Old 12-21-2015, 08:17 AM #6337
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Love Your Enemies

Jesus said:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?
Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Matthew 5:43-48


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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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Old 12-21-2015, 05:25 PM #6338
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

He also said:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:27

Numerous other places arent so charitable towards enemies either, though lots were before Jesus. since his will is eternal, not fickle, and they're the same guy (god and Jesus) shouldnt matter right?
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Old 12-21-2015, 05:45 PM #6339
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you feel there is a contradiction between the teaching RB referenced and that parable please state it clearly, preferably with contextual support. I'm tired of these at a glance contradictions without support, they do not sway a discerning believer who studies scripture.
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Old 12-21-2015, 08:42 PM #6340
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
If you feel there is a contradiction between the teaching RB referenced and that parable please state it clearly, preferably with contextual support.
That, in a nut shell, sums up the big problem when religion is discussed.
It's way too easy for people to take a statement out of context and make it sound like fact.
Then the casual reader takes that as 'Gospel' and uses it to justify their unbelief, much to the detriment of all.
In fact both sides are just as guilty of taking scripture out of context unfortunately.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
He also said:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:27
@ShakenAwake, I'm glad you posted this because it gives me a chance to
explain it in context.

This was a parable were Jesus (using an analogous 'story') tries to convey to the crowd how the Kingdom of God will dispense Judgement and Righteousness.

This parable tells of how the believers will be rewarded and judged by their actions on the day of Judgement.
As believers we are to share the good news, not hide it for fear of persecution by the non believers because the non believers will be judged harshly for their non belief to the Good News of Salvation.

To the believers who proclaim the Truth to people, they will be given even more in Heaven. To the ones that are frightened to share the Gospel, they will have their rewards in Heaven diminished.

But to the unbelievers who die in their Sin, they will be cast in the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and his angels (God's enemies).
The point of the parable: Don't end up dying as one of God's enemies and if you do become a believer then don't hide your candle under a bushel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus
The Parable of the Minas

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately.
12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return.
13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’
15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’
18 And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’
19 Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’
20 “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief.

21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’
22 And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow.
23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’
24 “And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.’

25 (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’)
26 ‘For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’"
__________________
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀

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Old 12-25-2015, 02:14 PM #6341
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Merry christmas everyone!!!
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Old 12-25-2015, 07:43 PM #6342
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Merry Christmas to you too Teej and to everyone.

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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:22 PM #6343
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

a question I'd like to hear a rationalization for.

why does god no longer submit to the kind of test that he did with Elijah and the prophets of Baal?

if he is no respecter of persons (shows no favortism) then why is he willing to do this for Elijah, but not me? seems like he does favor people, after all, he does have a chosen people.

I do fight against christianity, yet I dont kill christians, as did saul. yet god appeared to him on the road to damascus and he became paul and was totally converted. am I so much less important than paul/saul?

What does it mean, "God is no respecter of persons"? | United Church of God
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Old 12-29-2015, 01:57 AM #6344
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
why does god no longer submit to the kind of test that he did with Elijah and the prophets of Baal?
Elijah was not testing God.

At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 1 Kings 18:36 NIV


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
if he is no respecter of persons (shows no favortism) then why is he willing to do this for Elijah, but not me? seems like he does favor people, after all, he does have a chosen people.
God chose to bless the Israelites that they would be a blessing to all nations, not that they were "favorites". As evidence of this look at the final plague brought to Egypt in exodus. "It's not that the Israelites didn't experience God's judgment because they were better people. They escaped the judgment simply because they trusted in the sacrifice provided by God."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I do fight against christianity, yet I dont kill christians, as did saul. yet god appeared to him on the road to damascus and he became paul and was totally converted. am I so much less important than paul/saul?
Are you implying that if a parent gives one child more responsibility than another that it's evidence that child is loved more? We are all loved the same but clearly we are not all the same, and since we are all endowed with individual free will I see no reason to expect everyones experience to be the same.
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Old 12-29-2015, 03:04 AM #6345
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Elijah was not testing God.

At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 1 Kings 18:36 NIV




God chose to bless the Israelites that they would be a blessing to all nations, not that they were "favorites". As evidence of this look at the final plague brought to Egypt in exodus. "It's not that the Israelites didn't experience God's judgment because they were better people. They escaped the judgment simply because they trusted in the sacrifice provided by God."




Are you implying that if a parent gives one child more responsibility than another that it's evidence that child is loved more? We are all loved the same but clearly we are not all the same, and since we are all endowed with individual free will I see no reason to expect everyones experience to be the same.
appearing to some but not all interferes with my free will to have as much evidence for the existence of god as some have had. if he appeared to me, i would have a lot more reason to believe in him. appearing to some and not others is picking favorites. I picked the saul/paul example to provide a precedent for him appearing to non believers and persecuters of christianity. it's unfair to send me to hell for not believing when I am not able to have the same evidence to examine. no ethical scientist would ever withhold data regarding something they are trying to prove to others, or allow others to repeat. if you think the bible should suffice as a substitute for seeing it myself, I wouldnt be suprised, but I hope you can see why that is a horrible standard.

so lets say it was entirely god's will and idea to allow himself to be tested against Baal in the case of elijah. can never pin you down can I? why do you think god does not opt to do this sort of demonstration any more? particularly in front of video cameras?
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Old 12-29-2015, 08:09 AM #6346
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
appearing to some but not all interferes with my free will to have as much evidence for the existence of god as some have had. if he appeared to me, i would have a lot more reason to believe in him. appearing to some and not others is picking favorites.

it's unfair to send me to hell for not believing when I am not able to have the same evidence to examine.

so lets say it was entirely god's will and idea to allow himself to be tested against Baal in the case of elijah. can never pin you down can I? why do you think god does not opt to do this sort of demonstration any more? particularly in front of video cameras?
God didn't physically appear to me.....
He didn't have to, I believed because I read His Word.

Now lets say (hypothetically speaking), you end up in Hell and I end up in Heaven then your argument about "unfair appearances and interference with your free will", goes out the window.
It must be for some other reason you end up in Hell....
John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also God doesn't need to appear in front of a video camera for people to believe in Him nowdays.
If that were the case then there'd be no need for faith.

Romans 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

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Old 12-29-2015, 10:26 AM #6347
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I may end up in hell in that scenario but God is stil being inconsistent, something he's not supposed to do but does all the time. man hell really scares you guys, just the hypothetical thought of it has you ready to submit your critical faculties. it's quite effective coercion for so many

so why do people now have to have faith but people back then got direct evidence? dodge the question again

I'm glad I don't need faith to be a good person. or at all. in fact, I'm an apistevst, and I believe a position of faith is the MOSY DISHONEST ONE TO HOLD because it is DISHONEST TO ASSERT AS FACT THAT WHICH IS NOT EVIDENTLY TRUE, which is exactly what faith does and requires.

really there is no arguement I could make that you would reason about to the logical end, due to faith. or you could fall back on the bible and claim it all seem like foolishness to me because god deliberately made it that way

1 Corinthians 21

so by all means, go indule in your foolishness
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:06 PM #6348
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
so why do people now have to have faith but people back then got direct evidence? dodge the question again

The faith we have is in that God will fulfill his promises, not that we need to make leaps to conclude he exists. The empty tomb, post resurrection appearances, and the disciples belief are well established historically. Also a universe with a beginning, life, consciousness, and morality all point to an intelligent agent. Gods existence is evident and hardly requires faith.

Edit: Not to dodge your question, take a look at Judas, the Pharisees, even people today. The "Direct evidence" as you put it doesn't always result in belief. What is your issue with God calling on certain individuals throughout history?


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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I'm glad I don't need faith to be a good person. or at all. in fact, I'm an apistevst, and I believe a position of faith is the MOSY DISHONEST ONE TO HOLD because it is DISHONEST TO ASSERT AS FACT THAT WHICH IS NOT EVIDENTLY TRUE, which is exactly what faith does and requires.
The question is not "Must we believe in God to live moral lives?"

The question is "If God does not exist, do objective moral values and duties exist?"

And the answer is they do not, in your worldview your "good" is defined by yourself. And in the light of individual lives, the human species, and the universe all inevitably headed to a pointless end, why do you care.


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really there is no arguement I could make that you would reason about to the logical end
Please feel free discuss, I won't logically cop out.
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Old 12-29-2015, 08:06 PM #6349
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
He also said:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:27

Numerous other places arent so charitable towards enemies either, though lots were before Jesus. since his will is eternal, not fickle, and they're the same guy (god and Jesus) shouldnt matter right?
Proverbs 25
21If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.
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Old 12-29-2015, 10:59 PM #6350
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I know this has been explained already.

I'm sorry you seem to think all that stuff is well established historically, but it is not. what about the other apocryphas, like the gospsel of peter, in which jesus emerges from the tomb a giant, and the cross talks. is that historically established too? zombies walking around is historically established? I think you need some history/archeology lessons.



my issue is just god being inconsistent, or not affording me the same opportunities to believe as everyone else. again, I used the saul paul example to provide a precedent for him making himself known to unbelievers so that no believer could say that he would only reveal himself to me if I already believed

i'm sorry you need morality to come from an arbitrary eternal source. I'd say even your god fails as a constant source of morality, his morality seems to flip flop a lot. he cant decide if isreal should be a blessing to all nations or kill all nations and take their virgin women for themselves. or if sinners should be permitted to live with believers until judgement day as in the parable told by jesus, or if they need to be wiped out before then as in the flood and sodom/gamorrah. love your enemies or kill them all AND their livestock.

you call that moral? would you murder and rape if you didnt believe the bible? why are arbitrary "Moral values" preferable to what we come up with through the human experience? why did moses hide the egyptian he killed if he didnt know murder was wrong until later when god wrote it in stone? clearly, even believers seem to understand morals to a degree without being told by god. morals are largely decided by consensus, not individually so much.

people of non christian religious belief or no religious belief at all have again and again come up with the idea that murder rape and stealing are wrong, independant of your god, so clearly, he is neither needed for, nor is the source of, these morals.

sometimes I do hear christians say that if they didnt believe they would be out stealing and raping. yet I never hear about this happening upon someone's conversion from belief to atheism. I wonder why.

I'll give an example of why it's better to have morals which can adapt to new understanding. before germ theory, many causes of illness were proposed, one of which being sin. in that case, sick people might be ostracized rather than helped because they were thought to be being punished for sin. now that we understand much more about the causes of illness, we understand that sin has nothing to do with it. the fact that demonstrably good people, some of them believers themselves, fall ill as well sometimes, lends credence to the notion that it is not sin based. with this knowledge, we are more compassionate to the sick. though it could just be that god allowed satan to make an individual sick so he can win a bet with the devil regarding the individual's devotion, like with Job. that probably wouldnt be a violation of free will either. just a playful bet at your entire family and livelihood's expense. God is great.

if I did get my moral values from the bible, I might think it's ok to do things like offer my daughters up to be gang raped by an angry mob before getting drunk and having *** with them myself. if you think that sounds extreme, not from the bible, you are unfamiliar with the story of Lot, the most righteous man in sodom, the only one worth saving. I could extrapolate that to justify incest, luckily I am smarter than that and dont believe the bibe. and have no daughters

inflexible thinking I often find associated with religion inhibits growth and new understanding, which hinders our growth collectively. this is one reson I am opposed to religion. naturally there are exceptions. there always will be when generalizing.

the only meaning my life needs to have is that which I fill it with and the enrichment other people provide, and that's sufficient. the fact that is finite makes the time I do have invaluable. I am sorry you need to feel like an automaton of god, doing his preprogrammed pageant of death and submission, and that your life would be meaningless without him to tell you what to do. hardly seems like free will to me. the free will to go along or die and suffer forever, which I call "coercion" I am sorry that the thought of not existing forever terrifies you. is your ego and self worth so great that you deserve to live forever? Oh right, you dont deserve it, it's a gift of grace, sorry, my bad.

one more thing, you can't demand love. it has to be freely given and earned. god demands it on threat of eternal torture which is one reason I see so many similarities between believers and the symptoms of stockholm syndrome and battered person syndrome. think not? from wikipedia page on BPS:

"Additionally, repeated cycles of violence and reconciliation can result in the following beliefs and attitudes:[8]

The abused thinks that the violence was his or her fault.
The abused has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
The abused fears for her/his life, and/or, the lives of loved ones whom the abuser might or has threatened to harm (e.g., children-in-common, close relatives or friends).
The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient."
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Old 12-30-2015, 06:38 PM #6351
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I know this has been explained already.

I'm sorry you seem to think all that stuff is well established historically, but it is not. what about the other apocryphas, like the gospsel of peter, in which jesus emerges from the tomb a giant, and the cross talks. is that historically established too? zombies walking around is historically established?
If we apply the same sort of criteria that we would apply to any other ancient literary sources, then the evidence is firm and plausible. Typically the reasons those works weren't included in the canon is their sources came too late after Christs resurrection, were known to come from an unreliable source, or weren't tied to eye witness testimonies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
my issue is just god being inconsistent, or not affording me the same opportunities to believe as everyone else. again, I used the saul paul example to provide a precedent for him making himself known to unbelievers so that no believer could say that he would only reveal himself to me if I already believed
I see what you're saying but I don't see how you're trying to use differing life experiences to attack God's existence or biblical doctrine. It's completely within the realm of possibility that God is fair, just, and loving while our life experiences aren't identical.


@ your morality comments

I would be happy to study scripture with you and discuss some of these morality issues you're having with the bible just in a slightly more focused and clear way. Two sentence summaries of a whole book without studying the purpose for these events, what's being communicated, or trying to understand who God is will certainly lead to the views you hold.

Seems like you didn't really get the morality issue and you've replaced "objective" with "arbitrary". In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?


@ your meaning of life comments

In the atheistic worldview - If you live consistently you will not be happy, if you live happily it is because you are inconsistent. If life ends at the grave and the universe sees its end then it makes no ultimate difference whether you lived as a monster or a saint. Things that bring happiness, meaning, value, purpose, are all illusory. I understand you assign your own value but under your views this is just a thin facade over your beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
one more thing, you can't demand love. it has to be freely given and earned
If you earned it then it wasn't free was it.
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Old 12-30-2015, 08:34 PM #6352
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
In the absence of God, do objective morals and duties exist?
I thought we covered this, but we can try again.

Can they exist only with your god, or can other deities dictate morality? Can your god change what is moral, or does he only tell us what is moral?

Define moral. Is it "what god says is good"?
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