't say you're a liar, you're simple relaying The Lie as your own belief and truth.
Difference there, but the outcome is disastrous to you and others just the same.
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀

Last edited by RB astro; 01-28-2016 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 01-28-2016, 04:40 PM #6543
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Well Teeg, I could say the same thing about your own interpretation of our genesis.
I don't want your secular theories, I would like you to tell me in the beginning, what was it that exploded and began what you call the Big Bang?


NOTHING EXPLODED. You would need to read books about physics to understand what the "Big Bang" actually consisted of. You would need to understand spacetime, and how it warps and changes in relation to mass and energy.

You would need to understand relativity and cosmology.

The reason it seems so random and arbitrary to you, is that you do not know what it is, or, how it works, or that as a theory, it explains many other phenomena, and also predicted still more.

Sure, we are still working out details...but they are details. There are still mysteries out there, such a dark energy, etc...but there are studies that are exploring these issues.

If you were to learn about the involved science, you would be astounded by what we have learned, and HOW we learned it.

For example, spacetime and the theory of relativity are understood at a functional level. We use the warping of spacetime to make our GPS work for example. When we did NOT account for the warping of spacetime, the GPS would not work. Nuclear and atomic energy would not be possible unless it were TRUE.

We can OBSERVE photons, positron and electrons being spontaneously generated if we create spacetime vacuum conditions...so, matter and energy are a property of spacetime...and that's how we get matter and energy.

After you are familiar with quarks and all that invisible stuff, and quantum entanglement, etc...and see how it was discovered, tested, confirmed, etc, so its NOT a matter of faith to believe it...its a matter of understanding.

Understanding is a very nice thing. It ALLOWS you to make informed decisions about the world.

I've read the bible, I was great in Sunday School. I have lots of bibles. Millions of people read bibles, and, come away from the literature with different interpretations.

Physicists also interpret what they see/read/observe, but, mostly AGREE with peer reviewed data, and, if they differ, they have alternate theories, and, those theories are then tested. Theories that are falsified/shown to be flawed are discarded, or improved. Theories that not only explain what they needed to explain, are not shown to be false, and which can also in turn allow new predictions that can in turn then be verified as true, are accepted as being valid.

The "Big Bang" theory has stood the test of time, and, so far, works great. It works, makes correct predictions about the universe, is not in conflict with other known data, and is not accepted due to faith, but understanding.





You see, you're in the same delema you think I'm in.

You think that by rejecting everything presented to you by the Word that you can get by with your own mythical ideas of the universe you inhabit.
Thus hoping that when you die you won't be held accountable for your actions.

Same with Alaskan, he's 'praying ' that aliens exist because he's got no clue of our genesis either.




Edit: you edited your post while I was replying so sorry if I didn't answer this.
You're also wrong about the origin of the Bible, its not the Catholics that inspired the Bible, it was God who inspired people to write down His Word.

My pants are fine btw, LOL.

Also I didn't say you're a liar, you're simple relaying The Lie as your own belief and truth.
Difference there, but the outcome is disastrous to you and others just the same.


Um, what "people" did god inspire to write down his word? (I didn't say Catholics inspired the bible, I said they wrote it.

I am saying that THEY are the ones who TOLD YOU that god inspired them to write it, and, BECAUSE they said god told them what to write, THAT MADE IT the word of god.)


Also, I am NOW accountable for my actions. After I'm dead is not relevant. I want to be a force for good NOW, because now is all I have. There is no "later". If I can't do whatever it is that needs to be done while I'm alive, I don't get to do it.

I don't do things NOW because I think I get a cookie after I'm dead.




PS - Wow, sorry for the crazy font size, my phone is a bit psychotic.

And, saying I am repeating a lie is analogous to telling a lie, which, most would consider to be lying. I do understand the fine line you are drawing though.

I smell something burning though, I think its your pants? ( I HAVE burned holes in some of mine though, accidental activation of lasers mostly...so, we can both check, just in case...)




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Old 01-28-2016, 05:17 PM #6544
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
....Thus hoping that when you die you won't be held accountable for your actions...
this one makes some atheists like myself mad, what you would call offended.

I take accountability for my actions here and now. If I wrong a party, I make it right with them instead of praying for forgiveness to magic sky daddy. my moral values require this. technically all a christian has to do to get in to heaven is ask god to forgive their sins because jesus died for them. that's a bullshit moral standard to me. I know, some places in the bible say we arent justified by faith alone but also by our works, but then other places say all you need is faith and that works dont count for much.

you say your god is not only a loving god but a just one, and that's why he has to do the whole hell punishment thing. why do you think infinite punishment for finite sins is just? if the law here on earth punished all crime with the death penalty, then there'd be no reason not to kill every witness when stealing a candy bar from a store, the consequence is the same. why is inherited sin considered just? just because god says so? the only country I know of that does anything like this (punishing families of "criminals", not just the "criminals") is north korea. are you disgusted by that country's policy? if so, why not god's policy of original sin? how is one just and the other not?

should I start raping, murdering, stealing, lying, etc since I'll go to hell regardless, simply because I don't believe, if I have inclination towards such things?



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Last edited by Shakenawake; 01-28-2016 at 05:25 PM.
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