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Old 12-30-2015, 09:08 PM #6353
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We did cover it, but it essentially ended with you saying you didn't want to discuss it further. Just address the question as is with no holds to any specific God.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Can your god change what is moral, or does he only tell us what is moral?
This strikes me as similar to the Euthypro Dilemma, which is a false dilemma, the third option is God wills something because he is good.


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Old 12-31-2015, 12:09 AM #6354
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
address the question as is with no holds to any specific God.
So you believe more than one deity could account for morality?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
God wills something because he is good.
So you're saying your god would never will something immoral?

Are you able to make moral judgments without invoking your god? Do you think I am capable of making moral judgments without invoking your god?

Please define "moral". We cannot discuss it until we agree on what it is.
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:20 AM #6355
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
So you believe more than one deity could account for morality?
I didn't say that nor is it relevant to answering the question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
So you're saying your god would never will something immoral?
Yes.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Are you able to make moral judgments without invoking your god? Do you think I am capable of making moral judgments without invoking your god?
Belief in God isn't required to behave morally and this isn't the issue. I refer to my above question.

In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Please define "moral". We cannot discuss it until we agree on what it is.
Moral: concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:58 AM #6356
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

oh I get the moral issue. sorry, to me arbitrary fits god better than objective. here's why

1. objective
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

I dont think thats the case, god's morals dont seem to fit this to me, there are no facts taken into consideration, and I am certain they are influenced by god's feelings and opinions

2. Arbitrary
based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

there we go, that's more like it. the rules are the way they are because god said so, and they change at his whim. god certainly owes and gives us no reson for them. that's arbitrary, not objective

In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?

no, and I would agrue that even the existence of god would not change that

sorry to burst your bubble, but god wills tons of immoral stuff, like killing and slavery. unless you think those things are moral, you know, cause god said so

if god wants to interfere in some lives and provide some with more evidence than others, he is free to do so. he just shouldnt do that AND then claim to be "No respecter of persons" understand yet? it's also not fair to judge those who failed to make the right choice based on less evidence as harshly as those who were presented with evidence. it's like helping one kid cheat on the test to pass while the rest of the kids figure everything out or not by themselves

some of the things I mentioned were from the apocryphas, but the zombies walking around jerusalem made the final cut. there's evidence for this? why would god even allow men to decide what books to include? by what metric did they determine actual account from crazy made up shit, because even the gosples they included contradict each other. the only evidence for the bible I am aware of is the fact that some of the people and places really did exist, but we would expect that. thats no proof, any more than the existence of troy proves the odyssey and iliad. I'm talking well documented congruence with reality that records some of these supposed miracles. it would help if history we do know matched up, like the exodus from egypt, which apperently never happened

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

The historicity of the exodus continues to attract popular attention, but most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about it recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence.[4] The archeological evidence does not support the story told in the Book of Exodus[5] and most archaeologists have therefore abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit"

there is zero evidence for most claims the bible makes and very much evidence against it. like the whole earth flooded. there's no evidence the entire world was ever covered by water and very much evidence to conclude that it never was

"In the atheistic worldview - If you live consistently you will not be happy, if you live happily it is because you are inconsistent. If life ends at the grave and the universe sees its end then it makes no ultimate difference whether you lived as a monster or a saint. Things that bring happiness, meaning, value, purpose, are all illusory. I understand you assign your own value but under your views this is just a thin facade over your beliefs.'

I have no idea what you are on about with regards to consistency and happiness. I am both happy and strive for consistency, so you're wrong i guess. it does matter if I am a monster or a saint, because I am accountable to those around me and accountable for what I leave behind when I depart. just because there is no ultimate punishment for being bad or good is no reason to be bad or say that bad behavior cant be criticized with no objective basis. in fact, I think I am morally superior to christians because I choose to be good without a threat or reward, and knowing it might amount to nothing at all. being good because you are afraid of hell doesnt imply that you really understand morals, just that you can be scared into behaving as ordered, without question or reason

love can still be freely given to one who has earned it, as we can also choose to withhold it.

God's love is unconditional (some conditions apply, like believing in jesus)
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Old 12-31-2015, 04:35 AM #6357
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I didn't say that nor is it relevant to answering the question.
This is my question. A new question, if you wish to frame it as such. Do you believe other deities could account for moral objectivity? Yes or no?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Moral: concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior
And how do you go about determining what is right and wrong?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
So you're saying your god would never will something immoral?
Yes.
If your god told you to do something you thought was immoral, would you still do it?
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Old 12-31-2015, 06:28 PM #6358
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?

no, and I would agrue that even the existence of god would not change that

sorry to burst your bubble, but god wills tons of immoral stuff, like killing and slavery. unless you think those things are moral, you know, cause god said so
If God exists and his nature is good and unchanging. Then it follows that the morals provided are objective. This is not an impossibility. Also God is faithful to carry out his promises of blessing but he is also faithful to carry out is promises of judgment and wrath. God would not be good if he was not also just.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I have no idea what you are on about with regards to consistency and happiness. I am both happy and strive for consistency, so you're wrong i guess. it does matter if I am a monster or a saint, because I am accountable to those around me and accountable for what I leave behind when I depart. just because there is no ultimate punishment for being bad or good is no reason to be bad or say that bad behavior cant be criticized with no objective basis. in fact, I think I am morally superior to christians because I choose to be good without a threat or reward, and knowing it might amount to nothing at all. being good because you are afraid of hell doesnt imply that you really understand morals, just that you can be scared into behaving as ordered, without question or reason
When humanity and the universe is dead, why will anything you have done mattered. And since you believe morals are subjective then you must also believe your moral superiority is also subjective, essentially you believe your morality is superior just because it is yours.

You're setting up a straw man for yourself with this "fear of hell" talk. If you believe in Christ you have no need to fear hell. If you don't believe in Christ you have no need to fear hell. You're talking to some strange combination of someone who believes in Christ yet rejects him.


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
God's love is unconditional (some conditions apply, like believing in jesus)
It truly surprises me you would say this. This is a basic misunderstanding of Christianity. God's love has always been unconditional, but due to our free will our acceptance or rejection of it is not.

Also I challenge you to watch this documentary - Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus - It's on Netflix if you have it and I would like to see if you still believe there is no evidence for the exodus after watching it.



@ Cyparagon

I'm more interested in an actual discussion than being drilled with questions while mine are ignored.

In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?
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Old 12-31-2015, 08:47 PM #6359
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
When humanity and the universe is dead, why will anything you have done mattered.
I hope you're not arguing a belief because "my belief gives me a sense of purpose". That's fine, but why should I believe the same? I care about truth, not emotional appeal.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm more interested in an actual discussion than being drilled with questions...
Part of having a discussion is answering questions. See below.

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In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?
We're getting to that. That depends on how you define things, and how you go about finding out what is right and wrong. I cannot answer the question "do objective right and wrong exist" if you won't tell me what "right and wrong" is to begin with. If you can answer my questions, I can answer this one.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:43 PM #6360
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I care about truth, not emotional appeal.
As do I, I only push this because the atheist needs to acknowledge the consequences of his beliefs.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
We're getting to that. That depends on how you define things, and how you go about finding out what is right and wrong. I cannot answer the question "do objective right and wrong exist" if you won't tell me what "right and wrong" is to begin with. If you can answer my questions, I can answer this one.
Just use webster, if you feel the nuances of a particular word will affect your answer then clarify within the answer.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:53 PM #6361
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

HA! you're a funny guy.

"right: morally or socially correct"
"moral: concerning or relating to what is right and wrong"

Besides, Webster will not tell me how YOU go about finding out what is right and wrong.


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I only push this because the atheist needs to acknowledge the consequences of his beliefs.
Uh huh, "If Santa is not real, that means he won't give you presents!" I'm well aware. I still get presents, but they're not from Santa.
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Old 12-31-2015, 10:02 PM #6362
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Besides, Webster will not tell me how YOU go about finding out what is right and wrong.
This is not relevant to the question. I'm asking you a question for you to answer within your worldview.


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Uh huh, "If Santa is not real, that means he won't give you presents!" I'm well aware. I still get presents, but they're not from Santa.
If you can't own up to your own worldview what good is it
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Old 12-31-2015, 11:13 PM #6363
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
This is not relevant to the question. I'm asking you a question for you to answer within your worldview.
We've already been over what I think. To recap: with any situation, there are a finite number of actions you can take. Some of these actions improve the human condition demonstrably and objectively more than others.

What do you think?
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Old 12-31-2015, 11:24 PM #6364
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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HA! you're a funny guy.

"right: morally or socially correct"
"moral: concerning or relating to what is right and wrong"

Besides, Webster will not tell me how YOU go about finding out what is right and wrong.




Uh huh, "If Santa is not real, that means he won't give you presents!" I'm well aware. I still get presents, but they're not from Santa.
He's not trying to be funny. He's challenging you're viewpoint and very well I might add while you can't seem to handle that. I don't think you're about truth. I think you're about how right you think you are and everyone else is wrong so you have to think of it as a joke.
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Old 12-31-2015, 11:42 PM #6365
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

TRUTH? Ha! That is so related to perspective and how deep you want to dig
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.
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Old 12-31-2015, 11:51 PM #6366
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
He's not trying to be funny. He's challenging you're viewpoint and very well I might add while you can't seem to handle that. I don't think you're about truth. I think you're about how right you think you are and everyone else is wrong so you have to think of it as a joke.
I see no reasoned argument here, just baseless accusations. Do you have something constructive to say, or is the "You're wrong" approach all you know?
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Old 12-31-2015, 11:52 PM #6367
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
TRUTH? Ha! That is so related to perspective and how deep you want to dig
I don't know my friend. I think some things are the same regardless of opinion. Kinda like a lemon. I think we can all agree that shit is sour lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I see no reasoned argument here, just baseless accusations. Do you have something constructive to say, or is the "You're wrong" approach all you know?
So your eyes do work. Yes there is no argument here. I made a true statement based on what I see. You want constructive then go to a support group.

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Old 01-01-2016, 12:07 AM #6368
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Very little in this world is unassailable.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.
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