Old 10-21-2015, 03:06 AM #6113
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

And, to avoid the above being too long...

Trendkilla, you say Adam and Eve were the only two humans.

You base that on the earlier creation myth its based upon? The Sumerian creation myth the hebrew bible copied, and then the new testament adopted?

Oh, right Objective morality in the bible...right....the human race depends upon incest to get started...so incest is objectively moral.

No wonder they love their bibles in West Virginia.

Gotcha.




There are only Adam, eve, and the kids, and they fight over LAND...they have the ENTIRE FREAKING PLANET, and, they fight over land...and Cain slew (MURDERED) Abel to get the LAND....although various translations over the millennia also have it fighting over who got the more beautiful woman, who gave god the best sacrifice, and a few other variations on why one brother kills the other.

And, because its SUCH a freakin large family, and they are so retarded that they don't know they are related, they have to put a mark on his forehead so STRANGERS will be able to tell if they should kill him or not.

As the retarded (Because of all the incest?) woman gave birth to STRANGERS!!!


And, the mark...lets see, the FIRST MURDERER, wow, god must be REALLY pissed at the first son of adam and eve..so, the mark is to tell people to kill HIM, as punishment for killing his brother, right?

Wait, WTF? The mark is to warn people NOT TO kill cain, or GOD WILL REVENGE THE DEATH 7 FOLD?!?!?

Wait....There's adam and eve...a mom and dad god is punishing for the snake trick he played on them...

They have a son, Cain.

They have another, Abel.

Cain kills Abel...so, let's see, 1+1 = 2 people total on earth...plus cain = 3, plus Abel = 4, minus able = 3.

OK, so, we needed a mark on his head...because of all the people who wanted to kill him, for.....what?

Killing his own brother, but god is protecting him...and the vengeance is 7 fold...so, god would have to kill all remaining humans (Both of them?)...3.5 times?

So, it would be either Adam, or Eve, killing their only remaining son, for killing their second born...and then god kills them a few times because he perhaps loved the world's first murderer so much, he was OK about it.

The story was edited over the millennia after scholars did the math, and realized things like they needed to make everyone able to live a lot longer, they needed to add some other kids for adam and eve, etc...or the whole thing was even too screwy to fool even a bronze age hunter gatherer.

The jews added some twins, then some other kids were thrown in, some moved out to the empty cities to live with their murderous uncle Cain, as mom and dad probably figured he outgrew that murder stage, etc...

Cain leaves home, and starts founding cities...which he lives in alone, because there's no other people yet....except the siblings and parents he LEFT behind.

Wow....hell of a story bro.



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Old 10-21-2015, 03:20 AM #6114
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
And we would agree with you -
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5 NASB

As far as evidence for God we have the -

1. Contingency Argument
2. Cosmological Argument
3. Teleological Argument
4. Moral Argument
5. Ontological Argument
6. The Resurrection of Jesus
7. The Immediate Experience of God



Try not to think of me as -


If I truly didn't care about the non-Christian LPF members here I wouldn't be in this thread.
Duke, Why quotie a book I don't recognize as anything other than a man written bronze age book. is it it that you can't get your head around the fact that a person doesn't recognize the authority of the bible.? Why else would you cite a bunch of, to me, meaningless garble from a source I feel is fiction at best, disgustingly immoral at worst? Because you think it still holds some weight in me. You really can't get your head around atheism can you? You think we are just mad at god but secretly believe in him, and respect the bible. I respect the bible like i respect cancer for giving doctors jobs.
Lets go back to my analogy.
Lets say you disagreed with the leading neuro-oncologist the best way to remove a tumor from a living mans brain, and treat him to give him the greatest chance of success and life. Right here, right now, not if you were a Doctor. From your chair sitting tonight, if you were to tell me that you disagreed with my father's surgeon and knew better than him regarding this matter, would that be anything other than arrogantly foolish?

But enter religion and an invisible man whispering in your ear and all of a sudden your opinions on subjects you have little understanding then matters in incredibly complex specialized fields such as particle physics? Do you see why I said what I said yet?

So if the shoe fits wear it. BTW, I was referring to Trendkilla. But if you think the same way as he and know more about physics then a leading cosmologist, then I am also now talking about you.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:21 AM #6115
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
All you are doing is still saying that until a thing is PROVEN, you can't believe it,

I may be willing to believe some things that haven't been proven.

We DEDUCE that infinity exists, LOGICALLY.

We DEDUCE that space is infinite LOGICALLY.

You seem to be incapable of imagining a universe that isn't infinite or a place without time, or a different place that existed before our universe existed, in case you didn't notice, science appears to tell us that it wasn't always here.

Some things can't be proven without logic.

Infinity is one of them.

We don't know that yet.

If you really knew as much about the nature of the universe as you claim to, I could almost believe you were sent here by God, or maybe Satan.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:27 AM #6116
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Here is something my brother wrote when he was teaching!

Could there be a fourth spatial dimension? Well, that's a tricky question because we currently can't perceive or measure anything beyond the dimensions of length, width and height. Just as three numbers are required to pinpoint a location in a three-dimensional world, a four-dimensional world would require four.

At this very moment, you're likely positioned at a particular longitude, latitude and altitude. Walk a little to your left, and you'll alter your longitude or latitude or both. Stand on a chair in the exact same spot, and you'll alter your altitude. Here's where it gets hard: Can you move from your current location without altering your longitude, latitude or altitude? You can't, because there's not a fourth spatial dimension for us to move through.

But the fact that we can't move through a fourth spatial dimension or perceive one doesn't necessarily rule out its existence. In 1919, mathematician Theodor Kaluza theorized that a fourth spatial dimension might link general relativity and electromagnetic theory [source: Groleau]. But where would it go? Theoretical physicist Oskar Klein later revised the theory, proposing that the fourth dimension was merely curled up, while the other three spatial dimensions are extended. In other words, the fourth dimension is there, only it's rolled up and unseen, a little like a fully retracted tape measure. Furthermore, it would mean that every point in our three-dimensional world would have an additional fourth spatial dimension rolled away inside it.

String theorists, however, need a slightly more complicated vision to empower their superstring theories about the cosmos. In fact, it's quite easy to assume they're showing off a bit in proposing 10 or 11 dimensions including time.

Wait, don't let that blow your mind just yet. One way of envisioning this is to imagine that each point of our 3-D world contains not a retracted tape measure, but a curled-up, six-dimensional geometric shape. One such example is a Calabi-Yau shape, which looks a bit like a cross between a mollusk, an M.C. Escher drawing and a "Star Trek" holiday ornament [source: Bryant].

Think of it this way: A concrete wall looks solid and firm from a distance. Move in closer, however, and you'll see the dimples and holes that mark its surface. Move in even closer, and you'd see that it's made up of molecules and atoms. Or consider a cable: From a distance it appears to be a single, thick strand. Get right next to it, and you'll find that it's woven from countless strands. There's always greater complexity than meets the eye, and this hidden complexity may well conceal all those tiny, rolled-up dimensions.

Yet, we can only remain certain of our three spatial dimensions and one of time. If other dimensions await us, they're beyond our limited perception -- for now.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:40 AM #6117
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
Yet, we can only remain certain of our three spatial dimensions and one of time. If other dimensions await us, they're beyond our limited perception -- for now.
Maybe our universe is only 4 dimensional but exists within a larger 11 dimensional universe, or maybe we are in an 11 dimensional universe but we ourselves are only 4 dimensional.

Alan
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:45 AM #6118
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post

String theorists, however, need a slightly more complicated vision to empower their superstring theories about the cosmos. In fact, it's quite easy to assume they're showing off a bit in proposing 10 or 11 dimensions including time.
.
They're not showing off by proposing extra dimensions. The maths only works with 11 dimensions. That's the only reason ST proposes it. But it is pretty cool, lol
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Old 10-21-2015, 12:31 PM #6119
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

As far as dimensions, if they exist, they exist for all things.

IE: You cannot have Flatland.

That's a childrens book, but, the physics doesn't work if you actually think about it.


As for Alan's rejection of logic vs proof, um, I don't really have a way for you to interpret what you do on a daily basis then....you are simply in a mental state that assumes something with no end can be measured and the end found, to confirm where it is when it has no end.




As I mentioned, without calculations that ASSUME infinity, many things you use on a daily basis would not exist, or work, etc. We don't need to measure it, thankfully, because by DEFINITION it can't be measured.

So, yeah, waiting for proof ain't gonna be a short wait, more like an infinite wait.




Back to dimensions -

Consider a square. It has length and width, but no height, but it can't actually EXIST except as a drawing or concept. You will never find a 2 dimensional square in nature so to speak, they don't exist.

Consider a cube. It adds depth. You CAN find these in nature.

If the cube has 7-8 or so OTHER dimensions we can't detect, fine, that means we do as well.

We can't "Travel to another Dimension" anymore than a square can travel to its cube, etc...you HAVE dimensions, you don't go visit them.


So things can have dimensions...but a dimension is a property of matter, or a description of a space.


As far as time - Again, no one can experimentally "prove" it even exists in of itself. We use LOGIC to initially agree how to MEASURE it, in terms of its passing relative to something we CAN see or detect, such as a vibrating cesium atom, a clock, etc.

Time as a dimension is debated, but, as its something you CAN exist "within", I think its a fair assessment as a dimension.

It is always the present, but the period between presents does seem variable, which is of course quite impossible at first glance.

The discovery of how it can be WARPED for example, and relativity, etc, was definitely not something the average Joe "always suspected" for example....it took a lot of sciencing the hell out of to discover.

It was LOGICALLY deduced from the available data....THEN, after science developed the MEANS to test it, it was tested, and, oddly, found to actually BE the case, time IS part of spacetime, and, CAN be warped, etc.


So, someone who wants to keep their mind slammed shut can just go around saying they need more proof, but, those who make money off it working, are making money...modern technology has proven it works, and its a part of everyday life.

We know time has no beginning or end, because, whatever was before that, or after that, is happening at a different TIME.

If you, again, need someone to MEASURE how long infinite time takes to happen, to prove it happens, again, you are in for an infinite wait...as you are unable to use logic to deduce it yourself, and think a scientist has to measure it for it to be true.

(ironically?)




I also want to clarify a previously clarified point that is continuously re-obscured:

When "scientists say the big bang was the beginning of time", they never SAID THAT. Hawking said it was LIKE the beginning of time, not that it WAS.

The CONTEXT was OUR universe, at least the stuff we see/can detect, originated at that point. The singularity theory, called the big bang even though it was never actually considered to BE a "Big Bang"...that was an amusing term said in derision of it, that happened to stick, and now that's what we call it. (Think "Obama Care")

THE universe is everything outside of OUR universe, plus our universe inside it.

Science articles, etc, for the sake of simplicity, often neglect to make this distinction.

Essentially, when anyone talks about "The age of the universe", etc...they mean the observable universe, also called "OUR Universe".

NO ONE says how old THE UNIVERSE is, as we KNOW its infinitely old...because there would be space even if there was nothing ELSE...and no time before time, as that would still be "a time", and so forth.


So, ALL things you read/hear about that discuss the origin of the universe, age of the universe, size of the universe, mass in the universe, and so forth, are talking about OUR/THE OBSERVABLE universe, and NOT the rest of what's out there we have no way of detecting yet....if ever.


Logically, one would figure that out, as how would scientists KNOW the size of space out beyond the ability to detect? If they say how big something is, its analogous to camera focus....they can focus on things out to a certain distance, and, after that, its just infinity.


We can't detect things that are so far away that their radio waves or light, etc, have not yet reached us.

When we "See" a star, its light might have left millions of years ago, and JUST gotten to us, and, that star may have exploded millions of years ago, but the light from it is still on the way to us, and we will continue to "See it" for millions of years for example...even though its long gone.

When they say its expanding, they are essentially doing what radar calculations do for commercial or military airlines, etc...looking for red shifting, as meaning the object is getting further away, and calculating the speed at which its doing that.

When things at the far reaches are going PROGRESSIVELY faster, so the closer stuff is slower than the further away stuff...they know the rate is accelerating.

When they calculate the speeds at which things are moving, and find that they need to account for the expansion of spacetime, and not just objects travelling through it, to be ABLE TO PREDICT where the objects will be next...they are further confirming the way spacetime works.




The vast distances of space, even in our our universe, are so incredibly large that light is just too damn slow...and, that's our primary limiting factor so far.


So, remember, science DOESN'T say there was no time, or space, it said it was LIKE there was no time before the singularity, as there was nothing to measure the passing of it that that know of.

They do NOT say they know what was going on, say, a year earlier, etc...as that evidence was, presumably, destroyed. Its possible that someone finds a way to recover that information, the way the cosmic echoes that theory predicted, were eventually found, etc.

Spacetime though has been experimentally shown to exist, and, is used commercially as a proven entity...such as by GPS systems, etc.

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Old 10-21-2015, 04:05 PM #6120
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
And we would agree with you -
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5 NASB

As far as evidence for God we have the -

1. Contingency Argument
2. Cosmological Argument
3. Teleological Argument
4. Moral Argument
5. Ontological Argument
6. The Resurrection of Jesus
7. The Immediate Experience of God






Try not to think of me as -


If I truly didn't care about the non-Christian LPF members here I wouldn't be in this thread.


You DO realize that all of the above are invalid arguments, right?


For example, simply plug in god and you come back to god not being able to "come from nothing", so, he can't exist either.

IE: If the universe has to be created because everything does, then, so does god.

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Old 10-21-2015, 04:56 PM #6121
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
1. Contingency Argument
2. Cosmological Argument
3. Teleological Argument
4. Moral Argument
5. Ontological Argument
6. The Resurrection of Jesus
7. The Immediate Experience of God
These all have thorough refutations. For anyone that's curious, run a search on Iron Chariots.

Besides, pretty much NOBODY has converted to Christianity for ANY of these reasons (save #7). If these arguments didn't even convince a theist, why should they convince an atheist?
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:10 PM #6122
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
As far as dimensions, if they exist, they exist for all things.

In our universe the same dimensions appear to exist for all things.

IE: You cannot have Flatland.

That's a childrens book, but, the physics doesn't work if you actually think about it.

You are just assuming that's true based on what you're capable of understanding and what you observe around you. In our universe the physics don't work, but in another universe the physics may not be the same.

As for Alan's rejection of logic vs proof, um, I don't really have a way for you to interpret what you do on a daily basis then....you are simply in a mental state that assumes something with no end can be measured and the end found, to confirm where it is when it has no end.

Now you're making up bullshit and puting words in my mouth, or are you just trying to insult me?

Any idiot can figure out that something infinite can't be measured.

You have been making extraordinary claims about the nature of the universe that physicists and astronomers don't claim to know. I listen to Professor Michio Kaku and the scientists he interviews and when these questions come up about the nature of the universe he says I don't know. I also listen to the astronomer Richard C. Hoagland and the scientists he interviews and he often makes extraordinary claims but doesn't claim to know as much about the universe as you claim to, again when the calls and questions come in the answer is often we don't know. Last night some caller asked about the discrepancy of 70 million years between the age of the earth and moon, when a planet is 4.3 Billion years old science can't determine the age with that kind of precision so 70 million years difference in the estimated age is nothing, so the earth and moon could be the same age, or maybe not quite. Scroll down for the age of the universe.


Consider a cube. It adds depth. You CAN find these in nature.

If the cube has 7-8 or so OTHER dimensions we can't detect, fine, that means we do as well.

It should mean that, but it could mean maybe and maybe not. Everything in our universe should have the same number of dimensions, I wouldn't rule out the possibility though. What if something came here from outside our universe, and it wasn't 4 dimensional, could it exist here? Or could we exist there?

So things can have dimensions...but a dimension is a property of matter, or a description of a space.

Yes it is both of those things.

Time as a dimension is debated, but, as its something you CAN exist "within", I think its a fair assessment as a dimension.

It is always the present, but the period between presents does seem variable, which is of course quite impossible at first glance.

The discovery of how it can be WARPED for example, and relativity, etc, was definitely not something the average Joe "always suspected" for example....it took a lot of sciencing the hell out of to discover.

It was LOGICALLY deduced from the available data....THEN, after science developed the MEANS to test it, it was tested, and, oddly, found to actually BE the case, time IS part of spacetime, and, CAN be warped, etc.

I think most of us know about relativity and the warping of space time by the presence of matter, and Einstein's time dilation theory that has been well proven.

We know time has no beginning or end, because, whatever was before that, or after that, is happening at a different TIME.

Again you are just making up your own science based on your very limited imagination. We don't know any such thing, and if time is a dimension, then it is not logical to automatically assume that it has no beginning or end.

If you, again, need someone to MEASURE how long infinite time takes to happen, to prove it happens, again, you are in for an infinite wait...as you are unable to use logic to deduce it yourself, and think a scientist has to measure it

I also want to clarify a previously clarified point that is continuously re-obscured:

When "scientists say the big bang was the beginning of time", they never SAID THAT. Hawking said it was LIKE the beginning of time, not that it WAS.

They don't know if it was or wasn't.

The CONTEXT was OUR universe, at least the stuff we see/can detect, originated at that point. The singularity theory, called the big bang even though it was never actually considered to BE a "Big Bang"...that was an amusing term said in derision of it, that happened to stick, and now that's what we call it. (Think "Obama Care")

THE universe is everything outside of OUR universe, plus our universe inside it.

Science articles, etc, for the sake of simplicity, often neglect to make this distinction.

And why do you think that is? It's because they don't know how large our universe is or what if anything else exists outside of it.

Essentially, when anyone talks about "The age of the universe", etc...they mean the observable universe, also called "OUR Universe".

NO ONE says how old THE UNIVERSE is, as we KNOW its infinitely old...because there would be space even if there was nothing ELSE...and no time before time, as that would still be "a time", and so forth.

Your making up more bullshit, we don't know the universe is infinitely old, astronomers and physicists are always trying to estimate the age of the universe and they have revised it before but they mostly agree it's not infinitely old. They mostly agree it is 13.77 or 13.82 billion years old.

WMAP- Age of the Universe

So, ALL things you read/hear about that discuss the origin of the universe, age of the universe, size of the universe, mass in the universe, and so forth, are talking about OUR/THE OBSERVABLE universe, and NOT the rest of what's out there we have no way of detecting yet....if ever

That's right, whatever is beyond or outside our universe we have no way of detecting.

When things at the far reaches are going PROGRESSIVELY faster, so the closer stuff is slower than the further away stuff...they know the rate is accelerating.

When they calculate the speeds at which things are moving, and find that they need to account for the expansion of spacetime, and not just objects travelling through it, to be ABLE TO PREDICT where the objects will be next...they are further confirming the way spacetime works.

Now you are contradicting what you have said before. You claim that space time was always here and is infinite. So tell me how can it be expanding?

So, remember, science DOESN'T say there was no time, or space, it said it was LIKE there was no time before the singularity, as there was nothing to measure the passing of it that that know of.

It doesn't say that there was or wasn't.

Spacetime though has been experimentally shown to exist, and, is used commercially as a proven entity...such as by GPS systems, etc.
I think we are all smart enough to know that space time exists and wether or not our GPS works. You don't need to keep bringing up the GPS as proof of the existence of space time, the people in this thread aren't children and you don't need to insult them with such ridiculous examples.

Alan
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Old 10-21-2015, 05:33 PM #6123
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I think we are all smart enough to know that space time exists and wether or not our GPS works. You don't need to keep bringing up the GPS as proof of the existence of space time, the people in this thread aren't children and you don't need to insult them with such ridiculous examples.

Alan
Then, why, pray tell, do you keep insisting on proof?

It implies at least, that you don't get it.

If you do get it, stop making posts indicating you need proof.


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Old 10-21-2015, 06:35 PM #6124
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Then, why, pray tell, do you keep insisting on proof?

It implies at least, that you don't get it.

If you do get it, stop making posts indicating you need proof.


You don't get it. You have been making incredible claims about the universe stating that they are a fact when the reality is that we don't know. You claim to know, and you are going against mainstream science, nothing wrong with that, but if you know so much about the universe that scientists don't then you should get a Nobel prize and go down in history as the greatest scientist who ever lived.

Your very limited imagination of how the universe can or can't exist could be true. The things I have suggested about the universe could also be true. All science begins with speculation, you then try to develop a way of testing your ideas if possible, at this time it's not yet possible. I am not claiming I am correct about anything, I am claiming that you can't know:

That the universe is infinitely old
That time has no beginning or end
That space time is infinite and yet somehow still expands!
That space time always existed even before the universe did
That all matter just pops into existance because of space time, if that one is true then I guess we could have another Big Bang right next to us at any time

I can imagine all of these being true, but I can also imagine that none of them are true. I can also imagine things outside of our universe or the existance of other universes not the same as ours, but there is no proof of any of this. Just thinking about these things doesn't make them true.

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Old 10-21-2015, 08:49 PM #6125
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Alan,

Nothing I said is incredible, or different from what science actually says.

You have simply confused several concepts.

Example: The observed universe, also called our universe, and, the universe, which contains ours.

Science does say the universe is infinitely old, but that ours is a few billion years old, starting the "clock" for ours at the singularity, or big bang as its referred to.

Science does say that the universe has infinite space, but that our universe extends a few billion light years, ie: is finite.

Your confusion is common, because articles about this never clarify that all conversation about how large or how old or the mass in the universe are ONLY talking about ours.

Again, ours is the observable part...the part we can measure.

We don't have measurements of things we cannot measure...so, any mention OF measurement, automatically means we can, and that the context is always our universe.

So, our universe is expanding. The universe as a whole, well, we don't have evidence to even check....its too far away....but we can deduce its not likely, as, where would it expand TO?



So, you were on track to question the combination of Infinite, And Expanding. That was logical.

All you needed to know was the info that it was discussing different things....and, now, it should make sense.

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Old 10-22-2015, 12:14 AM #6126
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Because you love your fellow man, and want to help him?

Because you can turn the other cheek?

Because two wrongs don't make a right?

Because you want to set an example of how a Christian should behave?

Because you truly want others to understand the importance of your message?

Because something constructive would be something to build upon?

Because you otherwise are just making critical comments about non-constructive things?

Because you don't want to say destructive things?

Because you want to prove that you are capable of having a debate without getting your feelings hurt?


OK, your turn.

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Old 10-22-2015, 01:19 AM #6127
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Besides, pretty much NOBODY has converted to Christianity for ANY of these reasons (save #7).
That's an awfully bold statement to make, how do you figure?


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Are you a returning banned member?
It's been USABro the whole time
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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That's an awfully bold statement to make, how do you figure?




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