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Old 10-28-2015, 07:56 PM #6225
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I do not see them as an analgous, between them there is a line of justified action and non-justified action. I see your moral compass as broken for not seeing that, you see mine as undeveloped. We're at an impasse, no need to sigh about it.


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Old 10-28-2015, 08:33 PM #6226
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I do not see them as an analgous, between them there is a line of justified action and non-justified action. I see your moral compass as broken for not seeing that, you see mine as undeveloped. We're at an impasse, no need to sigh about it.
No, the sigh was an actual sigh.

You are perhaps talking about JUSTIFIED actions, as opposed to moral acts as objective?


IE: Thou shall not kill, unless you are a cop or soldier, etc (subjective aspects).

As opposed to thou shall not kill, period (objective aspects)


Forget the analogies, just clarify if you are really discussing justified (subjective) vs moral (objective), and if you think there are any objective morals in real life.

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Old 10-28-2015, 11:26 PM #6227
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I was really planning on staying out of this thread after all this craziness. I just have to ask, have any of you actually been in a situation where you have to make a split second call on life or death?? not just for your self but also for your teammates (brothers)? or anything like that?
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:04 AM #6228
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
I was really planning on staying out of this thread after all this craziness. I just have to ask, have any of you actually been in a situation where you have to make a split second call on life or death?? not just for your self but also for your teammates (brothers)? or anything like that?
That's a great question, not religion or belief based, but I think it should add some perspective to the concept of making the moral judgements involving these types of scenarios.


Of course, the hypothetical scenarios are really testing what is moral, less moral or more moral...not whether you'd know how to switch a train's track in the second or so before it hits someone, etc...and have the presence of mind to actually perform under that kind of pressure.

I have been in scenarios where there were life/death situations, and when people's actions were critical to protection of the individual or group.

I think the average person's reaction to an impending accident/collision/shooting/fire etc, is mostly screaming and/or turning away or covering their eyes, etc, to not see it, based upon the work I do.

Those in professions where the events are more common, they tend to react in the "If I have a hammer, I see problems as nails" sort of way...and are more matter of fact about it, and tend to react in whatever way they were trained/accustomed to.

So, bystanders/victims tend to freak out, and the responders, etc, tend to be pretty cool, as that's why they are there typically, etc.

Some responders might have an emotional reaction after they get home/later on, if things were especially grisly/upsetting. I had a very delayed response after spending months straight at the twin tower 9-11 site...I was fine when there, and cried like a baby when I had a break for the first time months later....watching it on TV. The sheer volume of body parts and gore and carnage, friends lost, etc, I had been barraged with for those months, was hitting me all at once because I had not been letting it in while working.

2 days later, I was back, and, again, it was "ok", the emotions had had their release, and it was back to work.

A year later I cried at a benefit for the rescue dogs, as sniffing through that dust killed almost all of them. Only the ones working in mostly wet areas where the dust was better suppressed survived.......it was sad.

But, again, overall, the better prepared you are, the less traumatic and paralyzing the events, and the more likely you'll keep a cool head and do what you need to.

The scarier moments are when someone in your group/team panics, or, more commonly, makes a bad decision, and you know it can lead to a rapidly escalating situation, and you need to get it back under control w/o showing vulnerability/weakening the team.

Group dynamics are tricky, as there are so many variables...and they happen fast in emergency situations.

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Old 10-29-2015, 02:36 AM #6229
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Actually peoples reactions now a days is to pull out a cell phone and record someone being beaten or shot while screaming worldstar! And yes you are correct! "If I have a hammer, I see problems as nails" It's a way of life! Every speed bump should be treated as such! You can not say what you think you will do in a situation that involves life or death and honestly think, "that's the way it will happen" or "its the way" you will react if you haven't been in that situation or have training! Its human instinct to freeze up when the mind can not process what is happening. Example, if you are walking down the street and hear gun shots you will duck! Or if you see a car headed in your direction you move, unless it happens to fast! your brain can not send the "oh shit" signal fast enough to react. That is Unless you have muscle memory (training) to aid you in that or other situations! Hope this makes sense! going on 32 hours with no sleep haha spent most of the day looking for a dam blimp! Thanks Oboma
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:44 AM #6230
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
I was really planning on staying out of this thread after all this craziness. I just have to ask, have any of you actually been in a situation where you have to make a split second call on life or death?? not just for your self but also for your teammates (brothers)? or anything like that?
As discussed here, fortunately no, but I would make a decision, hopefully not the wrong one. The case of the train driver is special because the driver of a train, or pilot of an aircraft, captain of a ship, bus driver, or even driver of truck or car is not only responsible for any passengers, but is responsible for preventing loss of life due to his actions or in the event of an accident. It is clear that Teej should not be licensed to operate any vehicle of any kind because he would not make an effort to minimize the loss of life in the event of an accident!!!

A firefighter has a responsibility to try to save whatever lives he can if there are people in a burning building, that is his job, he may at some point have to make a choice, that is just the reality of the job, there's no way around it.

A doctor can't kill a healthy person to harvest their organs to save others. If the heathy person agreed to give his life to save others then I would have no problem with that, but that isn't even legal anyway. There could be a case where two people are in the ER about to die and need surgery but there is only one OR available at that time, so the doctor has to choose one or loose them both. This is just the reality of daily life, the doctor would only be wrong if he couldn't choose and lost them both.

I know in the military there are some situations that can happen, my father who served 21 years once told me of an incident of a plane that went down and the pilot bailed out only to see the plane crash into an apartment building. There was an incident of this somewhere here in the U.S. in the 80's or 90's but that's not what I am talking about. This was in Europe probably in the 1950's, the pilot never got over this, he could have gone down with the plane and probably avoided the loss of life, did he do the wrong thing? I would say no he wasn't responsible for the loss of life that happened. He did what he was trained to do and probably didn't have enough time anyway when things suddenly went wrong. There was also at least one case of a pilot going down with the plane to avoid just such a disaster. Now let's consider a case where there are 6 guys on the ground in Syria shooting it out with Islamic State forces and suddenly a grenade lands among them, if they all try to run, 3 are killed, 2 are wounded, and one gets away, an alternative is one guy could throw himself on the grenade sacrificing his life saving the other five. That would be an honorable thing to do to give your life to save others, but if they all ran then they still did nothing wrong because that would be the normal response.

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Old 10-29-2015, 12:47 PM #6231
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Alan,

I didn't say what to do, I asked if it were moral.

Your opinion is that you personally have the right to murder someone if you think their murder is justified.

I'm not saying you can't do that, I'm asking if it is moral.



Think of it this way:


You are faced with a healthy person, and two unhealthy ones who would live only if you kill the one person to get parts.

You are faced with running over one healthy person to not run over two healthy people.

I too would hit the one to not hit the two I think, but, I would not be OK with it, because I will have chosen to murder an innocent man.

The operation version SEEMS different to everyone, but, its actually the same problem...

....Is it ok for YOU to decide who lives, and, who dies?



For the surgery, if you do nothing, the sick ones die, and the healthy one lives. (More die, but you did not choose who)

For the train, if you do nothing, the ones in its path die, and the one not in its path lives. (More die, but you did not choose who)




So, you and most people, instinctively feel the train, as the instrument of death, is somehow different than the scalpel as the instrument of death, and yet in both cases, you are purposefully killing a man, because it lets other men live.


So why is it "ok" to hit the healthy guy on the track, and not the healthy guy in the hospital?

In both cases, YOU kill a guy who would have lived, rationalizing that it was better if only he died.

Think about it.



In reality, they are the same scenario...with the shade of difference being only the intimacy of the method.




Taking away the time and distance aspects of the murders, they are essentially the same rational to do it or not (Its better to kill only one of them than 2, etc)...but add the time and distance, and the surgery seems so much more of a problem, because we are hardwired to find it easier to kill remotely.

So, whether we would do one or the other is not the point being illustrated, the point is about whether YOU have the RIGHT to take the life of a man who would have lived.




Maybe DOING IT would BE a better decision, for the ones who lived certainly...but was it FAIR?

The quick answer for most people simply says the remote kill is OK and the surgery is not, but, again, really think about the rationale involved to kill with the train, and why the hospital guy GETS TO be asked about consent, and the track guy doesn't?

Other than logistics (time and distance), there's no difference.


Sophie's Choice, etc, can illustrate the agony over having two horrifically bad choices and picking the least worse...but, the least worse one is not magically turned into a good one because it wasn't the worst one.


So, you might choose to do a "less damaging" choice, but, it may be immoral to kill an innocent man because YOU decided that its better that HE die, so another might live.



IE: You are Rationalizing/Justifying murder. This is not an unusual act. If a soldier, its your job. If a cop, its your job, etc. If threatened, or protecting your family, its your job to do so.

The line under consideration is if its OK to kill someone who is not posing a threat, and why its OK to kill them with a train but not a scalpel.




-------------

Example of logistical tightening:


In a battle field hospital, 3 men are brought in for surgery. The surgeon has mere moments before 2 of them might die, the third can be treated and released. If the surgeon takes the organs of the third man, he will be able to save the two more critically injured, if he doesn't, the two men will die in a matter of minutes. It would mean sacrificing the one man, to save the two.

The surgeon has mere seconds to decide before it was too late, and decides its better that two live than one, and decides to save the two men.

If he does nothing, 3 men came in, only one lives...and two die.

If he operates immediately, 3 men come in and two live...and only one dies.


He had seconds to react: save the two by sacrificing the third...OR LET TWO DIE INSTEAD OF ONE.



Was he wrong to save the two men?

--------------






Another classic is the suffocated baby.

A group is hiding from a band of enemies who will kill them all if they find them, and, the group has a crying baby that would give away the hiding place.

The mother puts her hand across the baby's face to smother the crying, and it suffocates and dies.

It was wrong to kill the baby, but, it was not intentional, as keeping it quiet was the intent, and the suffocation was an unintended/undesired consequence.

So, while its wrong to kill your baby, its justified in the subjective sense.

Its this justification of morals, which are subjective by nature, that leads to these various interpretations of what is justified or not.


If morals were objective, and thou shall not kill was an objective moral, the baby would have to be allowed to cry, and, you could not do the operation to save the sick people at the hospital, or change tracks on the train.




Many think morals are objective, something is either right, or wrong.

Conceptually, they SHOULD be, but, in real life, there ARE conditions, and, it always comes down to an interpretation of the impact of the conditions.

Having morals be subjective and not objective is sometimes incorrectly viewed as meaning "Anything goes"...as they incorrectly assume that no one is able to MAKE those interpretations.

In real life, that's EXACTLY what people do.

For example, "Thou shall not kill" seems to be a straightforward ban on killing, it says so right in the bible. It SOUNDS objective.

And, yet, even in the bible, killing is OK, and, people have been in wars, police actions, and diverting trains to kill innocent people w/o a problem.

Making it, yes, subjective.

The fact is, we, generally, as a species, do the right thing, or at least what we feel is the right thing. (Sure, its a bell curve)

Most think their morals are objective, and yet, because every single one of them requires a context and interpretation, all are actually subjective.

This is how and why two opposing armies can fight each other, and both feel god is on their side. Love them, and shoot them seem to be in conflict as two opposite actions for example, and, yet, the bible says to love others as Jesus loved you...and, then, also justifies killing them.



The entire process we undertake in our minds, to TELL if what we see as a moral applies or not, is subjective.

It would ONLY be objective if it were unconditional.





We therefore are already deciding, ourselves, what is moral, and, what is not, regardless of what it says in the bible.

If it says to love others, we do, or don't, depending upon the circumstances...we might justify killing them instead for example.

If it says not to kill, we might justify killing them instead for example.


So, subjective morals are the only kind that exist in real life, because (BECAUSE) we apply whatever conditions we think make sense, anyway.

That is NOT the same as "If there are no objective morals, and if moral are subjective, then anything goes"...


...As we, as a species at least, are already doing what WE THINK is right, regardless of what the bible says anyway. It SAYS you can't kill. It SAYS to love others. We THINK ITS RIGHT for a soldier TO kill, or a cop, or a man defending his family, etc.





WE apply the conditions that WE THINK are valid exceptions.

WE throw out the biblical mandates that WE THINK are no longer valid. WE keep the biblical mandates that WE THINK are still valid.


We behave, in other words, as WE SEE as moral.


This can lead to some strange interpretations of course, such as "We have a kind, compassionate and loving god, who hates fags". How can a person hold these seemingly conflicting viewpoints?

Simple, interpret the bible in a way that supports what you believe. Ignore the parts that make no sense, and reinforce the weight of things that do support what you believe...and any source can then be used to support what you believe....as long as it contains enough conflicting admonitions.













Some feel its immoral to go naked in public, say, those raised in NYC. Some feel its fine to go naked in public, say, peoples raised in the Amazon rain forest.

Some feel it is immoral to show a woman's lips in public, say, in Saudi Arabia. Some feel its fine, such as back in NYC.

Some feel its immoral to show a nipple, some feel its OK...and so forth. ALL these peoples consider "what shows" to be a moral issue...until you get to those who don't.


The people who are OK with lips freak out if they see nips. The people who are OK with nips, freak at genitalia. Those ok with genitalia think those who cover them for no apparent reason are weird....and so forth.


How did what shows become an issue of right vs wrong?






Adam and Eve's FIRST thoughts when able to tell right from wrong, was TO COVER THEMSELVES.


Why was that an issue of right vs wrong, and not based upon, say, the local weather conditions?



The bible's moral authority, in modern times, is simply a reflection of current mores. People will, as a tendency, do what they think is right.


Sure, there are those who do what is wrong too...and, the prisons are full of them.






Proportionally, the prisioners are almost all religious, ironically. As a proportion, for every religious person in a population, a higher percentage of that population will be in prison.

The percentages, relative to the population at large, of atheists in prison, is statistically about zero. (An insignificant number compared to the population)

The percentages of religious people in prison, statistically, is closer to 100%. (The vast majority - compared to the population)







So, statistically, HAVING the bible as a moral compass meant going to prison, and, NOT having it meant NOT going to prison.


So, either atheists, as a group, are smarter, and simply don't get caught, or, they are not committing as many crimes relative to their total population.







As the TYPE of intelligence required to BE an atheist is not necessarily the type of intelligence to not get caught, I would not assume that atheists are somehow simply too smart to get caught, and that, instead, they are simply less likely to commit crimes.

The religious in prisons "Know Jesus Loves Them", and that they can ask for forgiveness, and, they will be forgiven.

The atheists know there is no hell, or punishment after death, or rewards for ignoring facts, after death. They KNOW that this life is all they have, and, they act accordingly.



IE: Those people who are moral, act morally, whether they think it gets them anything later or not.

Those who only act morally because they think they'll be punished if they don't, and rewarded if they do...will do anything at all, as long as they think they can get away with it.





This may be why those who only behave morally because they think they'll be punished or rewarded, assume others would also be immoral, if they, too, thought they could get away with it.







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Old 11-01-2015, 12:40 AM #6232
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

this thread gives me a migrain....& aside from that-- no comment.
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Old 11-01-2015, 02:00 AM #6233
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by hakzaw1 View Post
this thread gives me a migrain....& aside from that-- no comment.
It doesn't belong here. It needs to stop.
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Old 11-01-2015, 06:04 AM #6234
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Off-Topic > Other
Anything not related to lasers or laser pointers.

So... This is exactly where it belongs.
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Old 11-01-2015, 12:08 PM #6235
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

People who have cognitive dissonance migraines, and who are very upset when they read things that don't support their worldview, probably should not read this thread, as it will cause the associated symptoms.

IE: When people who believe in god, and people who do not believe in god, present evidence that supports their beliefs, the people who believe in god, for some reason, always want the process stopped.

A debate about it never goes their way, because their evidence is not compelling to anyone who uses logic properly.

Those not believing in a god always do fine in these debates, because there not being a god or gods simply is a more logical conclusion.

As a belief in the supernatural is of course impossible to prove, the theists present their evidence, and the atheists then show why all of their evidence is invalid.

The theists then get all upset or frustrated, and want the entire debate deleted.




If someone who believed in gods had a valid argument, and presented it, the debate would go THEIR way...and, they would not need it deleted.

By not deleting it, it gives voice to a dissenting position, a position which is normally silenced in society...as theists tend to vilify atheists.

They claim atheists have no morals, they claim atheists only care about themselves, they claim atheists do evil things because they don't think there's a hell to be punished for them, or a heaven to reward them for being righteous.

They claim atheists are responsible for assorted government's atrocities. They claim atheists actually believe in god, but think that atheists pretend not to, to have an excuse to sin.

And so forth...those who believe in god spread lies and misconceptions about those who don't believe that gods exist and/or in the supernatural.

Those who believe in god spread lies and deceptions about how the world works, such as how old things are, how they evolved, our place in the cosmos or universe, if it is in conflict with their supernatural beliefs.

Those believing in the supernatural will even force innocent children to be taught lies about biology, physics, history, cosmology, and even science itself. In areas where religion is allowed in, we see arab children taught that the Jews murdered millions of innocent Germans in the Holocaust, and then how the Jews lied and said it was the Germans killing them to get international sympathy.

We see teachers telling students that there was a global flood, and an ark with dinosaurs on it.

We see indoctrination that the scientific method is invalid, and that faith is more important.

Essentially, we see that areas where religion has been allowed to dilute a child's education with the supernatural, that the students cannot compete, and their quality of life is compromised...along with the planet's brain trust.

That shortage of competent scientists in the US for example means we have to import them from countries/areas where supernatural causes for things are not taught in school.


So, when atheists present the evidence of these things, and explain how morals are not tied solely to Bronze Age writings, and that they have always existed for us, and always will, the theists get very upset, feel they are being attacked, and want it all censured.

If a Muslim doesn't feel comfortable saying Merry Xmas, Christians can react as though Christmas is under attack.

And so forth. Christians, especially in the US for example, find any concession to another religion's feelings to be "Political Correctness", always said with a finger quote or other way of demonstrating that they don't feel its really warranted.

If a group slights THEM in any way though, they are up in arms immediately.

And so forth. They get to say and do whatever they want, and to squelch dissenting opinions...in most venues.

Hearing a dissenting opinion is even too much..."they were attacked"...and counter.

Atheists are subject to that "attack" philosophy on a daily basis. Most keep quiet to avoid stirring the hornet's nest.

HERE, in an off topic forum, within a sub-group of intelligent people, a venue was created for ALL sides to present how they feel, and discuss it.

As usual, the only one's who want it shut down, are threatened Christians.


They have no tolerance for open discussion unless it goes their way. If they are losing a debate, or are told why their argument is invalid, they then claim the discussion was disrespectful of their supernatural beliefs, and must be deleted, etc.

If you think you presented a valid argument, and that the other side's argument was not compelling, why delete it?

Because dissenting opinions are "disrespectful"? ("Blasphemy")







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Old 11-01-2015, 01:50 PM #6236
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

On a new area for exploration, I was thinking about Spinoza and our very own Alaskan.

Spinoza was excommunicated by the Jews, not the Christians, but also for questioning the nature of god.



"To be what we are, and to become what we
are capable of becoming, is the only end of life."

"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand."




Spinoza's metaphysics of God is neatly summed up in a phrase that occurs in the Latin (but not the Dutch) edition of the Ethics:

"God, or Nature", Deus, sive Natura: "That eternal and infinite being we call God, or Nature, acts from the same necessity from which he exists" (Part IV, Preface).

It is an ambiguous phrase, since Spinoza could be read as trying either to divinize nature or to naturalize God. But for the careful reader there is no mistaking Spinoza's intention. The friends who, after his death, published his writings must have left out the "or Nature" clause from the more widely accessible Dutch version out of fear of the reaction that this identification would, predictably, arouse among a vernacular audience.

There are, Spinoza insists, two sides of Nature. First, there is the active, productive aspect of the universe — God and his attributes, from which all else follows. This is what Spinoza, employing the same terms he used in the Short Treatise, calls Natura naturans, "naturing Nature". Strictly speaking, this is identical with God. The other aspect of the universe is that which is produced and sustained by the active aspect, Natura naturata, "natured Nature".


I'd say he was one of the earliest recorded thinkers along these lines.

According to Hegal, if you are not a Spinozist, you are not a philosopher.




AND



http://www.yoism.org/?q=node/11




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Old 11-01-2015, 05:53 PM #6237
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

every time I get asked this question this is how I answer. Without the scientist part! tell me this! is a world renowned physicist a bad person because he doesn't "believe"??

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Old 11-01-2015, 07:51 PM #6238
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
every time I get asked this question this is how I answer. Without the scientist part! tell me this! is a world renowned physicist a bad person because he doesn't "believe"??

Many of the religions refer to being bad or good, but, forgive sins EXCEPT not believing...or, questioning belief.

So, they say a great, kind, caring person who was a force for good, would go to hell for example, UNLESS he or she ALSO believed in their version of god.


Its not enough to believe in god, it must be their god, and, it ALSO must be their VERSION of what that god requires.

So, the Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same Old Testament god.

He is called Allah (Which is merely how to say god in arabic), or Yahweh in Hebrew, or Jesus's Dad, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, etc.

Some then insist you go to hell if you believe that Jesus was a separate being, existing after his father, and, others insist you go to hell if you do NOT believe he was a separate being who existed after his father.

And so forth.

ALL these sects insist ONLY THEY have the "True Path", and everyone ELSE is wrong.


ALL of them believe that the other versions are wrong. Essentially, the Catholics believe that the protestants are going to hell, the protestants believe the catholics are going to hell, the jews are not sure those guys are going to hell or not, but, ARE sure that none are going to heaven, with THEM...and so forth.

So, if Catholicism was the only religion, and you didn't believe it, you might be an agnostic or atheist, or deist, etc.

You might be labeled an acatholic.

Catholics would want to convince you that your acatholicism was wrong, and to accept their teachings as true.

You might end up commiserating with other acatholics about how to get the catholics to leave you alone.

They'd tell you that YOUR RELIGION was acatholicsm.

You'd try to explain that that's not a religion, its NOT believing, not a belief.

They'd insist that it was, because you believed that catholicism was wrong.

You'd point out there's no word for not believing other stuff, or for someone who DOESN'T collect stamps, etc...but..

Catholics would not get it....you're either with'm, or, against'm.

And so forth.


Tyson is actually a self proclaimed agnostic, not an atheist.

He doesn't believe there's a god, but, says if evidence of god becomes available, and its convincing, he'd believe.

That's true for all atheists I know as well, its just the evidence has not been forthcoming....and, it isn't expected.

If I saw compelling evidence, I too would absolutely consider it.

I would not necessarily WORSHIP that god, given what I know about it so far...but, I would not be an atheist if there was evidence of gods existing.

That is essentially Tyson's stance as well.

I call myself an atheist, as until I see otherwise, I don't believe there are gods.

He calls himself an agnostic, because, to him, atheists defend their beliefs, and, he doesn't want to have to spend the effort on that.

He DOES spend his effort on trying to prevent theists from destroying the future by inhibiting science...as that's where his priorities are, promoting how the cosmos works, and making sure people's natural curiosity is not killed by being told "god did it", and not trying to figure out the real answers.

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Old 11-01-2015, 08:48 PM #6239
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
Off-Topic > Other
Anything not related to lasers or laser pointers.

So... This is exactly where it belongs.
Wrong. This thread breaks virtually every rule on this forum so no Mr. Warne this thread does not belong here.
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Old 11-01-2015, 08:55 PM #6240
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm inclined to agree with green on this! This thread seems like it brings out the worst in people just like............???
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