Old 01-15-2016, 03:36 AM #6465
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Many are divided on the belief whether general revelation can be counted as righteousness. I can support my position but then again there are arguments for both sides. Although this is a difficult reality and not a topic to tread lightly on, as cold as this may seem neither view poses a defeating logical inconsistency to Christianity.

On a personal note I was raised Christian, fell away in college, and came back near the end of my college years. What brought me back and has kept me here has been my belief in an intelligent agent revealed in nature & Jesus.

"How is God revealed in nature"
I see it in the fine tuning of the universe, the existence of abstract objects and their relations to reality, the complexity of early life on earth, our moral experience, and consciousness to name a few. Being open to the existence of God frees me from the philosophy that the unexplained or "supernatural" is impossible, and the hypothesis that God would raise Jesus from the dead becomes plausible. The resurrection account passes the criteria of authenticity, historical fit, independent early sources, embarrassment, coherence, and this all points to God raising Jesus from the dead. It's completely reasonable to come to this conclusion when seeking the meaning of existence and it has anchored my faith since my return. There are difficult topics in scripture, but the issues you're bringing up are ancillary to the center of it all... Jesus.

One more thing I want to point out to you is how you've been challenging our faith in Christ.

1 Peter 3:15

This is the model I strive for when sharing my faith although I do fail. Sharing in gentleness and respect, love and kindness. It can produce a genuine spark to show someone you care about them even if you don't know them, even if they are your enemy. But so much coming from yourself and the atheists here is condescending, rude, and uncaring. It's strange to claim your morality is superior, then continually act this way.
well, obviously I disagree on your first points. I do at least respect that you think your belief is grounded in evidence. it means that to a degree at least, you reject faith as being a strong enough reason to believe something. I'm glad it's at least supplemented by what you have been convinced is evidence

you bring up a good second point though. I want all you guys to know I'd never treat any of you any different elsewhere in the forums, I can recall helping you before, elsewhere, duke. you got me though, there is vitriol in my words. and sometimes I let it slip from the belief to the individual, and for that, I am sorry. it's not so simple though. it's a struggle I know from personal life, my mother had a painting with part of Ephesians 4:15, "speaking the truth in love". sometimes you take ridicule of your beliefs as personal ridicule, because your beliefs are so much a part of you that its hard to seperate yourself from them. I wont hold back ridicule of beliefs, but I will try to make sure it doesnt spill over to the person from now on. I think I've only slipped up a time or two there though

the problem is how do you tell someone lovingly that they were born a sinner and deserve the default consequence for having the audacity to be born, which is everlasting torment? wailing and gnashing of teeth I believe. I can't reconcile this with a fair and loving god. it causes me anger to be told I am born a dirty sinner and that I deserve hell. it angers me that this happens to children all over the world. I don't know much about love, but it seems to me if you want it from someone, you don't start out with a threat.

I believe that you believe you are doing the right thing, so can't fault you too much. not so different from the rest of my family. I dont really expect to get through to you any more than I can with any of them, religion has strong roots, they can't be pulled so easily. the armor of god, the shield of faith, is a good metaphor. block all the reason with the shield of faith. why do I keep coming back? like Pi r squared, i have a hard time refraining from responding to what I see as incorrect. it's good for a laugh every now and then as well. sometimes I tell myself I'm gonna stay out of it, then I end up back again.

my main hope in using ridicule is to spark critical thinking and from time to time, a laugh. I cant help that some of your beliefs are hysterical to us.

your right about caring for an enemy and the spark, however it has no bearing on the truth of the claim. the same goes for us atheist pricks, just cause we might have said something in a mean way doesnt mean it's wrong. so ideally yes, the poster boy for secularism would be real charasmatic and kind, but I am not that person. It'd be nice if every person in the bible could have shared your philosophy instead of destroying entire cities, killing every living thing

I enjoy the discourse though, so thanks for that. I'm not above reproof even if your guy's beliefs are

I think emergence adequately explains complexity, I've mentioned so before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence


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Old 01-15-2016, 01:09 PM #6466
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Many are divided on the belief whether general revelation can be counted as righteousness. I can support my position but then again there are arguments for both sides. Although this is a difficult reality and not a topic to tread lightly on, as cold as this may seem neither view poses a defeating logical inconsistency to Christianity.

On a personal note I was raised Christian, fell away in college, and came back near the end of my college years. What brought me back and has kept me here has been my belief in an intelligent agent revealed in nature & Jesus.

"How is God revealed in nature"
I see it in the fine tuning of the universe, the existence of abstract objects and their relations to reality, the complexity of early life on earth, our moral experience, and consciousness to name a few. Being open to the existence of God frees me from the philosophy that the unexplained or "supernatural" is impossible, and the hypothesis that God would raise Jesus from the dead becomes plausible. The resurrection account passes the criteria of authenticity, historical fit, independent early sources, embarrassment, coherence, and this all points to God raising Jesus from the dead. It's completely reasonable to come to this conclusion when seeking the meaning of existence and it has anchored my faith since my return. There are difficult topics in scripture, but the issues you're bringing up are ancillary to the center of it all... Jesus.

One more thing I want to point out to you is how you've been challenging our faith in Christ.

1 Peter 3:15

This is the model I strive for when sharing my faith although I do fail. Sharing in gentleness and respect, love and kindness. It can produce a genuine spark to show someone you care about them even if you don't know them, even if they are your enemy. But so much coming from yourself and the atheists here is condescending, rude, and uncaring. It's strange to claim your morality is superior, then continually act this way.
Why is it that Christians feel that they can tell people, with impunity, that they are right, and you must accept their beliefs, and, those who question their claims are fools, etc...

...but who can't see that as arrogant?


If anyone mocks their claims, as they mock the non-believers claims, they only seem to see the non-believers as insensitive or cruel?


And, as mentioned, according to the bible, god ignored all but the middle east in his appearances...and, yet, none go to heaven unless through Christ, who MOST of the planet was not aware of.

Hence, most people go to hell, because, in this assumed scenario, they never heard of Christ.

Of course, that also assumes that every one who died before Christ did, went to hell...as, there was no Christ to get to heaven through.

If there's a "get out of hell free card" in this game, great....why doesn't it apply to those who were good people, but never heard of Christ, later on too?

What if they heard of him, the way you heard of Mohamed, and, as you were not convinced of Mohamed's sanctity, they were not convinced of Jesus's?

Is it FAIR to penalize them?

Is it JUST to penalize them?


If Mohamed IS the correct choice, and YOU just didn't buy it, and YOU go to hell because you accidentally chose the wrong god-guy...is that fair or just?

Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the same GOD. Christians believe that you ALSO have to believe that god magically impregnated a human female, who had a god-baby, AND, that you HAVE TO accept THAT CHILD as your lord and saviour to get to heaven/NOT be tortured for all eternity.

Why would a GOD make believing he had a baby with a human female, mandatory, and torture you FOREVER if you don't believe it?



What kind of MONSTER would set up a scenario like that?





Answer: A monster who's primary concern is that people won't believe in him, not the welfare of the people. Since recorded history, the enemy of mythology is reason. ORGANIZATIONS which would cease to exist if people realized they were self serving shams are the monster under the manger.




IF a god really cared for people, he would not create a scenario where most of the population of the planet would be eternally punished after they die.

If he wanted them to know something, say that he was really really really insecure, and not believing in him, despite his being the supreme ruler of the universe, really really pissed him off, so much, that he would burn non-believers for all eternity...

...he would simply do something that made sure that everyone knew that.

The old saws about making it difficult on purpose as a test is BS, as why make a test to filter out ANYONE?


IE: A Muslim raised to believe that adherence to Islam was being good in the eyes of god, and that belief in Christianity was being bad in the eyes of god...and lives a kind, generous life devoted to being a force for good in the world...is pretty much the same as a Christian who was raised to believe that adherence to Christianity was being good in the eyes of god, and that belief in Islam was being bad in the eyes of god...and lives a kind, generous life devoted to being a force for good in the world.

Both worship the same god, and, both are trying to be good people.

BOTH sides say the other side is just not getting the truth of THEIR side, which is the ONLY CORRECT SIDE.

BOTH sides essentially have the exact same rationale for believing what they believe.

WHY would a just and compassionate god penalize one or the other?

Because they came to the wrong conclusion?

Really?

Accidentally being raised to believe something is punishable by eternal torture?

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Old 01-15-2016, 03:05 PM #6467
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well I hesitate to say anything as this may also be controversial with everyone even among us Christians but if anyone doesn't like it they can go to hell. just joking. Ok I have said before that I was Buddhist for 2 - 3 years back in my mid 20's, I still think they have some of the correct pieces of the puzzle. I do believe in the law of cause and effect. The causes and their effects made in our past and present is what they call karma. We create our own present and future by the choices we make. The law of cause and effect empowers us and determines our future, as our actions can serve as a cause that will contribute to creating a better world, both for ourselves and for all around us, or it can do just the opposite or anything in between. There is some crossover of Buddhist beliefs with Christianity but not too much. They believe this law of cause and effect is one of the laws of nature, that it is built into the universe like the laws of physics. Buddhists are a peaceful and moral people, but this isn't based on the Ten Commandments, it is their belief that if you do something that harms others that it will eventually have an equal negative effect on your future, and the same if you do good things that benefit others, that too will have a positive effect on your future, so of course you want more good karma than bad karma.

Durring this time I discovered that some people I met were former athiests and maybe one or two still were, yet they had some belief in what some of you would consider supernatural, this never made sense to me at the time, it makes a little more sense to me now but still not too much, although I would say that the existence of spirit beings or non biological life or the existance of an afterlife isn't necessarily proof of God or intelligent design.

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Old 01-15-2016, 04:14 PM #6468
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
...some people I met were former athiests and maybe one or two still were, yet they had some belief in what some of you would consider supernatural...
Just as people are not necessarily protestant for good reasons, people are not necessarily atheist for good reasons. "It's the way I was brought up" for example. Although there may be some level of correlation to other supernatural beliefs, the label of atheism has nothing to do with them.

You'll find people that believe in Sasquatch but not alien abductions. You'll find people that believe in alien abductions but not Sasquatch. It's not an "all supernatural claims are true, or none of them are" affair.
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:39 PM #6469
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Wait there are people that don't believe in alien abductions?

I love the following passages in the Bible:
Romans 12:20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/e...erbs%2025%3A22
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:41 PM #6470
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I wish karma was the system in place. unless it's really slow acting or doesnt take effect until reincarntion, I'd say it's bogus. I see too many greedy evil people repeatedly making out like fat cats and really awesome people getting repeatedly screwed.

I was thinking, even if I do package everything nicely from now on, yall could still just then claim it's a silver tongue devil, so I might be in a no win position
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:48 PM #6471
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Just as people are not necessarily protestant for good reasons, people are not necessarily atheist for good reasons. "It's the way I was brought up" for example. Although there may be some level of correlation to other supernatural beliefs, the label of atheism has nothing to do with them.

You'll find people that believe in Sasquatch but not alien abductions. You'll find people that believe in alien abductions but not Sasquatch. It's not an "all supernatural claims are true, or none of them are" affair.
Yes that makes sense, I have even heard someone claim that Sasquatch are aliens like the Wookies and that they also abduct people. Am not making that up, heard it on a radio show, but that is too much even for me to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
Wait there are people that don't believe in alien abductions?
Yeah people should, I would even say the bible supports the idea, what happened to the prophet Elijah who was taken away by a chariot of fire, and they sent 50 men out to search for him for three days. Some people apparently witnessed this and wrote about it. Did God really take him from the earth? I wonder. And who were those sons of God in Genesis that came down to earth and decided they like our women? They came from somewhere, they weren't Angels they were flesh and blood like us because they had offspring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I wish karma was the system in place. unless it's really slow acting or doesnt take effect until reincarntion, I'd say it's bogus. I see too many greedy evil people repeatedly making out like fat cats and really awesome people getting repeatedly screwed.
I think it's slow, it can take until the next life but not necessarily. You know that one thing in common to nearly all religions is that we have both a spirit body and a physical body, and that upon death of your physical body your spirit body separates from the physical body and goes on living. Now what I am going go say is not specifically Christian or a Buddhist belief but I think I have a piece of the puzzle. I am sure you know that some people claim to be able to see a persons aura, and there is some energy around a persons body it can even be photographed. Well some people have a bright aura that extends some distance from the body and others are smaller and dark. This is because the spirit body carries energy and like the physical body it can be very weak or it can be very strong. Have you ever noticed that in very old artwork that Jesus and the apostles and other saintly people are often shown with a glow around them or a halo over their head? Maybe this isn't just made up, maybe it's do to karma, you do good things and are happy and love everyone then your spirit body gains more energy, you do bad things and hate people and your spirit body loses energy.

Of course I could be all wrong on this.

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Old 01-15-2016, 07:55 PM #6472
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If it could be photographed we could investigate it because results would be consistent. i could be wrong, but I dont think this is the case.

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reminds me of chakras. I've heard people claim wearing certain colors will charge the corrosponding chakra. if they can sense which is being given the boost, you'd think you could test this by blindfolding such individuals, putting various colored shirts on them, and have them correctly identify the color based on what chakra they feel being charged. I suspect this experiment would not work
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Old 01-15-2016, 08:44 PM #6473
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I hope this post isn't considered derailing or off-topic. If you think it is, my apologies and I can delete it.

I've been following this thread for a while. I find the discussions, viewpoints, and potential intersections on religions, aliens, metaphysics interesting. Googling these topics I frequently run across material on meditation, the pineal gland, and a substance called dimethyltryptamine or DMT. A documentary titled "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" has this in its story description:

"The Spirit Molecule investigates dimethyltryptamine (DMT), an endogenous psychoactive compound, which exists in humans and numerous species of plants and animals. The documentary traces Dr. Rick Strassman's government-sanctioned, human DMT research and its many trials, tribulations, and inconceivable realizations. A closer examination of DMT's effects through the lens of two traditionally opposed concepts, science and spirituality, The Spirit Molecule explores the connections between cutting-edge neuroscience, quantum physics, and human spirituality. "



I recall hearing of DMT the first time a couple years ago watching an hour long National Geographic special on TV/Cable. I remember there was concern by authorities of a trending new drug on the streets of Detroit where, in addition to typical drug users, gainfully employed people were doing DMT on their lunch breaks since it doesn't last long (only a few minutes), is extremely intense, and is reported to not be addicting. The video takes the position that the drug is dangerous. A user calls it the God Drug. This appears to be a snippet from the show I saw:

DMT: A PSYCHEDELIC NEW DRUG

So, anyone have personal experience or know people who have? Other opinions?

EDIT: It appears the word meditation created its own hyperlink. I don't know where that goes...

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Old 01-15-2016, 10:18 PM #6474
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OVNI View Post
I hope this post isn't considered derailing or off-topic. If you think it is, my apologies and I can delete it.

I've been following this thread for a while. I find the discussions, viewpoints, and potential intersections on religions, aliens, metaphysics interesting. Googling these topics I frequently run across material on meditation, the pineal gland, and a substance called dimethyltryptamine or DMT. A documentary titled "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" has this in its story description:

"The Spirit Molecule investigates dimethyltryptamine (DMT), an endogenous psychoactive compound, which exists in humans and numerous species of plants and animals. The documentary traces Dr. Rick Strassman's government-sanctioned, human DMT research and its many trials, tribulations, and inconceivable realizations. A closer examination of DMT's effects through the lens of two traditionally opposed concepts, science and spirituality, The Spirit Molecule explores the connections between cutting-edge neuroscience, quantum physics, and human spirituality. "



I recall hearing of DMT the first time a couple years ago watching an hour long National Geographic special on TV/Cable. I remember there was concern by authorities of a trending new drug on the streets of Detroit where, in addition to typical drug users, gainfully employed people were doing DMT on their lunch breaks since it doesn't last long (only a few minutes), is extremely intense, and is reported to not be addicting. The video takes the position that the drug is dangerous. A user calls it the God Drug. This appears to be a snippet from the show I saw:

DMT: A PSYCHEDELIC NEW DRUG

So, anyone have personal experience or know people who have? Other opinions?

EDIT: It appears the word meditation created its own hyperlink. I don't know where that goes...


The idea that supernatural/spiritual experiences are a form of hallucination has been widely acknowledged, especially as they can be chemically induced, and induced by conditions typically in near death experiences, etc.

And, yup, not all fruit cakes are the same mix of nuts...or not all nuts yield the same flavor of fruit cake....?

Some people are convinced of things that there is massive evidence against, and refuse to believe things there is massive evidence for...its how how we roll, as a species.

The guy who's convinced that the vids of planes hitting the towers on 911 are fakes, mocks the silly people who say they believe in the Loch Ness Monster. The People who are SURE a plesiosaur survived in Loch Ness all these millions of years, might think the people who say there's a big foot are coo coo.

People who think that Helen of Troy's mother was impregnated by a God, are laughed at by those who think that Jesus of Nazareth's mother was impregnated by a God....and so forth.

In more modern times, the crazy stuff simply requires the same proportional ignorance and confirmation bias of how the world works, to be able to spread as a belief.


Example:

Those who are unaware of the fairly recent glacier carving out Loch Ness, ~ 10,000 years ago, so that it did not yet exist back when it needed to, to strand a plesiosaur, or, well, anything, from that many millions of years ago...might think that one COULD be stranded in it.

But, if your confirmation bias (Faith) is strong enough, you can believe in Nessy anyway...even if its impossible because the Loch is ~ 10 thousand, not 10's of millions, of years old.

All a nut job needs to do is ignore evidence that is in conflict, and glom onto evidence that is supportive...and, voila, an unshakable faith.

Obviously, they don't KNOW they are doing it...or the jig would be up so to speak.

They are typically rock solid in their beliefs, no matter how ludicrous they may sound to others...and consider those who disagree with them to be naive fools "who just don't get it".

The Chem Trail group is one of the most entertaining if you are not bothered by those with beliefs you cannot fathom them holding...especially after watching you tube proof of their claims, etc.
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Old 01-17-2016, 01:50 AM #6475
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
The Chem Trail group is one of the most entertaining if you are not bothered by those with beliefs you cannot fathom them holding...especially after watching you tube proof of their claims, etc.
Which part of the Chem Trail group are you talking about?
Chem Trails are cloud seeding attempts.
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/weather/summary.htm
The Government admits they do it.
I see it here in Texas often. I can show you pictures of a checker-boarded sky that lasts for hours. Contrails are absolutely different than the cloud seeding silver iodide that is being sprayed in the air. Contrails dissipate fairly quickly. When they spray the sodium iodide it lasts a very very long time. I don't need to see any you tube video or conspiracy web site to see what is plainly evident. Maybe I'm not familiar with the part of a conspiracy your mean though.

I've read up about DMT. That sounds like the scariest drug in the world. Why would anyone want to try it?
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Old 01-17-2016, 07:48 PM #6476
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
Which part of the Chem Trail group are you talking about?
Chem Trails are cloud seeding attempts.
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/weather/summary.htm
The Government admits they do it.
I see it here in Texas often. I can show you pictures of a checker-boarded sky that lasts for hours. Contrails are absolutely different than the cloud seeding silver iodide that is being sprayed in the air. Contrails dissipate fairly quickly. When they spray the sodium iodide it lasts a very very long time. I don't need to see any you tube video or conspiracy web site to see what is plainly evident. Maybe I'm not familiar with the part of a conspiracy your mean though.

I've read up about DMT. That sounds like the scariest drug in the world. Why would anyone want to try it?
Contrails are the steam/long streams of cloud behind jets...Chem Trails are claimed to be contrails, and, that contrails are laced with mind control drugs...not normal cloud seeding, etc.

If all they claimed were that the exhaust emissions from jets in the US were dirtier than they could be...fine and dandy...but they claim conspiracies to poison the country, etc.


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...25&FORM=VRDGAR


http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...4C6D25&fsscr=0



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtr...spiracy_theory

Chemtrails Dissolve On Camera With Christ's Prayer Read The Description Before Watching


Chemtrails Dissolve On Camera With Christ's Prayer Read The Description Before Watching

Chemtrails Dissolve On Camera With Christ's Prayer Read The Description Before Watching

And so forth


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Old 01-17-2016, 09:35 PM #6477
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Photons have mass? I didn't know they were catholic.
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:52 PM #6478
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@Teej

Mind Control drugs hmmm... based on scientific data I'm sure. They wouldn't just make something up would they? They must have an air sample right?
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:35 AM #6479
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Religion to me are like old covered wagons, spirituality like traveling on a light wave... There is no comparison between the two as far as their righteousness, spirituality always wins, dogmas like the regurgitated expelled food of spirituality, I have a dog that does that in my yard for me nearly daily as it is, I don't need it.

Real spirituality comes from knowing yourself and how we each are part of the divine, this video speaks about it in many ways:



It's only a piece of it, just part, but I am in agreement; consciousness itself, the I'ness we each share is all the same I'ness, we have separate bodies, minds, and wills through the combination, but the spirit in each, in essence, identical and comes from the source.
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Old 01-18-2016, 01:30 AM #6480
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Photons have mass? I didn't know they were catholic.
LOL

This would be funnier if photons had mass...

So, I suppose that "let there be light!" did NOT mean, "let there be catholics!"

They do interpret that differently of course.
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