Old 01-05-2016, 09:25 PM #6433
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Shaken was not asking you to take his word for something, he was simply saying that he wasn't going to take OTHERS word for something without evidence.
I'm sorry, you miss my point. I did not think he was asking anyone to take his word for something. The arrogance is not in making these arguments and assuming that one is making a better argument. It is not about me. It is the assumption that the human mind is able to understand everything. No matter how hard we try and long we take there will be unknowns, things and concepts that we will not understand.

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It would only be arrogance if you claimed you WILL know it...
Yes, that is my point and if the universe operates DESPITE our imperfect understanding then this is the foundation of faith. But let me repeat, not the foundation of religion.

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Wanting information to support an opinion or viewpoint, and being willing to wait, is not arrogant.
Right. This is not even related to arrogance.

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Expecting OTHERS TO accept your viewpoint because YOU say its true, without proving it, is, on the other hand, arrogant.
Right again. But that is in essence the problem,no?


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Old 01-05-2016, 09:37 PM #6434
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
I'm sorry, you miss my point. I did not think he was asking anyone to take his word for something. The arrogance is not in making these arguments and assuming that one is making a better argument. It is not about me. It is the assumption that the human mind is able to understand everything. No matter how hard we try and long we take there will be unknowns, things and concepts that we will not understand.



Yes, that is my point and if the universe operates DESPITE our imperfect understanding then this is the foundation of faith. But let me repeat, not the foundation of religion.



Right. This is not even related to arrogance.



Right again. But that is in essence the problem,no?


You implied shake was arrogant for wanting evidence in order to accept something, no?


Faith has zero to do with how the universe works. It works whether we know how it works, or not.

We are simply trying to figure out how it works.

Wanting to know how something works is not arrogance....its curiosity.

Thinking that we one day might find out how it works is not arrogance.

We can know things that we find interesting, helpful, etc, without knowing everything.

So, sure, they MAY BE things we simply never know...but that list is being chipped away at daily.

To not look because its arrogant to want to try...doesn't make sense.

We try because we're human.

The first guy to find how to chip off parts of a rock to make it sharper...and then experimenting to find out how to make it even more usable....was pushing the boundaries that existed then.

We now know things about how the universe works that were simply beyond the abilities of our fathers.

Discoveries build upon the earlier discoveries....and, that means the pace accelerates over time.

We should be more adaptable than dinosaurs, and I think we can beat their reign time...and, given that we for example went from horse drawn carriages to discovering cosmic radiation confirming the big bang predictions in ~ 100 years...imagine what we can do in another hundred years.

Now imagine another thousand years.

10,000 years.

100,000 years...and so forth.

The dinosaurs lasted a few hundred million years...imagine what we'll know by then, assuming a rogue asteroid/comet doesn't take us out before we are on back-up planets, etc.

"We" may not look like "us"...that's a long time to evolve. But whatever we are by then should be mind mindbogglingly more aware of how the universe works than we are right now...just as we are mindbogglingly more aware than OUR ancestors were.





------------------


As for faith vs belief:

To me, you can believe something based upon evidence, or, without evidence.

If you HAVE evidence, you don't need faith TO believe it.


So, if your belief is based upon evidence, its simply a founded belief, founded upon the evidence.

If your belief is NOT based upon evidence, its simply a faith based belief...founded upon faith and not evidence.

---------------------------------



Quote:
Unless you have absolutely, undeniable, omnipotent knowledge then there is some component of trust that you will have to operate on.


I suppose the issue is, how one knows the degree of knowledge, appropriate to the question, to "trust" that you have the answer.

If you want the knowledge to be all powerful, (omnipotent), I'm not even sure what that would look like?

When you leave for work in the morning, do you have that degree of knowledge as to where you are going?

How sure do you need to be, say, to not need your GPS?

How sure are you that the satellites in geosynchronous orbit transmitting the time to your GPS are not controlled by a terrorist group who hacked into the system and is sending you to a soon to be explosion site?

Do you leave for work that day?

Do you trust that spacetime is a thing, and it can be warped, and that your GPS is properly accounting for the warping of spacetime in order to work properly?

What degree of certainty do you trust that relativity calculations were needed for your GPS to work properly?

HOW MUCH trust, is enough?


IE: Just because SOME degree of trust IS involved, in real life...it doesn't need to be 100% to be "A GOOD REASON".


So, lets say I am going to trust that if I step out of my front door, I will see my car...

And my neighbor, ShakeNBake, trusts that when HE steps out of HIS front door, he will see a unicorn...


BOTH of us DO have a degree of trust in our expectations.

Mine is based upon my car being there every morning...and while recognizing it might be stolen, etc...my expectation is that it will be there, and, there's historical evidence, a general lack of crime, and, the AMOUNT of trust needed is quite small, as there's evidence that indicates its a reasonable belief.

ShakeNBake's belief is based upon seeing a vision that made him feel the presence of unicorn, that filled him with a sense of awe and love, and an intense desire to spend hos life in the service of the unicorn...and the vision said it would be right outside hos front door.


So, we both have a degree of trust in what we expect to see.

I have an evidence based belief, so, I don't HAVE to have "Faith" that it will be there...perhaps confidence based upon repeated mornings of it being there.

ShakeNBake will say he too has an evidence based belief, as his vision was very real, and, very powerful, and he too might say he is as sure of the unicorn being there, as I am of the car being there.


On an offhand basis, I'm leaning towards my belief being TRUE, even if its not 100% likely, but, I'm maybe 99.9% sure its likely...and, if its NOT true, I expect that a natural cause, one that makes sense, will explain the car's absence. (Such as, it was stolen)

I'm also leaning towards ShakeNBake's unicorn not being there, and, towards there being no natural explanation for it. If the unicorn is not there, and there are no signs of it (Rainbow droppings, hoof prints, horn marks, etc...), I'd even be inclined to believe that HIS BELIEF was untrue, and, that he was wrong about the unicorn.

He might disagree of course.


So, the DEGREE of certainty Appropriate to the belief is the issue.









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Old 01-05-2016, 11:14 PM #6435
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'd object to being spoken for but teej did well.

will some things always be unknown? probably, impossible to say for sure. can we learn anything by studying it enough? perhaps not, but we seem to be making progress. we make tools that help us sense what our bodies can not. so much of what we find is so counter intuitive that we quickly learn our intuition cant be a reliable indicator. I apply the same philosophy to wonder at nature. it's tempting to be so blown away by it's complexity that you want to ascribe it to a conscious mind and plan. but if that's an intuitive response, which it might be for some, it's no reson to suspect it is correct. I would always rather admit ignorance than claim an uncertainty with certainty

I think I said why faith and belief were distinct. mirriam webster definition 2.b. for faith I think points to my arguement. pretty much all belief's definitions, but particularly 3, i think, establish the concepts as distinct. though they are related and can often be synonymous

Quote:
Unless you have absolutely, undeniable, omnipotent knowledge then there is some component of trust that you will have to operate on.
could you elaborate on this more? trust and faith are, again, a bit different. are you saying I need a complete understanding of the universe and existence to make it through the day, or that I need to trust in someone else's explanation of said things to make it through the day?

for duke:







I think that should about close the book on the subject though I've no doubt you'll disagree
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Old 01-06-2016, 12:55 AM #6436
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You implied shake was arrogant for wanting evidence in order to accept something, no?
No.

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Thinking that we one day might find out how it works is not arrogance
The arrogance is for assuming that we will be able to understand everything. It presumes that belief or faith can ultimately be removed by intellectual effort. No matter how long you specify, we are finite. No matter how sophisticated we are compared to the dinosaurs, there will always be horizons. These examples you give, to place our understanding in perspective, do not remove these limits. It just pushes them back. What comes across as arrogant and I'm speaking about our philosophy and not you personally, is that the sharper rock, the carriage and astronomy are all just milestones. The horizons will continue to exist and we will never reach a point where we can say with assurance that what lies beyond our understanding is just some pesky detail. It might underlie the entire framework of existence itself.

Quote:
could you elaborate on this more? trust and faith are, again, a bit different. are you saying I need a complete understanding of the universe and existence to make it through the day, or that I need to trust in someone else's explanation of said things to make it through the day?
I am saying that you do not need to understand everything or rely on someone else to take care of that for you, in order to get through the day. We accept an imperfect understanding of the universe and we survive. The pursuit of greater understanding can and does occur while we function with whatever level of understanding we have at this point. To have faith or to believe is part of our daily routine. To contemplate faith or believe in grand principals occurs less frequently, but this doesn't make less valid.

Religions formalize faith and or belief (I'm using these terms generally synonymously). Despite the baggage, they can provide some philosophical principals, but it is the philosophy itself that I find more satisfying. Of course, if you design churches or are running for office you might be more influenced by the secondary gain.
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:29 AM #6437
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
The arrogance is for assuming that we will be able to understand everything. It presumes that belief or faith can ultimately be removed by intellectual effort. No matter how long you specify, we are finite. No matter how sophisticated we are compared to the dinosaurs, there will always be horizons. These examples you give, to place our understanding in perspective, do not remove these limits. It just pushes them back. What comes across as arrogant and I'm speaking about our philosophy and not you personally, is that the sharper rock, the carriage and astronomy are all just milestones. The horizons will continue to exist and we will never reach a point where we can say with assurance that what lies beyond our understanding is just some pesky detail. It might underlie the entire framework of existence itself.



I am saying that you do not need to understand everything or rely on someone else to take care of that for you, in order to get through the day. We accept an imperfect understanding of the universe and we survive. The pursuit of greater understanding can and does occur while we function with whatever level of understanding we have at this point. To have faith or to believe is part of our daily routine. To contemplate faith or believe in grand principals occurs less frequently, but this doesn't make less valid.

Religions formalize faith and or belief (I'm using these terms generally synonymously). Despite the baggage, they can provide some philosophical principals, but it is the philosophy itself that I find more satisfying. Of course, if you design churches or are running for office you might be more influenced by the secondary gain.
I dont think that many people think they will ever understand everything. do you mean to imply that inserting a god into our gaps in knowledge is preferable to saying we don't know? are you implying the conclusion of a god's existence is inescapable whilst we know less than everything? even if we knew for sure it was a god, wouldnt that itself be a new horizon as you say? wouldnt that just beg the question of the god's origin and nature? can you explain how I must inescapably have faith in anything in my daily routine?
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Old 01-06-2016, 12:01 PM #6438
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Planter -

So you said it was arrogant to think we will know everything 100%...but, no one said we would.....except YOU.

No one in the thread that I saw said that they will know everything 100%, ever, anywhere.

All but the craziest nut cases who claim they talk to god, etc, might be some teeny percentage unsure if it is god or not, etc...or intellectually dishonest.

To maintain a belief in the supernatural, a certain degree of intellectual dishonesty is mandatory, but still, a teeny residual percentage would be projected.


So, as no one here said they will know everything, its hard to tell why you posted about arrogance as if it was in response to the post that you quoted?




Quote:
I have a strange mutation which requires that I don't believe something without reason, i see faith as, far from being a virtue, an impediment to truth and accuracy.

Your Reply:

One name for that mutation is arrogance. It is an assumption that given enough scrutiny you can understand anything/everything.


The most obvious interpretation of the above is that he said he didn't want to believe things without evidence or at least reason....and joked about it being a strange mutation....


and you then said the name of that mutation is arrogance.

THAT IS SAYING THAT WANTING EVIDENCE OR REASON IN ORDER TO ACCEPT A BELIEF IS ARROGANCE.


You then backpedal to clarify that you DIDN'T mean to say that, but, were ACTUALLY saying that you meant its arrogant to think we can know everything 100% with no question, etc....

..which is then without context, as how does that provide a name for wanting evidence that in turn = arrogance?


Its now too hard to tell what your point is, as no one thinks we will ever know 100% of everything to know...which has evolved into your windmill you're tilting at....yet you seem intent on insisting that you need to tell us what we already know as if we disagreed with that.

We TRIED to figure out what you might mean other than that, as that made no sense, by pointing out that we think TRYING to know as much as possible is a worthy cause, etc.


Did you want to drop the point, or, keep tilting?


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Old 01-06-2016, 03:04 PM #6439
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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So you said it was arrogant to think we will know everything 100%...but, no one said we would.....except YOU.

No one in the thread that I saw said that they will know everything 100%, ever, anywhere.

Relax... No one said we would, especially me. Your second sentence is at war with your first.


Quote:
its hard to tell why you posted about arrogance as if it was in response to the post that you quoted?

Because it IS arrogant to suppose that we CAN know everything. It seems that this word has upset you and that was not its purpose, but it is an accurate description of an assumption that the human mind can understand everything. Your examples of how human intelligence or capabilities are evolving and becoming more sophisticated suggests that pushing back the frontiers of understanding is the reason that there is no place for faith or belief. Or at least that it is becoming less relevant.

Quote:
I have a strange mutation which requires that I don't believe something without reason, i see faith as, far from being a virtue, an impediment to truth and accuracy.
This was the line I quoted and I got the joke. It is a little a little bit of a put down and maybe you don't see that?

Quote:
To maintain a belief in the supernatural, a certain degree of intellectual dishonesty is mandatory,
Dishonest? Really?

Quote:
You then backpedal to clarify that you DIDN'T mean to say that, but, were ACTUALLY saying that you meant its arrogant to think we can know everything 100% with no question, etc....
Backpedaled? Again, no, but clarify, yes. What I was actually saying was what I was actually saying.

Quote:
Its now too hard to tell what your point is, as no one thinks we will ever know 100% of everything to know...which has evolved into your windmill you're tilting at
The word arrogance has clearly upset you, but as I said this was not directed at you personally. Yet, the words condescending and cocky can be applied to your posts. You do not understand. That part is clear, but rather than being insulting you might contemplate this as an example that you can't know everything.

Shakenawake,

Quote:
I dont think that many people think they will ever understand everything. do you mean to imply that inserting a god into our gaps in knowledge is preferable to saying we don't know?
Good question. I don't suggest that we should insert God. I think we should allow for God because we should accept that the gaps in our knowledge are not just spaces yet to be filled in. Our finite nature is axiomatic.

Quote:
are you implying the conclusion of a god's existence is inescapable whilst we know less than everything?
No, absolutely not. That in itself would suggest that everything beyond the limits of our understanding is filled with God. We don't know. Atheism and theism are two sides of the same coin. An agnostic goes about his daily routine with an open mind about the existence of God.
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Old 01-06-2016, 03:38 PM #6440
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
Relax... No one said we would, especially me. Your second sentence is at war with your first.





Because it IS arrogant to suppose that we CAN know everything. It seems that this word has upset you and that was not its purpose, but it is an accurate description of an assumption that the human mind can understand everything. Your examples of how human intelligence or capabilities are evolving and becoming more sophisticated suggests that pushing back the frontiers of understanding is the reason that there is no place for faith or belief. Or at least that it is becoming less relevant.



This was the line I quoted and I got the joke. It is a little a little bit of a put down and maybe you don't see that?



Dishonest? Really?



Backpedaled? Again, no, but clarify, yes. What I was actually saying was what I was actually saying.



The word arrogance has clearly upset you, but as I said this was not directed at you personally. Yet, the words condescending and cocky can be applied to your posts. You do not understand. That part is clear, but rather than being insulting you might contemplate this as an example that you can't know everything.

Shakenawake,



Good question. I don't suggest that we should insert God. I think we should allow for God because we should accept that the gaps in our knowledge are not just spaces yet to be filled in. Our finite nature is axiomatic.



No, absolutely not. That in itself would suggest that everything beyond the limits of our understanding is filled with God. We don't know. Atheism and theism are two sides of the same coin. An agnostic goes about his daily routine with an open mind about the existence of God.


Got it.

You were telling us what we all already knew, as though we disagreed, and, I'm cocky....and, you come across that way too, so, We are alike in that way I suppose.




As for assuming that if there are gaps in knowledge, they might be filled by god, so, you should have an open mind....

OK, if we follow that argument...which god?

Which gaps?

Unless we check, how do we KNOW if it IS a gap? After we see if there is some missing knowledge, how do we know if we CAN fill it, or not?

For example, lets say we find a fossil of a dinosaur feather...can we tell what color the feather was by an imprint of it?

The answer used to be no...and, now, its yes.

If we have to keep our minds open to the possibility of a gap having a supernatural explanation...how many supernatural explanations would you recommend?

You have your god, obviously, but what about the thousands of OTHER gods? What about fairies, and elves, and trolls, and gremlins?

What about sprites?

What about Elvis back from the grave?

Unicorns? Should we keep an open mind that missing knowledge may be explained by unicorns?

An open mind doesn't have to look like a bottle, where everything poured in gets to stay.

It might be more like a sieve, where some stuff is filtered out, and the rest goes through.


So, how would you recommend we ACT UPON your suggestion?

Do we stop seeking knowledge, or, when seeking it, take the time to see if a unicorn or Elvis might work as an explanation?

Is that what you had in mind?

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Old 01-06-2016, 05:07 PM #6441
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

well, allowing for the possibility is much different than acting like it's already been determined. no mystery uncovered which was formerly attributed to the supernatural has ever turned out to be actually supernatural. given this fact, should we become less and less expectant of uncovering a god's existence?

so planters, is your contention then that it's impossible for a human to know everything?

I cant answer that question, because, shocker, I dont know everything. as such, I don't know if there exists knowledge I am fundementally incapable of comprehending. how does this possibility change anything?
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:31 PM #6442
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
1) LOL

No, that makes it subjective not objective. If impacted by worldview, its subjective.
Discussing why something is objective doesn't change it's objectivity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I believe it answered the question.
Then please clearly answer it without a rant.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
so christians, in the pabable describing faith, jesus likens it to a seed planted by a sower. some are picked by birds, having fallen by the wayside, some land on rocky ground. some land among thorns. which one am I?
I don't know enough about you to know which but my uneducated guess would be seed among thorns. You keep posting your "issues" with scripture, some are good reasonable questions which do have reasonable answers. Yet in this post you're "issues" are very basic misunderstandings of the text. I doubt you would purposely try to twist context like this so I have to assume it's plain ignorance. It's disheartening to see your hatred for Christianity and absolute sureness of it's falsehood is hung on such misunderstandings.

Christianity is hung on two questions.
1) Does God exist?
2) Is Jesus who we said he was?

If you can answer those two negatively then there is no need to go further.

Here is a decent resource that may be helpful to you if you wish to look into any of your "issues" with scripture.

http://www.gotquestions.org/
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Old 01-06-2016, 08:57 PM #6443
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Discussing why something is objective doesn't change it's objectivity.

This is not relevant to the discussion...it a priori.

The real issue is NOT that saying that something is objective when its subjective also doesn't change it...but, by DEFINITION, if a worldview changes the interpretation, its subjective....not objective.

That is not an opinion, its what the word MEANS.







Christianity is hung on two questions.
1) Does God exist?
2) Is Jesus who we said he was?

If you can answer those two negatively then there is no need to go further.

Here is a decent resource that may be helpful to you if you wish to look into any of your "issues" with scripture.

Bible Questions Answered

What do you mean by "No Need to Go Further?"

Does that mean that if your opinion is not accepted as fact, you don't want to discuss it further?

For example, atheists do not believe in supernatural beings called gods.

So, for "Does God Exist?", most would say no, or, potentially, that they don't believe that god exists, based upon the evidence available.

As for who Jesus saying who he is...we have no writings of Jesus. We only have things others said that Jesus said.

Sometimes these are in conflict with each other, and, all appear to have been written many decades or even centuries after the time period that the alleged Jesus was supposed to have lived during.

Historically, Jesus's alleged birth place didn't even exist at the time it needed to, to be where he was allegedly from, based upon the descriptions in the bible, etc.

So, he seems to be a composite character, created by the Catholic Church.

So, the question becomes along the lines of asking if Popeye is who he says he is, etc...except what Popeye was supposed to have said was said centuries earlier...and someone who used to know Bluto's grand dad or Wimpy's, is telling the story.


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Old 01-06-2016, 09:08 PM #6444
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What do you mean by "No Need to Go Further?"

Does that mean that if your opinion is not accepted as fact, you don't want to discuss it further?
Do you think that's what I meant? By my posts here is that reasonable to assume?
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:31 PM #6445
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Do you think that's what I meant? By my posts here is that reasonable to assume?
So, what did you mean?


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Old 01-06-2016, 09:43 PM #6446
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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we should accept that the gaps in our knowledge are not just spaces yet to be filled in.
I think I know what you meant to say, but this statement is nothing short of crazy.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:01 PM #6447
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
we should accept that the gaps in our knowledge are not just spaces yet to be filled in.

Quote:
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I think I know what you meant to say, but this statement is nothing short of crazy.

Its hard to uncrazy it, really...unless its, again, something that didn't need to be said in the first place.


The basic statement, as written, is apparently trying to express that the gaps in our knowledge should be accepted as not necessarily having future data to fill into them.

If it didn't need to be said, its simply a statement that we, again, may not ever know everything...which no one cogent enough disagrees with, given especially in an infinite universe, there will be an infinite amount of places to learn about, etc.

If its a useless point, as no one will be able to act differently based upon it, then, if implying action should be based upon it...its crazy/at a minimum / a catastrophically bad idea.

As mentioned earlier, in a few different ways...the problem with it as a useful point, is that:

1) We know that we will not fill every gap....Doh

2) We have no way of knowing which gaps will never be filled...or even if we'll ever know about all the gaps, period.

3) We will not, therefore, ever need to accept that some gaps won't be filled with data, as, that is not an actionable concept...and, we would act the same as if we will fill every gap with data...BECAUSE we will never know which gaps to not try to fill.

4) Every gap in knowledge is therefore equally empty, until its filled. We also have the option of re-filling/stuffing more into some gaps with BETTER or ADDITIONAL information when available.

5) As the only available actions are to try to fill gaps, or, to not try to fill gaps...we EITHER choose to suspend all intellectual and scientific curiosity, and choose to leave gaps empty because we can't fill ALL of them...or, we simply continue to fill gaps as we go, as mankind has done since all of available history.

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Old 01-06-2016, 10:35 PM #6448
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

no duke, i understand the text well enough. when the bible tells me that god kills the innocent, like babies, it disgusts me. when it says he sends people to hell for not accepting christ, even if the people never had a chance to hear about christ, it disgusts me. if you could convince me the bible was true you'd have an even harder time convincing me to align with god, a being I have determined to be deviod of consistency and compassion. at least devoid of compassion enough of the time to make a difference.

this god, who supposedly doesnt tempt us, put the object he most wanted adam to leave alone RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GARDEN. I'm sure any parent would agree that putting a bowl of candy in the center of a child's play area and telling them to leave it alone doesnt constitute temptation, but anyway. god was so eager to do some punishing that he made the first mistake made punishable by death, not just of adam, but of all his descendants as well, forever. infinite punishment for a finite crime, and punishing those who could not influence the crime. like in north korea, the only country I think that currently imprisons families for their relative's crimes. you christians should find no more fault with kim jong-un than with god. and if god really does know the future, he knew man kind would screw up by his standards, and so must have been so eager to do some punishing that he followed through anyway. really I don't know how anything could ever disappoint him if he controls everything and knows the future, yet there are bible verses where he regrets doing stuff. so from the onset, i reject the premise that god is perfect or perfectly just or perfectly good and loving. I have realized his nature is much more capricious and sadistic, and I dont want to ally with that. in this sense, burning me in hell would only serve to martyr me, I'd rather do that than serve such an egotistical maniac obsessed with being praised and worshipped constantly. strikes me as very insecure for being all powerful.

speaking of descendants inheriting sin, how could Jesus be a perfect sin free sacrifice if he was born of Mary? presumably Mary carried original sin, so why didn't christ inherit it from her? further more, how does killing an innocent absolve your wrong? to me, that just adds one more wrong. why does god require death and blood as payment? why kill poor little doves to cure leprosy instead of telling humans about the causes of disease? surely you christians dont beleive it's the act alone that does the curing? is it? or is it just an act to show obedience and faith to god, and he just uses magic to cure you as reward for your devotion? if so, couldnt he have chosen a different arbitrary act and left the poor birds alone? maybe It's just because I'm a big bird lover

something I've been wondering about. i'm guessing that every christian knows at least one person that they really care about and love but know is destined for hell. will you be able to enjoy heaven, knowing these people are being tortured forever? will this be the one downside in what would otherwise be paradise? or do you think god will wipe their memory from you to solve the issue? or can you live perfectly happily knowing that souls of many infants and native people who never heard of christ are facing never ending suffering?
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