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Old 01-25-2016, 11:28 PM #6513
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ in both secular and biblical history. It is unreasonable to doubt a mans birth because you lack a "birth certificate" when you have overwhelming evidence for his existence.
There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus as portrayed in the bible, other than the Catholic Church and the bible they claim is the word of god, given to them because they are god's representative here on earth.

Historically, there is no mention of Jesus...outside of the church sources. And those are in conflict with each other on several issues, as well as containing known fabrications. The scraps of writings that may be non-forgeries tend to not identify the author, and the church just said "so and so said this"...but there is no historical authentication for any of it.

Even the having to go somewhere else to pay taxes, his very birth place, visits by kings or wisemen, etc, was shown to simply fly in the face of historical data.

There is more evidence that he didn't exist than that he did exist. He appears to be a composite character...invented by the church long after the time he was supposed to have lived. This explains the records of the times not mentioning him, forgeries being created to make it appear as though he used to exist, and errors in geography, etc, expected of the time period the writings were concocted, being made about the time they wanted it to appear things happened.



How did you interpret "~ zero", as "overwhelming"?




“Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence." Doesn't make the absence of evidence into overwhelming evidence.




For example, where is conclusive secular evidence, from an unrelated source?

Mohamed was reported to wander around preaching by towns he passed through.

If a town had mentioned Jesus passing through, given he should have been pretty famous, having inspired kings from other regions to follow a star to his manger to give him gifts...I'm pretty sure a town would remember those guys and their holy mission going through.

Religious pilgrimages also recorded holy places, that the pilgrims would stop by...for various religions.

No one stopped by Nazareth...until hundreds of years later, the Church said that's where he was from, and essentially had to build the place so that it would exist.


The CLOSEST one could get to there being a historic Jesus, is if he were not the Jesus in the bible, and was instead a Jewish Zealot, a rebel fighting the romans. There was evidence of this character...a man who was fighting for fundamentalist interpretation of jewish law, who, historically at least, was the most likely to be a real guy at least.

But, that guy had human parents, and did not go around preaching peace...he was a rebel warrior that the romans caught and executed.

He was transmogrified by attributing some preaching done by some other guys to him, losing the lion and making him a lamb, and propping him up as an example of a good person who said to pay the taxes and turn the other cheek, and the meek will inherit the earth, and other pacifist stuff that was the opposite of being a rebel fighter.

IE: A religion better designed to control the masses than anything before it, until Islam came along and supplanted it in that role.

So, no biblical jesus seems to have existed...merely some composite snippets taped together to make a new holy guy:

The Christinstein



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Old 01-26-2016, 01:37 AM #6514
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 01-26-2016, 03:04 AM #6515
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

LOL


Atheists just don't believe god existed...

Why do illogical people always assume that if THEY believe, the other person MUST too, but is somehow in denial about it?


You just say you don't believe in god because you hate him!

You just say you don't believe in the easter bunny because you hate him!


For the record, logically, please understand that if you don't think something exists, it precludes hating it.


It IS somewhat normal for those with brains that are fear biased, such as those who are more conservative, superstitious, etc....so that any or all of the 5 regions that trigger these threat perceptions can light up when a core belief is threatened....to simply PERCEIVE someone saying god doesn't exist, for example, AS an attack upon them.

I get that, the brain studies say you can't really help it. Just trust me when I say its not an attack by me, on you...its just me stating my opinion...on a BELIEF...not on YOU.


I love you guys - Really, there's no attack. This thread is to discuss beliefs.

So...I ask for independent secular evidence, from an unrelated source, of a historical Jesus as depicted in the bible.

I looked, and, as mentioned, could only find reputable sources that seemed to point to a composite charactor, with a potential real guy as a baseline, who was a Jewish Rebel fighter.


The further one gets from Church associated sources, and sources that are considered forgeries or anachronistic, etc, the sketchier the evidence, fading to zero.

I AM interested if there are any new sources though, as that would be something new to consider.


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Old 01-26-2016, 03:05 AM #6516
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus as portrayed in the bible, other than the Catholic Church and the bible they claim is the word of god, given to them because they are god's representative here on earth.

Historically, there is no mention of Jesus...outside of the church sources
By the end of the first century, the four gospels had circulated thousands of miles throughout the Roman empire, and complete books exist today from the 2nd century. Claiming the Catholic Church as the only source is incorrect.

For your potentially non-church secular sources-

Julius Africanus
Pliny the Younger
The Babylonian Talmud
Lucian of Samosata
Mara Bar-Serapion
Gnostic writings

All acknowledge Christs existence.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:36 AM #6517
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
By the end of the first century, the four gospels had circulated thousands of miles throughout the Roman empire, and complete books exist today from the 2nd century. Claiming the Catholic Church as the only source is incorrect.

For your potentially non-church secular sources-

Julius Africanus
Pliny the Younger
The Babylonian Talmud
Lucian of Samosata
Mara Bar-Serapion
Gnostic writings

All acknowledge Christs existence.


Um, that's an invalid list, as its mostly supplied by the church, and gospels, apostles, etc, are their creation.

Pliny the Younger wasn't even born until well after the alleged death of our subject...so, anything he says is hearsay.

Julius was born more than a century too late as well...with the same problem.

The talmud referenced also was hundreds of years later, and, is noted as containing unconfirmed sources for much of its content.

Lucian, again, too late, etc.

Mara, again too late, but heard about jesus from someone in prison. Experts put him in that scenario between 73 and 300 AD....in the rough range of the earliest attempts to create documents that support Jesus's existence. So Mar's existance is not documented let alone his letter to his sone who is not documented, so, it proves nothing.

IE: I am in prison and I write a letter to my son saying I heard that this guy Ralph claims that this guy Hey Sous is a god. (In Mara's letter, it does NOT indicate he believes this btw.)

Thousands of years later, you find my letter, and say, hey, PROOF that Hey Sous existed!

Gnostics, um, really? That's a broad group, and the context again is well after the fact.


So, again, there really are no reliable historical documents that are not church supplied in one way shape or form...or simply not proof.

Something like the dead sea scrolls, an essentially municipal document rather than a religious one...THAT would have been pretty good, as the scrolls dated to the time frame involved, and, if there was some guy healing the sick and walking on water and dying and being resurrected, it would tend to be recorded, as that's a big deal.

Just as the Egyptians and Chinese, etc, kept meticulous records of weather, flooding, river levels, harvests, foreign visits, etc, going back many thousands of years...and seemed to have forgotten to note BOTH a global flood, AND that they were drowned...and merely went on recording until modern times.

Same for death of first born, exodus, plagues, etc.

All are just ancient myths.

No evidence they happened, lots of evidence they could not have.

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:00 AM #6518
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Um, that's an invalid list, as its mostly supplied by the church, and gospels, apostles, etc, are their creation.
I though you would say that. So your belief is the biblical Jesus is wholly a fabrication of a group of ppl. When, to what end, and how do you support this belief?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You and I disagreeing on what "overwhelming" means aside, even if there was a man named jesus that lived, you'd need to prove he performed the things he did. Then you'd need to prove those "miracles" were supernatural. Then you'd need to prove the supernatural is governed by God and God alone. Then you'd need to prove God inspired the bible. Then you'd need to prove it hasn't been corrupted in any way by man. Then you'd need to prove your interpretation of scripture is the only correct interpretation of scripture. That's too many leaps for me to make. All of your stated reasons to believe could be applied to the Quran, and yet you do not believe the words of the Quran.

I'm not even convinced on the first premise. A preacher named Jesus possibly existed, and that's as far as I agree.
Does each step need to be proven, or just enough steps to find it probable? If the evidence is strong that he rose from the dead and the apostles were willing to die for belief in this man, is it such a leap for the rest, not that one is even required though. The Quran does not have the same backing as Christianity.
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:34 AM #6519
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I though you would say that. So your belief is the biblical Jesus is wholly a fabrication of a group of ppl. When, to what end, and how do you support this belief?



Does each step need to be proven, or just enough steps to find it probable? If the evidence is strong that he rose from the dead and the apostles were willing to die for belief in this man, is it such a leap for the rest, not that one is even required though. The Quran does not have the same backing as Christianity.

The people said to be "willing to die for him", may not have existed, or, if they existed, may not have known the biblical Jesus, merely a man, etc. Some are KNOWN to be made up...others, well, a scrap of paper was found with writing that could be anyone...and we're TOLD its "X" or "Y"...but, its not really known, for any of it.

IE: The word of god contained documents that were known forgeries....HTF would THAT happen?





So, the entire process is improbable.

First, for the story to work, there had to be original sin. This then requires that children and so forth, can be punished for the sins of their ancestors.

That then also assumes that its a sin to be made not knowing right from wrong, unless they eat the apple....but to not have yet eaten the apple, yet, somehow know it was wrong to do so, before eating it.

If they had to eat it to know right from wrong...they didn't know it was wrong to eat it.

Is it a sin if you didn't know it was wrong?

If so, is it SO bad a sin that you are cast out of Eden, have to have painful births, and work for a living, and, no longer be immortal?

And to have your progeny punished the same way, forever?

If Jesus died for that sin, why do woman still have painful births, etc?


Why did not an omniscient god NOT know that he made a man who would not want a donkey or monkey for a companion?

Why, after making him a rib-woman, did he THEN say he wanted them to breed? Before the animals didn't work out (SURPRISE!), he was just going to have a dumb naked Adam....and make the angels bow to it.

Why did he make them stupid/not able to think? If they could think, they'd figure out right and wrong...so, why make the tree of KNOWLEDGE off limits?


And so on and so forth. Its so far fetched an old Sumerian myth that its just not worth the effort to go though all the illogical and ridiculous aspects of it.

So, the premise is a silly myth...making all that follows ridiculous as well.



As for the other holy books others ascribe to, yeah, not so great either. The Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths are essentially the same faith, in that they believe in the same god, and the disagreements then are all about what human forms he took or didn't and some rather minor details as to how to express one's devotion. THEY all see these niggling little details as enormous differences...and, historically, are quite willing to die or kill to convince others.

All of them have fundamentalist, and, less fundamentalist branches and sects....and those sects/branches act like religions in to themselves, further dividing the main three into ever smaller factions...all claiming only THEY are the true path, etc.

ALL the books, really, are like a trilogy, as they interconnect and share fundamental principles. Religions of peace, love and charity, the golden rule, tolerance, and prosecution of those who disagree, etc.


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Old 01-26-2016, 08:58 PM #6520
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you look at the bible from a non-literal standpoint (which I try to be literal) I don't think they were talking about a "Tree". I think they were talking about s3x.
They "took from the tree of good and evil"
This goes back to my saying they bred with the fallen angels.
Lucifer (the serpent, phallic in nature) chose Eve to breed with. This produced the evil son Cain. Literally had evil demon blood. (If you go with this crazy theory). It wasn't that there wasn't painful birth prior, birth is just a painful experience. They learned of s3xual desire, birth is the outcome. Monthly Cycles are just a part of the way women's bodies work. The next thing we know is that the "fruit" (s3x) was shared with Adam. Then Abel is born. I think this fills in the holes and makes a lot more sense than "they are some fruit and that was bad".
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:11 PM #6521
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
If you look at the bible from a non-literal standpoint (which I try to be literal) I don't think they were talking about a "Tree". I think they were talking about s3x.
They "took from the tree of good and evil"
This goes back to my saying they bred with the fallen angels.
Lucifer (the serpent, phallic in nature) chose Eve to breed with. This produced the evil son Cain. Literally had evil demon blood. (If you go with this crazy theory). It wasn't that there wasn't painful birth prior, birth is just a painful experience. They learned of s3xual desire, birth is the outcome. Monthly Cycles are just a part of the way women's bodies work. The next thing we know is that the "fruit" (s3x) was shared with Adam. Then Abel is born. I think this fills in the holes and makes a lot more sense than "they are some fruit and that was bad".
The tree is a tree, its in the old testament, and, in the earlier works the bible plagiarized, etc.

So, no, God making an immortally dumb naked Adam and making the angels bow to it...was god's plan.

The serpent was also a borrowed prop, etc...its just a representation of satan, and/or a critter satan possessed, etc.

The bible says BECAUSE they were set up for failure, by god, and, then failed as expected, they were PUNISHED by men having to work for a living and woman have to have painful births (Yes, of COURSE people always had to work, and, birth hurts...just as it hurts other animals, etc...and there were rainbows before the flood, and so forth....but myths like to tie it all together)

The snake didn't do it with eve...there was no demon seed, as there were no eve, adam, tree or garden, no devil, no god...its a story.

You confused ROSEMARY with EVE.






You are trying to write a new prequel script, which is fine, but its still a work of fan fiction.




Besides, if the result of CARNAL knowledge then meant wanting to put clothes on, that would be counter to how it works in real life.

When $3X is discovered, it leads to more of it, not wanting to cover up and hide the goods.

Because Bronze Age "wisdom/knowledge" meant knowing you need to hide the goods, that's what they did to illustrate that they were now smart.

As knowledge is bad, wanting it is presented as "trying to be like god" (Who made you in his image...?) and evil...because trying to know things, you know, is evil...especially when trying to know things like god knows things....because, um, god's evil?


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Old 01-26-2016, 11:45 PM #6522
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Did he rise from the dead? I don't see how that's possible. Even today, I wouldn't immediately believe someone rose from the dead, even if 12 people say they saw it. Even if he did rise from the dead, does that mean he is supernatural? That's a jump. If he is supernatural? does that mean he is a diety? That's a jump. If he is a diety, how can you be sure the bible is his unadulterated word? That's a jump.

The cs lewis trilemma is (assuming he existed): is he a liar, lunatic, or lord? We can't even rule out the first two. Furthermore, he leaves out is a fourth L possibility which I think makes a lot more sense to atheists: Legend.

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The Quran does not have the same backing as Christianity.
If you truly believe that, that probably means you're spending more time reinforcing your beliefs rather than challenging them. We all do it. But be aware.
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:51 PM #6523
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

"You are trying to write a new prequel script, which is fine, but its still a work of fan fiction."

There was a prequel already written. The devil's bible reads as a prequel. Although the motive is to change the story to the devil being a "good guy". Have you read it?
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:52 PM #6524
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The devil's bible? is it available on Amazon?
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:07 AM #6525
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
The devil's bible? is it available on Amazon?
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:46 AM #6526
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
I have not read the one linked, which seems a bit sparse on content...but, again, its a story book.

I don't believe in supernatural things...so, sprites, elves, fairies, devils, angels, whatever, its the same stuff.

I COULD see the devil as being the good guy though, just from the bible.

He seems to do far less evil than god, but, seems to work for god.

IE: He plays the bad cop...so god can say behave, or the devil will get you....

He is supposed to run a torture facility to torture those who want to be on his side.

That makes no sense either.


IE: God says "If you don't believe I impregnated some bronze age chick with myself, so I could kill myself to forgive you for me making you not know right from wrong and then doing wrong...and worship the VERSION of me for saving you from that...THEN, I will cast you down to hell to be tortured for all eternity"

AND

The devil is an angel who didn't want to worship the immortally dumb naked Adam, and left heaven.

He got to live in the garden of Eden though, a paradise....

AND

The devil was never evicted, only Adam and Eve...so, Eden is where the Devil lives.


So, the Devil rejected god, left, under bad terms it was said...

Yet works for god torturing people so that it makes the others want to worship god to AVOID the torture?

AND

The devil is supposed to be preparing an army to defeat god, but instead of recruiting, training troops, building morale and esprit de corps, he spends his time doing propaganda work for the other side?


That's so screwed up either he doesn't exist either, or, he IS god.


Afterall, god was described as creating the heavens and earth, the stars, etc...animals, plants, and, immortal dumb naked people.

He was never described as creating the angels, sea monsters expected to fight him later, etc.

So, if he can exist as a human while existing as a god, why not as a huge whale or snake or demon or angel?

Sure, why not, god is the uber paranoid schizophrenic.

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Old 01-27-2016, 01:26 AM #6527
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
"You are trying to write a new prequel script, which is fine, but its still a work of fan fiction."

There was a prequel already written. The devil's bible reads as a prequel. Although the motive is to change the story to the devil being a "good guy". Have you read it?
Are you seriously talking about the "Codex Gigas"? It's written in Latin from the 1200's, most people can't read that, anyway it's mainly a collection of other books if what I have read about it is true. It's available online if you can read Latin.

There are several books that turn up in your Amazon search. I purchased 2 of them long ago and read them and one I later regretted reading, although it did cause me to end up reading many more books. I believe I still have them and a few others packed away in a box.

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Old 01-27-2016, 01:45 AM #6528
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I have not read the one linked, which seems a bit sparse on content...but, again, its a story book.

I don't believe in supernatural things...so, sprites, elves, fairies, devils, angels, whatever, its the same stuff.

Thats why it's a story book to you and not to others, and no those aren't all the same stuff.

I COULD see the devil as being the good guy though, just from the bible.

He seems to do far less evil than god, but, seems to work for god.

Then maybe you should get to know him, I am sure he would love you very much.

IE: He plays the bad cop...so god can say behave, or the devil will get you....

He is supposed to run a torture facility to torture those who want to be on his side.

That makes no sense either.

No it doesn't, how can you keep making up this bullshit? Where do you get that from? That is not in the bible and not a Christian belief.


IE: God says "If you don't believe I impregnated some bronze age chick with myself, so I could kill myself to forgive you for me making you not know right from wrong and then doing wrong...and worship the VERSION of me for saving you from that...THEN, I will cast you down to hell to be tortured for all eternity"

AND

The devil is an angel who didn't want to worship the immortally dumb naked Adam, and left heaven.

The devil isn't an angel, he is a cherubim, I guess you could argue that's a type of angel.

He got to live in the garden of Eden though, a paradise....

There is nothing I know of that says he ever lived in Eden.

AND

The devil was never evicted, only Adam and Eve...so, Eden is where the Devil lives.

Your making up more bullshit.

So, the Devil rejected god, left, under bad terms it was said...

At least you got something right!

Yet works for god torturing people so that it makes the others want to worship god to AVOID the torture?

More bullshit.

AND

The devil is supposed to be preparing an army to defeat god, but instead of recruiting, training troops, building morale and esprit de corps, he spends his time doing propaganda work for the other side?

He and his followers are at war with God, you have the rest of it wrong.


That's so screwed up either he doesn't exist either, or, he IS god.


Afterall, god was described as creating the heavens and earth, the stars, etc...animals, plants, and, immortal dumb naked people.

He was never described as creating the angels, sea monsters expected to fight him later, etc.

So, if he can exist as a human while existing as a god, why not as a huge whale or snake or demon or angel?

Sure, why not, god is the uber paranoid schizophrenic.

I am at a loss for more words.

Alan
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