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Old 10-28-2015, 03:07 AM #6209
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
That means stop, and re-read it to see what you're missing.
I say the same to you. The issue is one situation requires murder, the other does not, therefore back on post #6206, where Cyp infers Pi's answers to the analogies as different answers to the same question is flawed.


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Old 10-28-2015, 03:10 AM #6210
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej is now my new hero!
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:13 AM #6211
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

They are not even remotely similar! One would be unethical and wrong and would be murder. The train is much different, you would save the lives of four people. It would be different if you could ask the one guy on the tracks for his permission, or if you know any of the people on the tracks then you can be excused for making the wrong decision. If you can't see the difference then you have a very warped sense of right and wrong.

In the case of the surgeon, he doesn't have the right to make this decision, the healthy guy has to decide if he will sacrifice himself to save the lives of the other five.

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Old 10-28-2015, 03:15 AM #6212
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I honestly feel like this is simple common sense or logic!
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:16 AM #6213
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I say the same to you. The issue is one situation requires murder, the other does not, therefore back on post #6206, where Cyp infers Pi's answers to the analogies as different answers to the same question is flawed.
BOTH require murder.

One on the track is murdering the man who would have lived by diverting the train to his track.

The operation is murdering the healthy guy to save the 5 sick ones.

They are both murder.


Both ask if you'd kill the one guy to save the 5.

If you divert the track to the one guy, you are murdering that man.

If you remove the healthy man's organs to save the 5 who need them, you are murdering him.


People with a less than fully developed moral compass will see the track as not murder though...as "its the train killing him" not them directly.


This is also why its harder to kill someone at close quarters with a knife or rock, than to press a button and have a missile do it, etc....we feel less connected to the act.


A well developed sense of morality will connect the act to the initiator of the act though. The less developed will still be counting how many cookies broke.

Snidely Whiplash is guilty of murder unless someone unties his helpless heroine from the tracks before the train gets there, etc.



I was hoping it was analogies that were the problem, but, I suppose that wasn't it.

On the plus side, a person's ability with this sort of problem is supposed to get better as they get older, so, one day...there is hope.

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Old 10-28-2015, 03:38 AM #6214
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
People with a less than fully developed moral compass will see the track as not murder though.
It is you who have far less than a fully developed moral compass! Something I have long suspected would be common with atheists. You clearly value human life less than I do.

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Old 10-28-2015, 03:45 AM #6215
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I agree with you Alan.

Under Teej morals...

A firefighter with time to only enter one building is headed to burning building "A" to save one person, but he decides instead to go to burning building "B" and save five people. After he is recognized for his heroism Teej will then charge him with murder. That's a broken moral compass, not a developed one.
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:46 AM #6216
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It is you who have far less than a fully developed moral compass! Something I have long suspected would be common with atheists. You clearly value human life less than I do.

Alan
I disagree with that bud. My self, most of my family and friends are "atheists"
I value life as much as I value my own. Yet I agree with most of what teej is saying. I don't understand why so many people think "we" have zero morals or regard for life! which couldn't be more far from the truth. I as many others do, value logic and common sense. Does this make me any less of a man or good person as a religious man or women??
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:07 AM #6217
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
I disagree with that bud. My self, most of my family and friends are "atheists"
I value life as much as I value my own. Yet I agree with most of what teej is saying. I don't understand why so many people think "we" have zero morals or regard for life! which couldn't be more far from the truth. I as many others do, value logic and common sense. Does this make me any less of a man or good person as a religious man or women??
That makes no sense at all that you value life as much as your own if you would run over 5 people instead of 1. It is logic and common sense to run over 1 and not 5. If you really believe you should run over the 5 and not 1, then yes it does make you less of a man or good person. It makes you a dangerous person.

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Old 10-28-2015, 04:09 AM #6218
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
That makes no sense at all that you value life as much as your own if you would run over 5 people instead of 1. It is logic and common sense to run over 1 and not 5. If you really believe you should run over the 5 and not 1, then yes it does make you less of a man or good person. It makes you a dangerous person.

Alan
whoa wtf are we talking about here?????????????? I did not see that! Nor would I EVER agree with something like that!
I was referring to something else!
I am now staying out of this thread! Some of y'all need to have cat scans done ASAP!!!!!!!!!! I'll stick to being happy and positive in other threads.
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500MW 532 PLE-PRO
180MW 532 EBAY OVERKILL


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Old 10-28-2015, 04:10 AM #6219
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
That makes no sense at all that you value life as much as your own if you would run over 5 people instead of 1. It is logic and common sense to run over 1 and not 5. If you really believe you should run over the 5 and not 1, then yes it does make you less of a man or good person. It makes you a dangerous person.

Alan
Yeah if you have no other way of avoiding those deaths you have to try your best to minimize the loss of life.

It's why I always tell people to hit that squirrel rather than cause your entire car to loose control and possibly kill everyone in your car and the other cars around you.

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Old 10-28-2015, 04:28 AM #6220
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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whoa wtf are we talking about here?????????????? I did not see that! Nor would I EVER agree with something like that!
I was referring to something else!
I am now staying out of this thread! Some of y'all need to have cat scans done ASAP!!!!!!!!!! I'll stick to being happy and positive in other threads.
Ok am glad to hear that, I feel better about you now.

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Yeah if you have no other way of avoiding those deaths you have to try your best to minimize the loss of life.

It's why I always tell people to hit that squirrel rather than cause your entire car to loose control and possibly kill everyone in your car and the other cars around you.


Alan
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:30 AM #6221
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Ok am glad to hear that, I feel better about you now.





Alan
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:06 PM #6222
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Talking

If you consider that, in your moral world, it is required to kill one man to save five...

...you are essentially saying that you believe you have the right to distribute people's lives as you see fit.


IE: You would, purposefully, direct a train at a man, and kill him, if it saved 5 men.


You would, purposefully, kill a man to take his organs, and give them to five other men.

That is what you consider moral.


That would imply several analogous scenarios...

For example:

You would have at least filled out an organ donor card or your vicinities' equivalent, so that if you are killed, the hospital has the right to remove your eyes, liver, kidney, skin, etc, for use in transplants to save others.

If you are in a hospital, and you find out 5 guys will die because they need transplants, you would kill yourself so they could have them...or, kill someone else to harvest their organs, etc.

Conceptually, it would also imply that you feel that those with more, must share it...as you feel that if one can save 5, whatever the one has should be distributed to the 5. They do not have to consent to sharing, it should be taken from them by force.


IE: The rights of the ONE are trumped by the rights of the MANY.


That would also imply that the use of suicide bombers is justified, as they are sacrificing themselves for the greater good (In their world).

And so forth.


If you see the world that way, a world in which its moral to kill someone because you want what they have/it helps someone else....OK, I guess that's your world.


I'd rather live somewhere where its not ok to murder people.


Yes, the math works...that's the simple view.

But, that math, for example, would also say we MUST consider the many people dying because they need a kidney, and simply take one of yours, as you had two, and only need one...so we can just take the extra whether you want to donate it or not.

Simple math. You don't donate, the other guy dies, so, you donate a kidney and he lives. You don't donate a kidney, and he dies.

So, obviously, you donate a kidney.

If you don't, its morally required that we take your kidney from you, because the math says its better for two people to have one, than for one person to have 2, and the other, none.

Oh, wait, we need two, and you have two...so we could save two if we take BOTH your kidneys. (Still "saves two" - and who says your life is worth more than one of the saved guy's?)


And so forth.




I disagree with it being moral, and agree that the math works.

The math version of morality is where we are obligated to murder people, if the math dictates the outcome's morality, and, I think that morally, murder is wrong.

It doesn't matter if you use a train or a scalpel to commit the murder.


If you want to talk about more vs less right, as in which is MORE wrong, etc, that's another story.


IE: You are driving along and a group of 5 children walk out between parked cars and you will either hit them, or swerve into a group of 4 children who are on the sidewalk.

You decide you'd rather kill 4 than 5, and kill the 4 children on the sidewalk.

You are charged with killing the 4 kids.

You explain, to their parents, that you had to kill their children, because there were fewer of them on the sidewalk than in the street.

You intentionally killed THEIR children.

Do you think that the parents of the dead children will agree with you doing the right thing?


So, maybe the math works out so its better to kill 4 than 5...it adds up. Its still wrong to kill the 4 though.

The contrived dilemma is, of course, to EXAMINE the morality of the act.

It IS immoral, but, you MIGHT be able to make a case for your JUSTIFICATION.


That is what makes morality subjective, in real life, as there are always conditions that change how right, or wrong, something might be.


There is no "wrong answer" to the question "what would you do?", except if you say you'd do something you wouldn't, etc...as its WHAT YOU would do.

Your answer can be interpreted of course, and, the interpretation can be different, depending upon the people doing the interpretation.

As the examples were textbook examples, and experts have already analyzed the potential outcomes and meanings...anyone can either assume they are more expert in ethics than ethicists, or, that ethicists might know more about ethics than they do, etc.

Many many people who are not experts in a field, believe that they know more than experts in a field...due to various personality traits, and, of course, the occasional relevant genius of a lay person, etc.

That's simply human nature.



----------------------

PS - My brother is dying because he needs a kidney, and mine are too messed up from stone damage, so, the math version of morality, where we could simply grab someone and take the kidney works great, mathematically...but, it would be wrong to do so...in my world.

People die daily due to a lack of transplant donors for various organs. Most people do not fill out the transplant authorizations, and families are approached to do so while in extreme grief, and tend not to.

Using the mandatory excess organ removal you, implicitly, support, there would be a constant supply of organs for transplant, and millions of lives would be saved.....and the hospitals would have beds full of people recovering from having their kidney removed, against their will, etc.

You had a trip planned with your kids? Honeymoon? Big project at work? Sorry, you'll be laid up a while.



How about some cells from a placenta? Its going into the trash, or, being donated to science to develop treatments that could save millions of lives?

Surely the cells could be harvested to save others? And no one is murdered.

And so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I agree with you Alan.

Under Teej morals...

A firefighter with time to only enter one building is headed to burning building "A" to save one person, but he decides instead to go to burning building "B" and save five people. After he is recognized for his heroism Teej will then charge him with murder. That's a broken moral compass, not a developed one.
OW

OK, maybe analagies ARE a problem for you afterall.

OK.

Think of it this way:

1) Lets take away the 5 guys on the other track, and say the train was going down an empty track...and you diverted it to kill the man on the new track.

Did you take an action that killed that man?

The answer is yes.

You chose to kill him.

2) Add any scenario you want to explain why it was OK to murder that one guy by switching the rail to make the train hit him.



He is still killed, by you.



A DIFFERENT theme is the CHOICE between saving two groups or individuals.

Saving who you could is not the same theme as killing someone who would have lived had you done nothing....and only died BECAUSE OF YOUR choice TO kill them.


IE: Two kids are falling over a rail, or trapped in a fire, etc....and you can only grab one.

You didn't choose to kill one, you chose to save one.


If you had to KILL one kid to save the other...that would have been the same theme.


One theme requires you to kill someone, actively...your actions cause someone who WOULD HAVE lived, to die.

The other involves having to choose who to save, from two groups who would both die w/o your actions.


So while there is a tendency to be able to more easily justify killing one to save others...it is still wrong to kill the one.

There is no right/definitive answer as to HOW right/wrong it is...that's completely subjective as well.

Its is, again, why morality in real life is subjective and not objective.


Its also why, your answer as to "what would you do?", is never wrong if you are honest with yourself.



The theme involves examining how much ONE person's consent is worth...as in, YOU are taking it from them, and killing them, because YOU decided if they should live or die.

You BASED your decision on the consequences of their death vs life....and chose to take their life.



Think about how that would play out if applied globally...as a CONCEPT. (OK to kill some for the greater good, etc)


Europe in the Dark Ages, when controlled by the Church, was hit with the Black Plague, and, the responses were essentially to assume that it was punishment for sinning, and people prayed, flagellated themselves, etc...but id didn't work, because that sort of thing doesn't cure infections....and an enormous percentage of the population died....about 50% of the population.

Many lost faith in the church when it was apparent that the church could not help, and, the previous overcrowding was also taken care of by the massive death toll.

This lead to the church losing its control, and the Renaissance ensued, leading to break throughs in science, art, and agriculture...as society worked to figure out how to adapt to the labor shortage, etc.



So, half the population was killed by the plague, and, the other half and their descendants prospered.

It took them out of the dark ages and into a new world, literally and figuratively.


If you knew that in the 1300's, if the plague struck, millions would die a horrific death, but, the survivors would have new wonderful opportunities...but the plague could only happen if YOU purposefully spread it...would you?

Last edited by ped; 10-28-2015 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:53 PM #6223
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The surgeon analogy, train analogy, and firefighter analogy all have something in common. An individual makes a choice which leads to either one dying or five dying. Your distaste for the firefighter version shows how we get from "A" to "B" within the analogy matters and why they are failing when you try to call them equal.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:19 PM #6224
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The surgeon analogy, train analogy, and firefighter analogy all have something in common. An individual makes a choice which leads to either one dying or five dying. Your distaste for the firefighter version shows how we get from "A" to "B" within the analogy matters and why they are failing when you try to call them equal.
Sigh

You are missing the theme.

The firefighter is not choosing to KILL someone who would have otherwise lived.

The others involve choosing to KILL....and to KILL someone who otherwise, WOULD have lived.





Again, that's different.


And

Analogous ≠ Equal


It means analogous....as in sharing a theme, etc.


The theme is not to illustrate whether 5 is more than 1, or not...we all know 5 > 1


The theme is whether its ok to take consent from someone who would have lived, and kill them because you feel killing them is justified to save others....even if they would have wanted to live too.


Not SAVING someone who would have otherwise died, is not the same as killing someone who otherwise would have lived.


Sure, if it were just seeing someone in trouble, and choosing not to help...I ALSO think that that would be wrong. I think its NOT wrong if that presented as TWO people who needed saving, and you could only save one due to the logistics, etc...and you DID save one.


Not being ABLE TO save someone is not the same as murdering them....people die all the time that you have no opportunity to save.

You could make a case for not saving someone you COULD HAVE saved as being immoral...and I'd agree.


But, do YOU have the RIGHT to kill another human being, who, otherwise, would have lived?


Does "Thous Shall Not Kill" translate as "Thou shall kill the lower number of victims as you see fit for the greater good"?

"Love others as I have loved you" = Kill people who would have lived to save those who would have died

Last edited by Teej; 10-28-2015 at 08:31 PM.
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