Old 01-05-2016, 12:48 AM #6417
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You probably didn't pray enough because no amount would change the mind of an omniscient being who knew what he was going to do before you suggested or begged him to do differently.

You probably didn't spend more time in church because things that actually mattered took precedence.

You probably didn't give more money to the collection plate because you could not afford to without sacrificing funds needed for things that took precedence.

IE: Real life, and responsibilities to your family and self actualization were prioritized over sacrifices to an omnipotent being
No Teej.

I didn't pray enough because I'm not that strong a Christian.

I didn't attend church much because it's difficult to find a true Bible teaching church, one that doesn't preach to the itching ears of it's congregation.

I didn't give enough because of my selfishness, I had enough to spend on my telescopes, on my huge laser collection, on my multiple cameras and lenses.

You see I have a lot of faults that I need to address still.

Andrew


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Old 01-05-2016, 01:02 AM #6418
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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you're right. i awaken to discover I have self awareness. an insatiable curiosity about the universe. the ability to experience emotions. I discover others around me with the same ability, but different perspective. but you know what? with no magic sky daddy to tell me what to do and let me live forever for being a good boy and not questioning him, what's the point? you're totally right, I'll just go blow my brains out now, I mean, if my existence/actions doesnt matter forever, why should it matter for even one more second? it took billions of years for a mind to develop with the ability to gaze out into the cosmos and wonder about it's future and fate, and possibly for the first time, do something about it. better squander this gift since it might not matter and was just dumb luck anyway

what a daft question
Appealing to Ridicule without answering the question.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
one thing the film and people in it forgot to mention was that it was god who hardened the pharaoh's heart. so much for free will.
It's inconsistent for a naturalist to believe in "free will", it's an illusion under that view.


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Objectivity is independent of worldviews, is it not?
Yes, but different worldviews will have different support or lack thereof for objectivity.


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I just want to respond to this one question/statement: It matters now, that's more than enough reason to me.
I'm not sure there is even a label for what you believe So how do you justify this view?
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Old 01-05-2016, 01:37 AM #6419
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
No Teej.

I didn't pray enough because I'm not that strong a Christian.

I didn't attend church much because it's difficult to find a true Bible teaching church, one that doesn't preach to the itching ears of it's congregation.

I didn't give enough because of my selfishness, I had enough to spend on my telescopes, on my huge laser collection, on my multiple cameras and lenses.

You see I have a lot of faults that I need to address still.

Andrew

You are such a nice guy, I'd love it if you could free up the funds to do what you really love/are interested in, instead of throwing it into a plate to feed your hungry god.

You didn't mention any real faults, merely compromises made to help you find happiness.

You were convinced that the church was the only place to find it...and felt guilty that you also found happiness looking up at the stars.

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Old 01-05-2016, 04:15 AM #6420
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What is a naturalist?
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Old 01-05-2016, 04:46 AM #6421
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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If the other choices are all right...there might be 100's of religions you should believe in, just in case ONE OF THEM is actually right.
This strikes me a little like... "do you believe in global warming?"

A person doesn't take on a belief like putting on a shirt. If you believe in something you accept that it is true without requiring rigorous proof. For example, I believe Bill did rape that woman even though I did not speak to her, see him attacking her or review the pictures. There is enough circumstantial evidence, his personality is consistent with this act and she is one of many who accused him of ***ual aggression. The same holds for faith. You have reasons to accept, let's say a deity because of your observations of the world over many years are consistent with, for example, intelligent design.

Atheism is a belief as is a belief in God. Agnosticism is the closest that a philosophy comes to denying belief. But, I do not mean to disparage belief; there is nothing wrong with belief. We do it every day. No one could function if every single decision required all operational assumptions to be rigorously proven. People are told not to discriminate, it's not politically correct. But, without discrimination, it would be impossible to order lunch or to get married (happily). People should not be aggressive... and so on. My point is balance. All these characteristics have value, but there must be balance. To hold no beliefs is to be mechanistic. A computer has no beliefs.
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Old 01-05-2016, 04:54 AM #6422
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

All of that said, belief is a poor substitute for knowledge. Some claim to have direct experience of spiritual matters and from that they do not believe, they know, at least, from a limited perspective.
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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 01-05-2016, 05:18 AM #6423
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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No Teej.

I didn't pray enough because I'm not that strong a Christian.

I didn't attend church much because it's difficult to find a true Bible teaching church, one that doesn't preach to the itching ears of it's congregation.

I didn't give enough because of my selfishness, I had enough to spend on my telescopes, on my huge laser collection, on my multiple cameras and lenses.

You see I have a lot of faults that I need to address still.

Andrew
RB astro you should be ashamed of yourself! just joking, you are the same as most everyone else.

As for it being difficult to find a true Bible teaching church, yes that is true now everywhere, in fact that's why I stopped attending church and mostly study and pray on my own, I used to watch lots of Christian TV but I have a problem with much of that too. Most churches have strayed far from original Christianity. Christianity is more divided now that ever. There is a reason I became nondenominational, I also was a Buddhist for several years about 25 years ago and they too have a piece of the puzzle and I learned much from them. Not original Buddhism but Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism. I received my Gohonzon and I also should still have a diploma packed away in a box somewhere showing that I reached a certain level of study and passed some very difficult tests. I am also a Bodhisattva, so maybe I should have stayed with them so they could partake of my infinite wisdome, but that was not my destiny. My father was originally Catholic but he became a Mason while in the military, he went on to become a 32nd degree mason. Time for a break here be right back.



When I was born my family moved to a small town called Walla Walla, not a good place and not a place we were meant to be. Some LDS missionaries knocked on the door one day and invited them to church, my family joined the church except for my father. At first I wasn't interested and didn't know what to think, but when I was 8 years old I experienced something that led me to believe there is an afterlife so I became more open minded, I was baptized at the age of 9, I was ordained into the priesthood at the age of 12 as a Deacon and was promoted to Teacher later, I never made it to Priest, you have to be over 16, that's about the time I learned something was wrong there and left.

I probably wouldn't have shared this with all of you but my life here is nearing its end. I hope I have several years left here but I am not certain of that.

Alan
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:48 AM #6424
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I believe it answered the question. i just think it should be plenty obvious that we have innumerable reasons to exist and act even if there is no god, especially if there isnt. our actions may not matter trillions of years from now but why would that even be a factor in deciding? duke, you seem to think non believers should conclude that life is pointless and then do what exactly?

by all means, explain to me why I can't believe in free will. I'm not sure that I fit the definition, naturalist. I allow for the possibility that a god made everything, but I cant prove it so cant be sure one way or the other. even if a god did do it, I'd still like to discover how and why. might sound agnostic but I call myself atheist because there are no gods proposed by men that I believe in. doesnt mean i think there is a god, but I allow for the possibility. there's too much we don't understand to be sure about that. however, claims of these various religious texts do give us plenty reason to doubt in their proposed gods

so I can't believe in free will, I guess, but how do you believe in it if god can go against that when he pleases? how do you know your actions are your own volition and that you arent some robot following his plan? did Judas have the free will not to betray jesus, or did he have to because it was god's plan? do you think it's simultaneously possible for god to have created you, and know exactly every choice you will ever make, yet still claim you have free will? because to me that sounds like a preprogrammed robot

you guys sound like my mother with your talk of going to a church that teaches the bible accurately instead of pandering to the congregation. so you guys are certainly the hardcore christians, not the fakish ones. I was as well at one point. the problem is, many do think they are teaching accurately just as much as you. doesnt the fact that christianity only becomes more divided and cant agree on basic tenants mean god did a piss poor job of clarifying it? he must be ok with this division. so much for not being the author of confusion. why don't christians believe the bible is divinely protected from alteration, like the muslims believe about the quran?

planters, belief and faith are distinct concepts and you are confusing them. you can believe something either from faith or from having good reason and evidence. I have a strange mutation which requires that I don't believe something without reason, i see faith as, far from being a virtue, an impediment to truth and accuracy. faith to me is very similar to gullible. I'm not sure why god delights in it so much. atheism isnt a belief, it's a lack therof. or would you say that a-leprechaun-ism and a-toothfairy-ism are beliefs also?

speaking of faith, in the bible it says if you posses just a little faith you can tell a mountain to cast itself into the sea and it will. any believers care to demonstrate for me? I'd like superpowers of my own and seeing you use yours would help me believe I can do it too. (mattew 21:21) he goes on to say you will get anything you pray for if you have faith. so christians, who among you has gotten everything you ever prayed for without exception?

in the sentence, " You have reasons to accept, let's say a deity because of your observations of the world over many years are consistent with, for example, intelligent design." i think too often observation should be replaced with confirmation bias. when I was a believer , I thought I had some experiences that indicated god. but upon an honest examination I had to admit to myself that it was probably coincidence and wishful thinking. obviously some people really believe they have encountered god, but many stories I hear christians give remind me of my experience and if they thought a little more, they'd realize a simpler explanation.

so christians, in the pabable describing faith, jesus likens it to a seed planted by a sower. some are picked by birds, having fallen by the wayside, some land on rocky ground. some land among thorns. which one am I?
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:57 AM #6425
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have so little value in faith or belief, only placing value on knowledge or knowing something for yourself, yet unless you believe there is something to find, you won't likely seek to find it and know for yourself, this is such a paradox to me in some ways.
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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 01-05-2016, 10:23 AM #6426
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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I have so little value in faith or belief, only placing value on knowledge or knowing something for yourself, yet unless you believe there is something to find, you won't likely seek to find it and know for yourself, this is such a paradox to me in some ways.
Its not really a paradox at all.

Lots of discoveries are made without looking for them, or, when looking for something ELSE.

America for example, or Saran Wrap.

The other non-paradoxical factor is simply being able to understand the difference between a hypothesis and a null hypothesis, in practice.


Faith typically means a tendency for confirmation bias.

A poor (POOR) research study for example can involve gathering data, and then sifting through it to look for patterns or evidence that might support a position or hypothesis...and then publish a conclusion.

A good (GOOD) research study might then try to prove the null hypothesis, and try to find ways to DISPROVE what they are thinking might be the right answer.


That is because the effort to prove yourself wrong can compensate for a normal bias to want to be right.

Most people, due to human nature, do not do this. They want to be right badly enough that they only look at what supports what they believe...and see no point in "Proving the other side's point", etc.

Scientists (the real ones), in order to function properly in their fields, try to prove that they are wrong, to prove that they are right....or to stop wasting their lives on a futile endeavor.

IE: If they can't find an argument that defeats their hypothesis, they are more sure that it is correct.

They can STILL be wrong of course, but its more honest intellectually, and, avoids a lot of theories that work fine to explain one thing, but then are contradicted by other information.


So when a hypothesis is developed, say, the big bang, they then say, OK, IF this IS true, what ELSE should also be going on/true? What ELSE CAN'T be true if this is true?

They then see if anything that should be the case, isn't, and if anything that can't be the case, is.

In the above case for example, one thing that should have been the case was a cosmic echo of the bang, a background radiation comes from all directions, has a uniform temperature across the universe, follows a blackbody spectrum, and peaks at a few degrees above absolute zero, corresponding to microwave wavelengths.

Some guys at Bell Labs (Go Jersey) were working on a radio antenna for NASA, and were getting this weird interference.

They kept trying to get rid of it, cleaning, retuning, etc...but, they kept getting it, and it seemed to come from everywhere, at very homogeneous very low temperatures.

They asked some other scientists for help fixing their problem...and those HELPING, realized that what they were finding (In ~ the 1960's) was that background radiation....

...and commenced studies to see if the other parameters matched, or didn't.

They then did other studies to disprove it, but, the data did not disprove it, and supported the finding, which was replicated by other studies, compared to theoretical predictions, and, so far, is our best match to the data.


So, no, you do not have to be looking for something to find it.

Sometimes the apple finds Newton. Sometimes the fig.





--------------------------------

As for the old tripe about "atheism being a belief"...its not.

Otherwise, Not being a Muslim is a religion...and not collecting stamps is a hobby.


A, as a prefix, means without.

Theism means a belief in god or gods.

Atheism, means without a belief in god or gods.


So, for the record, Atheism is NOT A BELIEF, or a religion...its not having one.


If someone wanted to insist that atheism is a religion, and, if that same someone believed in, say, Christianity, that person would then have to also consider that their religion is: "Not Believing in Thor", and, "Not believing in Odin" and "Not Believing in Tooth Fairies" and so on and so forth ad infinitum.

As that is nonsensical...it makes more sense to say atheism is the lack of religion, or lack of belief in supernatural powers, rather than being a religion...if you must use the word religion or belief.

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Old 01-05-2016, 11:00 AM #6427
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post

1) Yes, but different worldviews will have different support or lack thereof for objectivity.




2) I'm not sure there is even a label for what you believe So how do you justify this view?

1) LOL

No, that makes it subjective not objective. If impacted by worldview, its subjective.


2) Existentialism is the label you didn't know existed. Justification is simply based upon the present being the only time period you can exert influence upon. You only exist in the present. You cannot change what already happened...but you can respond to it. You cannot control the future, but, your actions in the present lead to it...and you can act accordingly.

In the context of this thread, living your life as if its the only one you get would be a simplified answer.

Those who believe in life after death, and also assume its better to be dead (heaven, etc), or that they have to observe rituals, etc, to avoid death being eternal torture (hell, etc) waste/spend a lot of time effort and money, etc, on that gamble.

A person who was going to be good without the threat of punishment, such as most atheists, etc, just live their lives as good people w/o adding in unnecessary rituals.

Those who live their lives as bad people, such as those in prison, etc, tend to cling to the idea that all they have to do is accept Jesus and they can still go to heaven.....so Christianity is very popular in the prison systems for example.

A person can be good or bad regardless of whether they believe in a particular god or gods, as that belief obviously has nothing to do with their actual behaviour. IE: Christians are equally to over represented in the US prison population, whereas atheists are extremely under represented. (Compared to the total populations of each)





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Old 01-05-2016, 11:50 AM #6428
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Studies indicate that about 4.7% of the Catholic Church's budget goes to charity.

The rest is to pay the ~ million employees' salaries and benefits, maintenance and upkeep of all of their massive real estate holdings, etc.

Most of what's collected on the collection plates in individual churches goes to maintaining the churches themselves, paying the utilities, and so forth.

So, if you want to give to charity, giving to the church is about the least efficient way to do it.

Your taxes already provide about 62% of the US church income*, as they pay no taxes, but receive subsidies and grants. The tax base of your town is reduced, so you have to pay more local taxes if you have churches, instead of houses or businesses where they put churches.

Potentially NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bObItmxAGc





* Economist 2012

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Old 01-05-2016, 03:49 PM #6429
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
planters, belief and faith are distinct concepts and you are confusing them.
No, I do not think I am. You fail to establish the distinction. You have glossed over my example. Unless you have absolutely, undeniable, omnipotent knowledge then there is some component of trust that you will have to operate on. To have faith that everything outside your present perspective does not exist in a foam of chaos is reasonable. To believe this is true is reasonable. Faith is not unreasonable. Faith or belief that extends further and further from the foundation of observable fact becomes fantasy and further yet, madness.

I am impressed that there is a tendency to confuse religion and all the trappings of the many formalized systems built upon faith and the faith itself. There is a huge divide here and religion is the source of most of the criticism that is then reflected back to faith. What the hell does the charitable efficiency of the Catholic church have to do with faith? It is an indictment of the Catholic church, but the church did not create belief or faith; it lives off of it.

Quote:
I have so little value in faith or belief, only placing value on knowledge or knowing something for yourself, yet unless you believe there is something to find, you won't likely seek to find it and know for yourself, this is such a paradox to me in some ways.
Quote:
So, no, you do not have to be looking for something to find it.
But it helps. And I agree that although you may not find what you are looking for, what you find may prove even more interesting. Yet, there is a balance. You need to trust that something can be known to spend the effort to look and at the same time remain skeptical of what you think you know or believe.

Quote:
I have a strange mutation which requires that I don't believe something without reason, i see faith as, far from being a virtue, an impediment to truth and accuracy.
One name for that mutation is arrogance. It is an assumption that given enough scrutiny you can understand anything/everything.
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:52 PM #6430
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
And I agree that although you may not find what you are looking for, what you find may prove even more interesting. Yet, there is a balance. You need to trust that something can be known to spend the effort to look and at the same time remain skeptical of what you think you know or believe.

One name for that mutation is arrogance. It is an assumption that given enough scrutiny you can understand anything/everything.
To find the truth one must be willing to follow the trail to wherever it leads, even if it leads to someplace that you don't like. Most people are not willing to do this.

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Old 01-05-2016, 08:17 PM #6431
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by planters View Post


One name for that mutation is arrogance. It is an assumption that given enough scrutiny you can understand anything/everything.


It would only be arrogance if you claimed you WILL know it...

Saying "I don't know, but I will try to find out, or, wait for others who do that sort of thing for a living to try to find out the answer" is NOT arrogance.

Wanting information to support an opinion or viewpoint, and being willing to wait, is not arrogant.

Expecting OTHERS TO accept your viewpoint because YOU say its true, without proving it, is, on the other hand, arrogant.

Shaken was not asking you to take his word for something, he was simply saying that he wasn't going to take OTHERS word for something without evidence.




-------------


In real life, the difference in use between confidence and arrogance is typically based upon whether you like the person its ascribed to.




As for the charitable contribution of the catholic church, the CONTEXT was our buddy RB saying he wished he'd put more in the collection plate...vs the proposal that he could contribute to more worthy causes, just as he could spend more time looking at the heavens and less time worrying about if he'll get into heaven, etc.


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Old 01-05-2016, 08:18 PM #6432
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
To find the truth one must be willing to follow the trail to wherever it leads, even if it leads to someplace that you don't like. Most people are not willing to do this.

Alan

A wise statement.

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