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Old 12-17-2015, 02:40 PM #6305
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You don't have to convince me Teej, I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to NDE's, but I will acknowledge that there are human phenomena that are better explained by the metaphysical than materialism.

If you're trying to, as you sometimes put it, "recalibrate" Alaskan, you're addressing the wrong issue. He wasn't looking for a view of how all NDE's could be false IE- they are all either liars or hallucinating. As he put it -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
For those seeking answers and seeing too many wrong ones to believe something I ask this, how many white crows must you see to be able to believe white crows can exist? You will find lots of non-sense when searching this subject
You must address the


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Old 12-17-2015, 05:03 PM #6306
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
there are human phenomena that are better explained by the metaphysical
"I don't know" is a more intellectually honest answer.

You could also 'explain' it with magic, auras, aliens, or Alaskan's favorite spooky light-pyramids. It has no explanatory power though, it's simply attempting to solve a mystery by appealing to a bigger mystery.

We cannot distinguish between an unknowable cause, a currently unknown cause, and a supernatural cause. But EVERY time a currently unknown cause has been found out, it's turned out to be natural. Does that mean the supernatural doesn't exist? Not necessarily. But we have no way of investigating it, if it doesn't manifest in reality. And if it doesn't manifest in reality, it's existence is indistinguishable from its nonexistence.
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Old 12-17-2015, 09:20 PM #6307
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You don't have to convince me Teej, I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to NDE's, but I will acknowledge that there are human phenomena that are better explained by the metaphysical than materialism.

If you're trying to, as you sometimes put it, "recalibrate" Alaskan, you're addressing the wrong issue. He wasn't looking for a view of how all NDE's could be false IE- they are all either liars or hallucinating. As he put it -



You must address the

I think the difference between the super natural, and believing that a crow can be devoid of most pigment, is the crow is well within the realm of possibility, and I'd believe there could be white crow without actually needing to see one.

Believing that a common symptom of oxygen deprivation is actually supernatural is, on the other hand, silly, and not within the realm of possibility in the way an albino crow would be.

IE: There is evidence that animals can be albino. There is a mechanism to explain it. It can be predicted genetically.

There is no evidence that damaged or dying brains work reliably, and there is evidence that they will see what is erroneously reported by some as a metaphysical experience.

There is also evidence that those reporting the metaphysical experience are not actually reporting a metaphysical experience, as they do not see what they purport to have seen...and were therefore merely imagining the experience.

So, evidence of physical...and none of metaphysical.

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Old 12-18-2015, 03:07 AM #6308
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Teej

I agree, but we aren't talking about crows. The point of the white crow is that it would only take one instance to prove it can happen.
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Old 12-18-2015, 04:45 AM #6309
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This is the ultimate explanation to it all


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Old 12-18-2015, 08:08 AM #6310
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

VisibleGreen: I see someone keeps knocking your reps below 100 every time they can, for someone to go after you more because they don't want your reps to be at 100 or above is too much for me to accept. Fact is, one of the individuals attacking you has a LOWER ratio of posts to positive reps than you do, that says something to me. To me it is the ratio of positive reps to posts which means the most, not the number of reps over a period of years.

My thought is this system shouldn't allow the same person to neg any one individual more than a few times in a year, otherwise it's just a vengeance. Does this rep system foster better relationships and less fighting? I am not sure. Is it fair to allow a member to get so many reps they can inflict so much damage on another member to the point they use it like a weapon against anyone they dislike while at the same time going unchallenged due to having the ability to take away so many reps so easily?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You don't have to convince me Teej, I'm extremely skeptical when it comes to NDE's, but I will acknowledge that there are human phenomena that are better explained by the metaphysical than materialism.

If you're trying to, as you sometimes put it, "recalibrate" Alaskan, you're addressing the wrong issue. He wasn't looking for a view of how all NDE's could be false IE- they are all either liars or hallucinating. As he put it -



You must address the
Deniers without having researched the subject for themselves. That isn't uncommon.

I'd be curious to know if other normal colored crows reject this bird or not. I figured a white crow could exist, just never saw a photo of one before, certainly never in my near 60 years living on this rock.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

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Old 12-18-2015, 01:09 PM #6311
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ Teej

I agree, but we aren't talking about crows. The point of the white crow is that it would only take one instance to prove it can happen.
Agreed...and, in the caase of a white crow, I am saying that for something that is physically possible to happen, I would not even NEED the one case to believe it happened...as its at least a plausible event.

IE: You say, "Hey TJ, I saw a white crow yesterday!" And I simply believe you, because its a possible event, and there are no dire consequences if you are wrong, or right...so the cost benefit ratio is favorable for the belief.

If you say "Hey, TJ, I had an out of body experience yesterday and was floating over the roof top of your house!" And I simply assume you had a dream/hallucination to that effect.

I might look for proof, if you insist it was real, as, while a white crow is easily explainable, and there would be no real reason to doubt you, floating over roof tops out of your body is not plausible, and there IS reason to doubt you.

I might then ask,when you were over my roof, did I have a message written on it?

If you say, why YES! It said "I now accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour!" - THEN I would say, Holy CRAP! You WERE looking down at my roof!

If you say, no, I didn't see a message...why?

Then I'd say, well, if over my roof, you would have seen a large message written there for those floating over my roof...so, I don't think you WERE over my roof, because you DIDN'T see what you WOULD HAVE SEEN, IF you HAD been floating over my roof.


So, the seeing is believing thing, while fraught with a separate set of variables, such as exploited by Chris Angel, etc, is at least provable in some cases, IF it WERE seen, but, NO ONE has seen a message, and many have claimed to have been where they should have.


IE: Lets say that as many people have a known symptom set when dying...its fair to say its a normal enough symptom, and not a trancendental experience....

..so when SOME claim that THEIR SYMPTOMS ARE a transcendental experience, it is not logical or plausible to assume that their symptoms reflect out of body reality...especially when their experiences are simply the same as others who don't claim it to be transcendental.



"I slipped, and accidentally cut my palm on a can opener, passed out, and saw blood had dripped from the wound"

"I slipped, and accidentally cut my palm on a can opener, passed out, and Christ's blood dripped from the wound!"

How do you know it was Christ's blood and not your own?

Because Christ went into my body while I was looking down at myself, sprawled on the floor, and I could see him bleeding for me.

Oh, OK...sounds plausible.





So, a lot people having the same symptoms while unconscious, doesn't mean that its likely that ONE of them having those symptoms, while unconscious, actually experienced what all the OTHERS dreamed or hallucinated they experienced.



So lots of people who claim to see a white crow, if all are unable to substantiate it, is not a body of evidence...especially if thinking that seeing a white crow would be an expected medical symptom...for a medical condition that they WERE experiencing.

So, there is no "white crow" to point at, and say, well, what about THAT white crow?

Its a flock of hooey.


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Old 12-18-2015, 08:20 PM #6312
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
VisibleGreen: I see someone keeps knocking your reps below 100 every time they can, for someone to go after you more because they don't want your reps to be at 100 or above is too much for me to accept. Fact is, one of the individuals attacking you has a LOWER ratio of posts to positive reps than you do, that says something to me. To me it is the ratio of positive reps to posts which means the most, not the number of reps over a period of years.

My thought is this system shouldn't allow the same person to neg any one individual more than a few times in a year, otherwise it's just a vengeance. Does this rep system foster better relationships and less fighting? I am not sure. Is it fair to allow a member to get so many reps they can inflict so much damage on another member to the point they use it like a weapon against anyone they dislike while at the same time going unchallenged due to having the ability to take away so many reps so easily?



Deniers without having researched the subject for themselves. That isn't uncommon.

I'd be curious to know if other normal colored crows reject this bird or not. I figured a white crow could exist, just never saw a photo of one before, certainly never in my near 60 years living on this rock.
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Old 12-19-2015, 12:13 AM #6313
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Found this HERE:
"Chemist Antoine Lavoisier was one of France's greatest scientists. He discovered oxygen and helped lay the groundwork for modern chemistry. Then he ran afoul of the French revolutionary government and was sentenced to death. Lavoisier had heard stories of disembodied heads saying prayers, looking around, and otherwise showing signs of life for short periods after decapitation. Ever the scientist, he decided that as his last experiment, he would try to demonstrate whether a head could continue to be alive after beheading, and for how long. He told a friend, "Watch my eyes after the blade comes down. I will continue blinking as long as I retain consciousness." The results of the experiment? Lavoisier blinked for about 15 seconds."

Most of the internet searches I found were inconclusive on sources but most agreed on the above character and storyline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Not sure if this is true or not but I remember hearing that some people were asked to blink their eyes after getting beheaded by the guillotine and some actually did. Anyone else heard of that?

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Old 12-19-2015, 12:35 AM #6314
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OVNI View Post
Found this HERE:
"Chemist Antoine Lavoisier was one of France's greatest scientists. He discovered oxygen and helped lay the groundwork for modern chemistry. Then he ran afoul of the French revolutionary government and was sentenced to death. Lavoisier had heard stories of disembodied heads saying prayers, looking around, and otherwise showing signs of life for short periods after decapitation. Ever the scientist, he decided that as his last experiment, he would try to demonstrate whether a head could continue to be alive after beheading, and for how long. He told a friend, "Watch my eyes after the blade comes down. I will continue blinking as long as I retain consciousness." The results of the experiment? Lavoisier blinked for about 15 seconds."

Most of the internet searches I found were inconclusive on sources but most agreed on the above character and storyline.
Wow good work on the research! That must have been the experiments I heard about but wherever I heard it from was too vague to know more about it. I don't even remember when I heard it but it just stuck in the back of my mind.

That man was definitely as dedicated of a scientist as anyone could get. He saw his own death sentence as a chance to prove his experiments. Although I can't imagine anyone could say a prayer without lungs. Maybe the mouth was moving and they assumed it was a prayer.

I wonder what kind of shock a person suffers from when their head is severed. Maybe some people die instantly because of the severing of the spinal cord is too much for them and maybe some people are able to remain conscience and even function like Lavoisier did. To not instantly die from such a thing must be the worst experience a person can have.
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:04 AM #6315
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

A karate chop to the jugular or curated, which ever one is on a persons left side can knock them unconscious just from pressure shock, a guillotine blow could knock someone cold before oxygen deprivation.

The brain may be alive for 3 minutes and dreaming as all the connections are lost, but recovery without blood pressure is unlikely.

Even hangings that are actually designed to break the neck usually rendered instant unconscious, I won't show any clips.





I have watches some beheadings ( curiosity ) and the mouth moves as it's happening, but once severed there's nothing beyond a couple seconds.

It seems the brain is very sensitive to blood pressure loss, I think the brain can dream, but as far as conscious reactions, 15 seconds could be possible.

Maybe have someone who engages in auto ****** asphiation wear a temple pulse monitor, the ones who die didn't mean too, they just went too far.
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:15 AM #6316
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

No not the worst. I know I posted this once before somewhere but I will post it again for those who don't know about this. This documentary is 75 years old, about experiments done by Russian scientists that started in 1939. WARNING YOU WILL FIND THIS DISTURBING, SENSITIVE VIEWERS PLEASE DO NOT WATCH! The video is 20 minutes long, "Experiments in the Revival of Organisms":



Don't think that this research didn't continue to humans. There is research underway now in Russia to keep human brains alive because they plan on one day being able to transplant a human brain into a fully artificial body allowing the person to live far beyond a normal human lifespan. There is also research underway in preparation for the first human head transplant. There is research and experiments that must be done to make this possible.

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Old 12-19-2015, 04:05 AM #6317
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Its all likely.

The brain is just an organ...and while cutting the nerves, blood supply, etc is going to mean the end comes, the brain should continue to function for a short period after being severed from the body.

Because we evolved from fish, etc, some nerves for speech (larengial, etc), run from the brain, down the neck, weave through the heart/lung area, and THEN go back up through the neck to the voice box controls, etc.

That means speech, even if there WAS air to blow over the cords, would be impossible.

Blinking, which can occur involuntarily, can happen too, but it would not surprise me if a few seconds of purposeful blinking would be doable before the lack of blood pressure would black them out.

Transplants of heads, brains, etc, are on the horizon.

Those guys who had their heads cryogenically preserved are counting on it.

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Old 12-19-2015, 04:45 AM #6318
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Cyp's statement triggered me to think of one of my favorite quotes from Arthur C. Clarke (his 3rd Law as some like to call it): Source

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Aliens, governments, metaphysics, ... ... physics, religion, ...

Want to find where all the spooky stuff is being worked on, look for the organizations with "Advanced Technology" in their title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
...And if it doesn't manifest in reality, it's existence is indistinguishable from its nonexistence.

Last edited by OVNI; 12-19-2015 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:19 AM #6319
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Some are 100% materialists, in their own world view at least.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:32 AM #6320
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
...There is also research underway in preparation for the first human head transplant...
Found Here:
"The recipient will be kept in a coma for around 3-4 weeks, says Dr. Canavero, during which time the spinal cord will be subject to electrical stimulation via implanted electrodes in order to boost the new nerve connections. ... The surgeon estimates that - with the help of physical therapy - the patient would be able to walk within 1 year."

Yikes!

It took me 2-years of rehab (physical therapy) for 2 ACL reconstructions just 3 years ago to be able to squat all the way down to ground level to pet my cats - they missed that.

Last edited by OVNI; 12-19-2015 at 06:09 AM. Reason: Rearranged
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