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Old 10-27-2015, 11:07 AM #6177
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
VG- you're entering into some Highschool dramatics here. Insinuating to people there's more to this beneath the surface? and now this; "I have other people tell me you speak of them behind their backs. I can't exactly prove it but I have no trouble believing it."



Look mate let me spell it out for you because I think your going a bit sideways. We aren't sending PM's to each other coordinating some mastermind plan against you. No ones ganging up and talking behind your back. Why?
CUZ WE'RE ADULTS AND THIS IS AN ONLINE FORUM.
No you look "mate", if you don't like what you're reading then leave. Simple


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Old 10-27-2015, 02:25 PM #6178
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
No you look "mate", if you don't like what you're reading then leave. Simple
I suppose that means that in this thread at least, you like what you're reading.

Sweet.




So, VG, one of the purposes of the thread was to say what you believe.

You mentioned your knowledge of the scriptures, and the proper interpretation of them by your group, who are properly educated.

Do you belong to a religion?

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Old 10-27-2015, 04:35 PM #6179
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Your entire "case" is based on hearsay, and the effort of digging up almost a year of posts to find two mild lapses in policy. You've got nothing, visiblegreen. I don't know why I bothered.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:24 PM #6180
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

why is this even happening? Cant this go back to the topic?
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:43 PM #6181
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
why is this even happening? Cant this go back to the topic?
Some argue the person they are arguing with, some, the content.


You and I would like to stay with the content, and, other than pointing out TO the person(s) the errors or issues with their content, or lack thereof, the objective is still to steer back to content and away from personal friction.

We are all SO much more than what we post in this thread...so, its easy for some to get tunnel vision, and judge people by their posts here...forgetting they are also out there in real life, and, those lives may give a totally different impression of that person if we knew about them.

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Old 10-27-2015, 05:46 PM #6182
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

And, so, back to abortion.

I am truly conflicted about it.



Essentially, I see it as killing someone because you believe that you can't take care of them, they'd ruin your life if you tried to, etc....or, that they are the fruit of a horrific violation, such as a rape, or, medically, having them might kill you, or the docs say the kid will be born with a mutation/defect that would lead to it living a short painful life, etc.


If they'd already been BORN, would killing them STILL be justified for those exact same reasons?


IS THERE an age/level of development where you're not really "killing someone"?


HOW would we determine that?


There should be some point of diminishing return on the concept. I mean, allowing an egg to pass, unfertilized, or sperm to be reabsorbed....or otherwise not the ONE used to fertilize an egg...should not be a crime...that's going too far.

If the sperm chemically starts to burrow into the egg, and doesn't make it, was that a crime?

What about the sperm who didn't make it to the egg, it was too slow...?

The sperm and egg don't stick to the uterine wall....is that a crime scene?

When does it become a crime?

Is preventing someone from being born, in of itself, a crime?


I THINK it should be a crime, for example, to wait for the embryo to develop to the point where its born, finishes medical school, and gets a job as an abortion clinic doctor.

Its BEFORE that, that needs to be better delineated.

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Old 10-27-2015, 06:29 PM #6183
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Tell me, Teej (or anyone else that feels they have something to contribute): Are you for mandatory blood donation? How about mandatory kidney donation, even while living? If you CAN prevent someone else's death by giving them use of your body or body parts, are you REQUIRED to? And is it considered killing them if you withhold the use of your body?

Is consent to ѕex the same as consent to becoming pregnant?

You might say "They got themselves into the situation, so they have to deal with the consequences," but tell me... do we withhold medical treatment from drunk drivers that were recently in a car wreck that killed two other people? Do we turn down hospital admissions for drug abusers? Do we deny chemotherapy for chain-smokers?

Another similar classical dilemma:
There is an unstoppable train speeding along the tracks with 5 people tied to the tracks. You are in a position where you can throw a switch that will divert the train to a second track, with one person tied to the tracks there. Do you throw the switch?

Contrast with:
You are an experienced surgeon. There are 5 people dying of organ failure, and one healthy individual. You can choose to kill the healthy individual, distribute his organs to the 5 dying people and save them. Do you?

Were your answers to these questions the same? Why or why not?
Bonus round: What does the bible tell you to do?
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Last edited by Cyparagon; 10-27-2015 at 06:32 PM. Reason: word-filter dodge
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:58 PM #6184
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
VG- you're entering into some Highschool dramatics here. Insinuating to people there's more to this beneath the surface? and now this; "I have other people tell me you speak of them behind their backs. I can't exactly prove it but I have no trouble believing it."



Look mate let me spell it out for you because I think your going a bit sideways. We aren't sending PM's to each other coordinating some mastermind plan against you. No ones ganging up and talking behind your back. Why?
CUZ WE'RE ADULTS AND THIS IS AN ONLINE FORUM.
After catching up on this thread I have to agree.

You (vg) like to call a lot of people out, but not in any sort of constructive way, it's just petty insults and hypocrisy.
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Old 10-27-2015, 07:29 PM #6185
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
And, so, back to abortion.

I am truly conflicted about it.



Essentially, I see it as killing someone because you believe that you can't take care of them, they'd ruin your life if you tried to, etc....or, that they are the fruit of a horrific violation, such as a rape, or, medically, having them might kill you, or the docs say the kid will be born with a mutation/defect that would lead to it living a short painful life, etc.

I see it the same way, if they would be born with a bad mutation/defect though I am not sure, I would not want to have to make that decision but it will happen.

If they'd already been BORN, would killing them STILL be justified for those exact same reasons?


No except maybe with a bad mutation/defect, again this would be a difficult decision I wouldn't want to have to make.

IS THERE an age/level of development where you're not really "killing someone"?

HOW would we determine that?

There was talk recently of allowing people to terminate their children at up to 3 years! A ridiculous idea, that would be murder. I think once the child is conceived it's probably life at that point.

There should be some point of diminishing return on the concept. I mean, allowing an egg to pass, unfertilized, or sperm to be reabsorbed....or otherwise not the ONE used to fertilize an egg...should not be a crime...that's going too far.

If the sperm chemically starts to burrow into the egg, and doesn't make it, was that a crime?

What about the sperm who didn't make it to the egg, it was too slow...?

The sperm and egg don't stick to the uterine wall....is that a crime scene?

When does it become a crime?

Is preventing someone from being born, in of itself, a crime?

Probably, I would not want to participate in an abortion. Us Christians believe murder is a sin, the bible may tell us something more, the only unforgivable sin in the bible is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, however in first John, speaking about an unrelated subject he says that we all know a murderer has no salvation. What does this mean? We already know that isn't the unforgivable sin, many Christians believe that it means no salvation in this lifetime, meaning that it's decided in the next lifetime if they are forgiven or not. Who knows, maybe the person that was murdered has to forgive them. Back to abortion though, what if you're not just killing one person, what if you're killing all of their offspring they would have had?

I THINK it should be a crime, for example, to wait for the embryo to develop to the point where its born, finishes medical school, and gets a job as an abortion clinic doctor.

Its BEFORE that, that needs to be better delineated.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:12 PM #6186
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Tell me, Teej (or anyone else that feels they have something to contribute): Are you for mandatory blood donation? How about mandatory kidney donation, even while living? If you CAN prevent someone else's death by giving them use of your body or body parts, are you REQUIRED to? And is it considered killing them if you withhold the use of your body?

No, it's your choice, as long as you're alive, your body parts are yours, including your blood.

Is consent to ѕex the same as consent to becoming pregnant?

unprotected yes, protected no.

You might say "They got themselves into the situation, so they have to deal with the consequences," but tell me... do we withhold medical treatment from drunk drivers that were recently in a car wreck that killed two other people? Do we turn down hospital admissions for drug abusers? Do we deny chemotherapy for chain-smokers?

I say no we shouldn't deny them because of their long term mistakes, however with increasing costs and an overburdened medical system they may have to wait longer, even so I think they should get some immediate treatment to at least prevent suffering too much.

Another similar classical dilemma:
There is an unstoppable train speeding along the tracks with 5 people tied to the tracks. You are in a position where you can throw a switch that will divert the train to a second track, with one person tied to the tracks there. Do you throw the switch?

Yes.

Contrast with:
You are an experienced surgeon. There are 5 people dying of organ failure, and one healthy individual. You can choose to kill the healthy individual, distribute his organs to the 5 dying people and save them. Do you?

Not unless the healthy individual agrees to this.

Were your answers to these questions the same? Why or why not?
Bonus round: What does the bible tell you to do?
It doesn't. Gods laws aren't that specific.

Alan
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:41 PM #6187
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You seem to always be on a tangential trajectory....forgetting the context of about every content.

The context was the theory of relativity...and it having the word relative in it, so, as you thought the theory that compared holograms to dimensional projections said we were holograms...I asked if you thought the theory of relativity said we were all related.

To clarify, that is not the same as asking if you thing we are all related...that is a different topic. We agree that we are related.




"Because Science" is your version of implying that science is not valid, as a field?


If you read the posts about this, mere inches above these posts, you would, again, see the context that answered your question.


I will restate the premises for your convenience:

1) Space exists......

I'm sorry I thought you knew I was yanking your chain. Please forgive me I can be a bit of a troll. Though I thought it was obvious. I meant no harm by it though.

Completely serious though. I see it as matter creates spacetime not the other way around. Matter existed but it was infinitely small. There was no "Space". Then when the Rapid Expansion
happened this matter created "Space" and with Gravity and Space you get "Time".


As far as the Cross questions. You are correlating the Crux aka the Southern Cross constellation with the Cross Jesus was Crucified on. The "Pagan" Crux is not the same and does not signify anything other than when to harvest.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:55 PM #6188
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Yeah, those are tough, but, for myself at least...

I think the consequences of an act are reasonable to attach, consent-wise...if reasonably foreseeable.

IE: Unprotected intercourse, yes, I think that while its not an explicit agreement to get pregnant, its is an implicit consequence of concern.

Unless you are so uneducated about *** that you didn't know it was how to get pregnant, the case in some places where the participants are not allowed to know about ***, for cultural reasons, or, due to youth, etc, you should at least be aware that pregnancy can follow intercourse...as a potential outcome.

Of course, the younger the participants, the less likely they consider consequences of actions in general.

That makes consideration of what consent includes a theoretical question.


IE: If they think they won't get pregnant because they were taught that only married people have kids...unprotected intercourse would not be expected to lead to pregnancy.


In some cultures, discussion of *** is so taboo that the participants barely know what's going on or what does what.



For the life/death choices....I can see the MATH work out as to whether to throw the switch...but I don't think I could make someone who would have lived, die, by sacrificing them for the others.

Same for organs and blood.


My own feeling is to treat others as I would want them to treat me.

So, throwing a switch/operating is treating the one guy that way, but not the other 5, and visa versa.



So what makes sense mathematically doesn't make sense morally, to me.

It just FEELS WRONG.



Most people have two working kidneys for example, and, lets say you are on dialysis 3x /week because you have zero working kidneys...even though, mathematically, you should be justified in taking someone else's kidney, so you each have one...w/o their consent...its wrong to take the kidney.


IF the one guy on the tracks or the healthy guy at the hospital yelled "Go for it"....sure, that's consent.

W/o that though, math ≠ morality.


It can also hark back to the cookie jar scenario...

Little Johnny sees the jar, climbs up, and steals one cookie, knowing he's not allowed to have any.


Little Billy is cleaning the kitchen, and accidentally knocks over the jar, ruining ALL the cookies and breaking the jar.


Who was the most bad boy?


Little kids up to a certain age, say Billy, because he messed up more cookies and broke the jar.

After a certain age, they say Johnny, because he was stealing a cookie, and Billy did the damage accidentally.


I think its like that for the math on the tracks, etc.


Its not just about how many guys get smooshed by the train.

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Old 10-27-2015, 08:59 PM #6189
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
I'm sorry I thought you knew I was yanking your chain. Please forgive me I can be a bit of a troll. Though I thought it was obvious. I meant no harm by it though.

Completely serious though. I see it as matter creates spacetime not the other way around. Matter existed but it was infinitely small. There was no "Space". Then when the Rapid Expansion
happened this matter created "Space" and with Gravity and Space you get "Time".


As far as the Cross questions. You are correlating the Crux aka the Southern Cross constellation with the Cross Jesus was Crucified on. The "Pagan" Crux is not the same and does not signify anything other than when to harvest.

Ow.

Sorry, my chain was sore from too much yanking lately.




Sometimes, its just too hard to tell if some posts are serious or not....the premises are so ludicrous I think its a joke, and then they get all upset because it WAS serious...

...so, I apologize for not being able to tell if your's was tongue in cheek or not.





As for spacetime from matter, or matter from spacetime...


We have not yet seen SPACE created by matter or energy. We HAVE seen matter/energy created from space...so, I did put it in terms of spacetime creating matter, as in the context, it was closest to explaining how "stuff" appeared.


IE: Most thinking people (Not the ones who can't do thought experiments...the others...) can understand that space is what we'd have if we had "nothing", its a given...it can't not exist.

The same for time, it can't not exist.


So, spacetime becomes the given. That there's anything IN spacetime is the surprise, logically...as it IS conceivable that we could simply have an infinite amount of empty space that would simply have to be infinite in size and to have always existed...but "stuff"....that's only known about due to being around to observe it.

So, the observations and experiments where the photons, positrons and electrons just appear...fill in the gaps.


As the stuff appears to be a property of space time, there might not BE a "first" or Second" thing...it may simply have always existed as spacetime...which includes the properties of spacetime.

IE: Space, time and stuff simply always existed.


The forms might change, as in there might be different suns, and different galaxies...but, the overall makeup should be the same general layout....as stuff and energy tend to combine and interact in regular ways.


The creation of our universe, what we lately refer to as the big bang, etc...may get tweaked as we continue to hone our conception of how it occurred and what it was like, etc....but the cosmos (THE Universe) pretty much has an infinite story line...with universes banging into existence all over the place....but too far for them to perceive each other...

...or maybe SOME can, just not ours.

Maybe, somewhere out there, two civilizations are watching their expanding universes overlap and start to interact with each other.


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Old 10-27-2015, 09:22 PM #6190
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'd like to comment on the Abortion issue.

My wife and I have been married for 11 years. After 9 years my wife got pregnant with our daughter. She is also pregnant with our second child now. During the first 9 years we didn't try not to have a child. We were not going to the doctor to try or counting fertile days or anything but we both did want to have a child.

During these 9 years I watched a friend of a friend (Someone who used to hang out with my wife's friend) get 3 abortions because she refused to take birth control and because she just didn't want kids. I can't look at her without feeling rage. Knowing there are persons who want nothing more than to have a child to care for and love... and these demons just want to throw away their basic human right just sickens me. I really do feel like she is a murderer and a thief to the world.

A close male family member and his girlfriend of 2 years were living together and quite serious. She got pregnant with twins, that apparently she didn't want. He wanted them, with or without her. She aborted them without telling him. Totally not right or fair. To date he cannot trust a woman with his feelings.

Imagine knowing the most important thing ever in your life is suddently ripped away and you are left with the realization that you will never have it. There is no feeling like it. I only partly can relate to his feelings.

Yes there is the issue of rape. If the rape is handled properly and the morning after pill is taken there "should" be no issues. I don't think that a woman/girl should have to carry an unwanted rape baby. HOWEVER, and please do not berate me over this, I will preface this with I can understand that a person may be traumatized and this may be difficult, but if you do not report the rape, if you do not resolve the unwanted pregnancy within the first 45 days you should be stuck. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. If there is a heartbeat, you're having a baby.


Space, Time, and Matter were all unified at the singularity. Space was infinitely small. When matter expanded so did space. Time was a result of the Space and the Mass within the space. Time is not a when it is a location.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:50 PM #6191
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Your entire "case" is based on hearsay, and the effort of digging up almost a year of posts to find two mild lapses in policy. You've got nothing, visiblegreen. I don't know why I bothered.
Do you deny ever talking bad about Greenlander/Lehap?
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:57 PM #6192
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Some argue the person they are arguing with, some, the content.


You and I would like to stay with the content, and, other than pointing out TO the person(s) the errors or issues with their content, or lack thereof, the objective is still to steer back to content and away from personal friction.

We are all SO much more than what we post in this thread...so, its easy for some to get tunnel vision, and judge people by their posts here...forgetting they are also out there in real life, and, those lives may give a totally different impression of that person if we knew about them.
so dam true!!!!! Nicely put Teej
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