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Old 01-01-2016, 11:06 PM #6385
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You are assuming that our existence mandates anything.
Duke: Is the existence of human life objectively good?
T: If you mean for us, then yes, because our job is to flourish.

Clarify, it looks a lot like you're saying our existence mandates that it is our job to flourish.

Why is it our job to flourish?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Speaking to my worldview using the meaning of the words I use, yes, some actions are objectively good for the human condition.
Yes answers the question, thank you. Although -

"some actions are objectively good for the human condition"

This doesn't answer the why. This is a true statement I agree with but it only speaks to "some actions" not to our existence.


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Old 01-01-2016, 11:16 PM #6386
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Duke: Is the existence of human life objectively good?
T: If you mean for us, then yes, because our job is to flourish.

Clarify, it looks a lot like you're saying our existence mandates that it is our job to flourish.

Why is it our job to flourish?




Yes answers the question, thank you. Although -

"some actions are objectively good for the human condition"

This doesn't answer the why. This is a true statement I agree with but it only speaks to "some actions" not to our existence.

Thanks, could you go back and address the parts that probably appeared after you replied?



All species' job is to flourish, otherwise, it would cease to exist.

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Old 01-02-2016, 12:33 AM #6387
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Had some questional chinese food last night and boy did my stomach flourish in pain.
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Old 01-02-2016, 04:06 AM #6388
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If you believe the universe will eventually meet an end, why will anything you have done mattered. If you're hoping the universe is eternal, your hope for humanity is also subjective, if someone else has a completely selfish attitude toward morality, due to the subjective nature of your worldview their views are no better or worse than your views. Also, assuming you're a naturalist, why do humans have any intrinsic value at all, being just accidents of matter.



You would be very pleased with the scientific approach in that documentary. Also that city hasn't been rebuilt, the ruins are still there and the modern day Tyre hasn't been built over the ruins.




And we've already been over what I think. -> In the naturalistic worldview objective morals and duties to not exist.

Your recap still has a problem within naturalism.

Why is improving the human condition objectively good.
yes, parts of modern tyre are built over the ruins, but the prophesy fails in other respects

Christian apologist claim this was foretold by Ezekiel.—Ezekiel 26:4, 12. However, many scholars note that the prophecy in Ezekiel is not fulfilled for many reasons. For example, Ezekiel 26:19 claims "vast waters cover you", but in fact there is more land area for Tyre today than there was at the time of the prophecy. Furthermore, the prophecy claims in Ezekiel 26:21 that " you [Tyre] will be sought, but you will never again be found". Archaeologists know both the ancient and modern boundaries of Tyre.

I dont need my actions to matter after the universe dies or goes on without me, that they matter now is all that matters to me. why are you so important that you deserve to matter forever? and yes, my views would be better because being subjective doesnt mean equal valued as well. we have a sort of moral gradient, subjective as it might be. some actions are, usually by consensus, determined to be more moral than others. neat huh? you should learn about it sometime

your characterization of humans as "accidents of matter" implies that your understanding of evolution is wrong. mutations are random, though not even nesessarily accidental. accidental implies it had another purpose which did not happen. mutations are random, but natural selection is not. also, organisms build on success, so they dont need to get all their parts at once, fully formed. irreducible complexity has been thouroughly debunked

i kinda doubt I would be pleased. do they start by saying, we believe the exodus story, lets see if we can find supporting evidence, or do they go dig around in egypt, find evidence, and ask, what does this mean, having never presupposed the bible to be true? i saw part of the trailer, which mentioned skewing historical dates to make their narrative fit. doesnt sound like science to me. I could be wrong, I just doubt it very much. but that's the difference now isnt it? i allow a level of uncertainty to allow new information. christians are rigidly forbidden to do this, they must be certain that the bible is true. if reality conflicts, it must be a problem with reality, not the bible. or a misunderstanding of the bible. the bible can never be wrong, even when it says thing that we know 100% are not true.

I think many would argue humans do not have intrinsic value. but even if we dont, I'm ok with extrinsic value

time for funny. bible strory time kids. I loved these:





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Old 01-02-2016, 09:53 AM #6389
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I only watched the first video and I find it disgusting and offensive so I didn't bother to watch the other two. However since you are an atheist I don't blame you for posting such garbage, and I support your right to do so. I do however have a problem with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I dont need my actions to matter after the universe dies or goes on without me, that they matter now is all that matters to me. why are you so important that you deserve to matter forever? and yes, my views would be better because being subjective doesnt mean equal valued as well. we have a sort of moral gradient, subjective as it might be. some actions are, usually by consensus, determined to be more moral than others. neat huh? you should learn about it sometime
I don't think you have much understanding of morality, someone who doesn't care about the past and the future is dangerous to everyone in my opinion. Those that live after you are just as important as you are. We must try to learn from past mistakes, and we have a responsibility to try to leave a better future for those who come after us, anyone who doesn't think so I think doesn't even understand what's wrong or what's right.

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Old 01-02-2016, 02:26 PM #6390
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I only watched the first video and I find it disgusting and offensive so I didn't bother to watch the other two. However since you are an atheist I don't blame you for posting such garbage, and I support your right to do so. I do however have a problem with this:



I don't think you have much understanding of morality, someone who doesn't care about the past and the future is dangerous to everyone in my opinion. Those that live after you are just as important as you are. We must try to learn from past mistakes, and we have a responsibility to try to leave a better future for those who come after us, anyone who doesn't think so I think doesn't even understand what's wrong or what's right.

Alan
you mistook my meaning then, because I couldnt agree more with that. Duke was talking after humanity and our actions mattering then, when the whole world was dead, not the immediate future when our decsendants have to live with the mess we leave them. believe me, I care about the past and future, I think it's of paramount import to leave future generations a better place. thats why some christians and other religious people who dont care about preservation because they think (insert messiah here) return is imminent really bug me

I do think its funny you found a story from your bible disgusting and offensive. go look it up in the book of judges, that video exaggerates very little. this disgusting story is in the bible, taken from it. find a major detail in the video that differs from the bible's narrative.
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Old 01-02-2016, 04:38 PM #6391
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

What plug in is needed to view the bible stories?
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Old 01-02-2016, 05:18 PM #6392
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Is the existence of human life objectively good?
Good for what? Good in what scope? Good according to whom? Is <any noun> objectively good? Give me an example of <any noun> that is objectively good.
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Old 01-02-2016, 07:40 PM #6393
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
you mistook my meaning then, because I couldnt agree more with that. Duke was talking after humanity and our actions mattering then, when the whole world was dead, not the immediate future when our decsendants have to live with the mess we leave them. believe me, I care about the past and future, I think it's of paramount import to leave future generations a better place. thats why some christians and other religious people who dont care about preservation because they think (insert messiah here) return is imminent really bug me
I am pleased to hear that. I don't know any Christians who don't care about preservation because they think Jesus is returning soon.

There are however the rapture people that I find irritating who think they will be raptured away before the trouble starts. I could go into detail about why that's not biblical but I just don't have the time and energy right now to write anything about it. I said this once before and I will say it again, any Christian that tells me I better not get left behind will be told they can kiss my left behind!

If humanity were to die out completely then I am not sure anything we did or any of us matter at all. I don't believe that will happen though, but it could be that we won't always exist in our current form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I do think its funny you found a story from your bible disgusting and offensive. go look it up in the book of judges, that video exaggerates very little. this disgusting story is in the bible, taken from it. find a major detail in the video that differs from the bible's narrative.
I have read the book of Judges and the entire Old Testament quite a few times, but it has been awhile, I'll go and read Judges again but I do think the video exaggerates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
What plug in is needed to view the bible stories?
You shouldn't need one, they are normal YouTube videos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Good for what? Good in what scope? Good according to whom? Is <any noun> objectively good? Give me an example of <any noun> that is objectively good.
That is a good question, it would be easy to argue that we are good for nothing. I very much hope that is not the case. I see both good and evil among us, let's hope that there is more good than evil. I hope we can all tell the difference, it may be difficult to define but we all should know it when we see it.

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Old 01-02-2016, 08:44 PM #6394
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I am pleased to hear that. I don't know any Christians who don't care about preservation because they think Jesus is returning soon.

There are however the rapture people that I find irritating who think they will be raptured away before the trouble starts. I could go into detail about why that's not biblical but I just don't have the time and energy right now to write anything about it. I said this once before and I will say it again, any Christian that tells me I better not get left behind will be told they can kiss my left behind!

If humanity were to die out completely then I am not sure anything we did or any of us matter at all. I don't believe that will happen though, but it could be that we won't always exist in our current form.



I have read the book of Judges and the entire Old Testament quite a few times, but it has been awhile, I'll go and read Judges again but I do think the video exaggerates.



You shouldn't need one, they are normal YouTube videos.



That is a good question, it would be easy to argue that we are good for nothing. I very much hope that is not the case. I see both good and evil among us, let's hope that there is more good than evil. I hope we can all tell the difference, it may be difficult to define but we all should know it when we see it.

Alan
It would make sense if no species is inherently good, or bad...but that individual members could be better, or, worse, than each other.

IE: Even bad people do good things, and good people do bad things (Thank you Mr. Rodgers)

Some actions that harm others may be deemed good, or bad, depending upon your interpretation.

Is a lion that kills and eats a zebra any more wrong than the zebra killing and eating grass? (Most grasses are not killed when eaten by Zebra, as Zebra don't pull the roots too...but some other herbivores do also eat the roots, etc)


Or are neither really wrong at all, despite both committing murder?

Are either being "bad"?

Is it simply fair that lions eat zebras and zebras eat grass?


They all evolved to counter the other. Plants absorbed Carbon dioxide, and gave off toxic oxygen, and almost wiped out life on the planet, until some critters evolved a way to metabolize oxygen...

...and things that were being eaten by grazers evolved ways to grow faster or to provide a sacrificial part to be eaten, and grazers eaten by predators evolved ways to evade them, and predators evolved better ways to catch them, and so forth.

I see no good, or evil, at play in this.


Many Christians I know ASSURE ME that there is NOTHING mere humans can do to the planet that would hurt it.

They assume that god designed it all to work, including anything we do to it. So emissions, fracking, whatever, it doesn't matter a whit.


I don't see evil in that as inherent to the individuals, in that they don't want to hurt the planet per se...they just think they CAN'T hurt it, due to their religious beliefs.

The end result might be "bad", just as a species might be "bad for" another species...but the individuals might be evil, such as big oil propagandists who convinced sheeple that global climate change wasn't happening...or good, but a tool of evil, such as the sheeples who's wool was pulled over their eyes.

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Old 01-02-2016, 11:51 PM #6395
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
yes, parts of modern tyre are built over the ruins, but the prophesy fails in other respects

Christian apologist claim this was foretold by Ezekiel.—Ezekiel 26:4, 12. However, many scholars note that the prophecy in Ezekiel is not fulfilled for many reasons. For example, Ezekiel 26:19 claims "vast waters cover you", but in fact there is more land area for Tyre today than there was at the time of the prophecy. Furthermore, the prophecy claims in Ezekiel 26:21 that " you [Tyre] will be sought, but you will never again be found". Archaeologists know both the ancient and modern boundaries of Tyre.
I'm a bit late with my response to your post Shaken, sorry to break the flow of the thread.
It fascinated me when I read your post and somewhat glad to see you quote the Bible, specifically this fascinating prophecy.

I would be honoured though if you would take the time to listen to the following YouTube file in its entirety and perhaps it will put into perspective your query/argument.
It's from a sermon given by Pastor Chuck Smith from Costa Mesa California.
Anyway, I know it's over an hour long but maybe you can take the time to listen to it in its entirety and not only you but anyone else that is curious about Bible Prophecy.

The Bible says (in Revelation 19:10) that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."



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Old 01-03-2016, 03:48 AM #6396
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I dont buy it. for one, if the supposed boundries cant be determined, a claim I question, then how can he say with certainty that none of the modern city is built on it? parts of the causeway and island are where modern tyre is. seeing as much of the rubble is in the causeway, and some of the modern city is built on that, I'd say that qualifies. theres no question that at least some of the modern city is built on the old. water no longer covers it, though I suppose I cant be certain the prophesy meant it would be forever

RB, later in revelations 6:13 it says the stars will fall to the ground. my understanding is stars are much bigger than our planet. is that also your understanding? can you explain how something larger than the earth could fall to the ground? and not just one but all of them? I'm guessing you'll say it's metaphor for something else but I find that hard to believe when just before there are references to the moon going blood red and the sun going dark. or are those metaphor too? is that how we tell when the bible is being metaphorical, when it claims a physical impossibility, like the sun standing still in the sky so Joshua could have more time to do conquest. I always wondered why god would describe the event that way instead of saying the earth ceased to rotate, because that's what the sun standing still in the sky would really mean (which would have catastophic results). what became of earth's angular momentum during this event? the way god worded it, people might be left with the impression that the sun orbits earth. how strange. too bad god wasnt more accurate, that way when humanity figured this out for themselves, you christians could point to that passage and rightly claim scientific revelation from scripture. as it stands it just seems to indicate that the bible was written by men with no divine inspiration who were ignorant of much of the nature of reality

and yeah I love to quote the bible. its a great tool to demonstrate god's fickle nature and cruelty, among other things. there was a poll a while ago done on atheists who were former christians, like myself. they asked the biggest reason for deconversion, and the most common response was reading the bible. ironic that both sides gain converts using the same book
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Old 01-03-2016, 06:18 AM #6397
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I dont buy it. for one, if the supposed boundries cant be determined, a claim I question, then how can he say with certainty that none of the modern city is built on it? parts of the causeway and island are where modern tyre is. seeing as much of the rubble is in the causeway, and some of the modern city is built on that, I'd say that qualifies. theres no question that at least some of the modern city is built on the old. water no longer covers it, though I suppose I cant be certain the prophesy meant it would be forever

RB, later in revelations 6:13 it says the stars will fall to the ground. my understanding is stars are much bigger than our planet. is that also your understanding? can you explain how something larger than the earth could fall to the ground? and not just one but all of them? I'm guessing you'll say it's metaphor for something else but I find that hard to believe when just before there are references to the moon going blood red and the sun going dark. or are those metaphor too? is that how we tell when the bible is being metaphorical, when it claims a physical impossibility, like the sun standing still in the sky so Joshua could have more time to do conquest. I always wondered why god would describe the event that way instead of saying the earth ceased to rotate, because that's what the sun standing still in the sky would really mean (which would have catastophic results). what became of earth's angular momentum during this event? the way god worded it, people might be left with the impression that the sun orbits earth. how strange. too bad god wasnt more accurate, that way when humanity figured this out for themselves, you christians could point to that passage and rightly claim scientific revelation from scripture. as it stands it just seems to indicate that the bible was written by men with no divine inspiration who were ignorant of much of the nature of reality

and yeah I love to quote the bible. its a great tool to demonstrate god's fickle nature and cruelty, among other things. there was a poll a while ago done on atheists who were former christians, like myself. they asked the biggest reason for deconversion, and the most common response was reading the bible. ironic that both sides gain converts using the same book
I assume you listened to all of the sermon so I'd like to thank you for that.
Just as you don't see this prophecy being fulfilled you also won't see others coming to pass, your mind is set, and I admit my mind is set too, no apologies there, its just how we are.
Your hatred for the Bible is easy to see, just like my love for it.
What makes it interesting is that, if as you say God does not exist, then why does it bother you so much?
I don't have a problem with people not believing, they can believe whatever they want.

Now as for the stars falling, I don't doubt it will happen at all, its probably going to happen in a way we don't expect or realise.
Just like how people doubted that Israel would be reborn, or that the Messiah would be born of a Virgin, born in Bethlehem and yet 'out of Egypt have I called my Son", and "He shall be called a Nazarene".
You see, you can't outwit God, you can't fault Him, you can't second-guess Him and you can't call Him a liar because not everything has been fulfilled yet.
He will make everything come to pass just as He said and only when He wants things to happen.

The sun standing still for Joshua, is that such a big deal?
You don't think that a God that created, yes created, everything out of nothing by His Word, can also make the sun stand still while Joshua fought the battle?
Why can't He do these things 'supernaturally' without causing massive destruction upon the earth at the same time?

You and I are not capable of comprehending even how God pre-existed before He created the Universe, why do you think you can explain these events on a human level.
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:10-13)

God came down to the earth which He created and dwelt among us in bodily form (Jesus), either this is a lie and can be ignored or it happened and thus all other so called 'impossibilities' in the Bible are also true.

I have absolutely nothing to loose in believing this, I am content.
If it's not true then I will disappear into the 'ether' when I die with no consequence to me personally, yet having led a fulfilled and content life.

If it's all true, I am once again content knowing I will spend eternity with my Lord and Saviour.

The misery in the world you feel is a result of all this does not originate from God, it originates from the father of ALL lies and his followers.

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

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“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:13 PM #6398
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

he can use magic. it's clear that that's the only way it would be possible. there are probably the most impossibilities regarding the flood story. I could list the reasons that is impossible for hours. if god answers all these reasons with magic, then I wonder, why not just give all the evil people magic heart attacks, rather than making an old man go though all the effort of making an ark? he could have avoided killing all the other animals too. he just seems to enjoy elaborate pagentry and death/violence

You are wrong, I could be convinced with sufficient evidence, but like carl sagan said, extrodinary claims require extradorinary evidence. I am glad that it (christianity) is not true, because I am also not fond of this god character as defined by the abrahamic religions, and life under him would be like a perpetual north korea. he kinda reminds me of sid from toy story, only way worse. when you decide that no amouunt of evidence could convince you otherwise, it is the same as saying the truth doesnt matter to you. would you think twice if humanity encountered another sentient alien species? how about if humanity colonized other worlds and this one dies away after sol becomes a red giant? would Christ return to all these colonized worlds? it is unwise to not allow a level of uncertainty.

if you are wrong, you will have lost something though. all the time spent worshiping, reading the bible, etc. would be a waste if there's no god. granted, if there is a god and it's yours, you would be right. I've already discussed pascal's wager and why it is garbage, dont care to go over it again

yes, I do hate the bible, and christianity. I dont mind that I let it show, because not long ago they would have me killed in horrific ways for my beliefs or lack thereof. but dont get me wrong, I actually hold more disdain for islam and equal disdain for most other religions. hindus and buddhists dont bug me too bad, they dont seem to be out starting as much crap.

as for why it bothers me so much if I dont believe he exists. great question, I'll let this video answer



@ Pi R- I have read other posts where you mock the rapture idea. I certainly dont have a dog in the fight, but I think the idea is supported by the bible. I understand why you'd be offended by the tone of the videos I posted earlier, the author doesnt try to hide the mockery, but the events described are not much exaggerated, though obviously the language is different and the bible doesnt read samson's lines in a schwarzenegger accent. I believe the video is trying to be funny, if only to non-believers, which it is. I will make little to no effort to not offend you guys, and I wont expect you to be any different. I'd never neg rep someone for a post i disagree with in this thread, though I do hand out + reps sometimes. both sides do it, but my beliefs are not validated by the number of people who share them. probably we shouldnt do it at all, so that our rep powers can be more based on the quality of our laser related posts. oh well, rep is fairly meaningless anyway. the popularity of an idea is no indicator of it's accuracy. my ideas are offensive to you and visa versa, so being offended is meaningless, it doesnt progress the discussion. not to imply that it is going anywhere

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Old 01-03-2016, 07:56 PM #6399
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Just a note:

As no one had clocks yet, and the earth was still spinning...making the "sun stand still" would not buy more time for the battle.

Essentially, night would come just as soon if the sun stood still.

The supernatural explanation is that god could not just make the enemies die, or, make them sad...or make them defect sides...or, have to pee really bad...or have to go home because their wives really missed them, or have their weapons turn into plowshares...

All the omnipotent omniscient supernatural critter could come up with, was to buy more time for the battle, by changing the laws of physics, gravity, time and space, and make the day take longer to give people more time to kill each other?

So ALL the planets and stars and moons, etc, would be impacted...instead of a few bladders or swords?

Really?

When they say "The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways".....its not really mysterious at all, and, it all makes PERFECT SENSE, if you assume he's really a character of Bronze Age barbarians.

Pretty much all the stuff that makes no sense, with modern knowledge, makes perfect sense if ascribed to the level of ancient knowledge possessed by those telling us about god.

IE: If a cave man could record in a book that thunder and lightening is god fighting in the sky....and even after we discovered that its an atmospheric phenomenon with no supernatural causes, sure, there would be a "book" that said thunder and lightning were from god fighting in the sky...and some devout believers who'd insist it therefore must be true, as, "its in the book!".


The constant attempts to wave off obviously wrong parts as out of context, misinterpreted, etc, get old, fast.

Essentially, if a normal person reads something that might make sense, say, to treat others well too, etc, or not to covet other's wives (Husbands are OK though...), and sees stuff in there that seems wrong, say, that there was a global flood...they ignore the global flood, or other goofy/wrong parts, focus on the parts they thought were OK....ignore that 100% of the parts that were OK predate the bible...and pretend the good is from the bible.


Its a LOT of work to try to maintain one's faith in the weight of evidence against it. Pulling that weight, tirelessly, and without distraction, like a plow horse wearing blinders, pulling the plowshare...to plant the seeds of ignorance for future generations.


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Old 01-03-2016, 09:56 PM #6400
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
yes, parts of modern tyre are built over the ruins, but the prophesy fails in other respects

Christian apologist claim this was foretold by Ezekiel.—Ezekiel 26:4, 12. However, many scholars note that the prophecy in Ezekiel is not fulfilled for many reasons. For example, Ezekiel 26:19 claims "vast waters cover you", but in fact there is more land area for Tyre today than there was at the time of the prophecy. Furthermore, the prophecy claims in Ezekiel 26:21 that " you [Tyre] will be sought, but you will never again be found". Archaeologists know both the ancient and modern boundaries of Tyre.
Ezekiel predicted:
(1) many nations would come against Tyre
(2) the inhabitants of the villages and fields of Tyre would be slain
(3) Nebuchadnezzar would build a siege mound against the city
(4) the city would be broken down and the stones, timber, and soil would be thrown in “the midst of the water"
(5) the city would become a “place for spreading nets”
(6) the city would never be rebuilt.

1- Many nations did come against Tyre
2- Inhabitants of Tyre were slain
3- Nebuchadnezzar did siege the city
4- Alexander the Great used the stones, timber, and soil of mainland Tyre and put them in "the midst of the water" to build the causeway.
5- Evidence shows that sites of ancient Tyre lie under water
6- Ancient Tyre was never rebuilt, and the modern city has no real connection to the city condemned by Ezekiel other than its location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I can save you some time and prove at least one thing the bible predicted, that never happened, IE god was wrong or lied. the bible says that the city of Tyre would be destroyed and never rebuilt. shall I show you the city of Tyre on google maps?
Far from proof my friend, you're actually pointing to an amazing prophecy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
why are you so important that you deserve to matter forever? and yes, my views would be better because being subjective doesnt mean equal valued as well. we have a sort of moral gradient, subjective as it might be. some actions are, usually by consensus, determined to be more moral than others. neat huh? you should learn about it sometime
I don't deserve to matter forever.
If your morality was objective maybe you could say your morals are better than mine., but consensus or not, you have no solid ground to stand on telling anyone their morals are lesser, since they are subjective everyone gets to decide for themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
your characterization of humans as "accidents of matter" implies that your understanding of evolution is wrong. mutations are random, though not even nesessarily accidental. accidental implies it had another purpose which did not happen. mutations are random, but natural selection is not. also, organisms build on success, so they dont need to get all their parts at once, fully formed. irreducible complexity has been thouroughly debunked

I think many would argue humans do not have intrinsic value. but even if we dont, I'm ok with extrinsic value
Just a context issue here.

Simple Definition of accident - Webster
1 a sudden event (such as a crash) that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury
2 an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance

I was hoping you would know I chose meaning 2. Being just matter that chanced it's way into order, why do our actions even matter in life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
i kinda doubt I would be pleased. do they start by saying, we believe the exodus story, lets see if we can find supporting evidence, or do they go dig around in egypt, find evidence, and ask, what does this mean, having never presupposed the bible to be true? i saw part of the trailer, which mentioned skewing historical dates to make their narrative fit. doesnt sound like science to me. I could be wrong, I just doubt it very much. but that's the difference now isnt it? i allow a level of uncertainty to allow new information. christians are rigidly forbidden to do this, they must be certain that the bible is true. if reality conflicts, it must be a problem with reality, not the bible. or a misunderstanding of the bible. the bible can never be wrong, even when it says thing that we know 100% are not true.
I can tell you it's scientific all day but if you want to continue put your faith in that there isn't any evidence for the exodus in half a trailer that's disappointing. Just know that I'm pretty confident that if you posted a documentary to me, and I watched half the trailed and said it's probably crap off my bias you would have a fit. Also be aware just has you obviously hold to a very negative christian stereotype, the same goes for atheists. Almost every atheist I've met and discussed God with have very weak philosophical and evidential reasons for denying God.

You can try to pick on the Old Testament all you want. The real giants you face are the strong arguments for the existence of God and the historicity of Jesus Christ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Good for what? Good in what scope? Good according to whom? Is <any noun> objectively good? Give me an example of <any noun> that is objectively good.
An example from me would be from my worldview, we're trying to get an answer from yours.
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Last edited by TheDukeAnumber1; 01-04-2016 at 03:24 AM. Reason: typo
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