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Old 10-20-2015, 02:52 PM #6097
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You guys keep saying it's occam's razor... Really?
So what's simpler:

1) The sugar in my coffee materialized out of nothing. Or wait "Spacetime" did it.
2) I put it in there?

In this scenario I am god (blasphemy). See what I did there?


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Old 10-20-2015, 03:01 PM #6098
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
You guys keep saying it's occam's razor... Really?
So what's simpler:

1) The sugar in my coffee materialized out of nothing. Or wait "Spacetime" did it.
2) I put it in there?

In this scenario I am god (blasphemy). See what I did there?


You essentially made a non sequitur.


You equated a long process with a short one, and substituted yourself, a natural force, for a supernatural one.


IE: You put the sugar in your coffee.

The sugar and the coffee existed because there is space and time, which resulted in (Eventually) stars and (Eventually) us and sugar and coffee.




Remember, that at least the Christian Creation Myth says that there was no time or space, and that from "nothing" god created everything else.

That is ALSO "something from nothing + Supernatural being who exists before time, and in a place with no space", and, with the power to DO all that?

Leaving out the supernatural being saves an entire complication. (Such as, WHEN did god exist BEFORE TIME? If god is everywhere, where was he before there WAS anywhere?)


If you can't get something from nothing, as an argument...you CAN'T then say "God ALWAYS EXISTED"...as, if everything HAS TO BE CREATED, who created god? And then who created them?

If you CAN be allowed to say god always existed and didn't need to be created, then you also have to consider that space and time didn't need to be created either...as it's about the same premise.


This makes more sense, because, again, we KNOW that nuclear power and gps WORK...and the theories that explain this are part of the explanation for the photons and positrons from spacetime, etc.

So, you don't need faith for guidance, you can look at your gps.

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Old 10-20-2015, 03:36 PM #6099
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
You essentially made a non sequitur.


You equated a long process with a short one, and substituted yourself, a natural force, for a supernatural one.


IE: You put the sugar in your coffee.

The sugar and the coffee existed because there is space and time, which resulted in (Eventually) stars and (Eventually) us and sugar and coffee.




Remember, that at least the Christian Creation Myth says that there was no time or space, and that from "nothing" god created everything else.

That is ALSO "something from nothing + Supernatural being who exists before time, and in a place with no space", and, with the power to DO all that?

Leaving out the supernatural being saves an entire complication. (Such as, WHEN did god exist BEFORE TIME? If god is everywhere, where was he before there WAS anywhere?)


If you can't get something from nothing, as an argument...you CAN'T then say "God ALWAYS EXISTED"...as, if everything HAS TO BE CREATED, who created god? And then who created them?

If you CAN be allowed to say god always existed and didn't need to be created, then you also have to consider that space and time didn't need to be created either...as it's about the same premise.


This makes more sense, because, again, we KNOW that nuclear power and gps WORK...and the theories that explain this are part of the explanation for the photons and positrons from spacetime, etc.

So, you don't need faith for guidance, you can look at your gps.


Sooooo spacetime created spacetime? Cause that makes sense.
Make no mistake I will continue to make irrational arguments. Let's continue shall we?

In "reality" we are a hologram being projected onto a medium we don't understand. This is why string theory works. Science has essentially proven there are multiple dimensions. What we perceive as the here and now isn't. When all of existence can be derived from a mathematical equation, how can any other possibility be considered. It's Math!
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Old 10-20-2015, 04:13 PM #6100
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
Sooooo spacetime created spacetime? Cause that makes sense.
Make no mistake I will continue to make irrational arguments. Let's continue shall we?

In "reality" we are a hologram being projected onto a medium we don't understand. This is why string theory works. Science has essentially proven there are multiple dimensions. What we perceive as the here and now isn't. When all of existence can be derived from a mathematical equation, how can any other possibility be considered. It's Math!

Lol

No, space and time combine to be spacetime.

No one had to create space.

No one had to create time.

Spacetime creates matter and energy, not itself.


When a theory equates dimensional projections to holograms, that is not the same as BEING a hologram.

It like saying we are all strings per string theory...its a way of describing something as like something else more familiar.



Are you next going to says relativity says we are all related?

: D

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Old 10-20-2015, 08:56 PM #6101
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm interested in who has a theory on "what made the big bang" happen??? without quoting an astrophysicist!
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:13 PM #6102
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Lol

No, space and time combine to be spacetime.

No one had to create space.

No one had to create time.

Spacetime creates matter and energy, not itself.


When a theory eqautes dimensional projections to holograms, that is not the same as BEING a hologram.

It like saying we are all strings per string theory...its a way of describing something as like something else more familiar.



Are you next going to says relativity says we are all related?

: D
Well of course we are all related. Adam and Eve were the only two humans.
So are you just saying Space and Time just Exist... just "because science"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
I'm interested in who has a theory on "what made the big bang" happen??? without quoting an astrophysicist!
The big bang didn't happen. There was only a rapid expansion.
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:17 PM #6103
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'll stick with what science says. Like the cosmic microwave background which tells a different story
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:03 PM #6104
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
1) The sugar in my coffee materialized out of nothing. Or wait "Spacetime" did it.
2) [god] put it in there?
"I don't know, therefore god" is an argument from ignorance.
It's also a contradiction. "I don't know, therefore I know"

Quote:
Originally Posted by APEX1 View Post
I'm interested in who has a theory on "what made the big bang" happen??? without quoting an astrophysicist!
Cause and effect imply the cause happened before the effect, yes?

To have any concept of "before", we need to have a concept of time.

We're not even sure if time existed before the big bang, so maybe your question is not the right question to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
I'm afraid you're wrong in that assumption along with countless other statements.
Do you have any counter-arguments or rebuttals? "You're wrong" isn't constructive, nor is it specific, nor is it convincing.
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:23 PM #6105
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Trendkilla254 View Post
Well of course we are all related. Adam and Eve were the only two humans.
So are you just saying Space and Time just Exist... just "because science"?


The big bang didn't happen. There was only a rapid expansion.

You seem to always be on a tangential trajectory....forgetting the context of about every content.

The context was the theory of relativity...and it having the word relative in it, so, as you thought the theory that compared holograms to dimensional projections said we were holograms...I asked if you thought the theory of relativity said we were all related.

To clarify, that is not the same as asking if you thing we are all related...that is a different topic. We agree that we are related.




"Because Science" is your version of implying that science is not valid, as a field?


If you read the posts about this, mere inches above these posts, you would, again, see the context that answered your question.


I will restate the premises for your convenience:

1) Space exists. We were pretty sure space exists before science was at least more formalized, but, I didn't know you doubted its existence before that time period.

Imagine there being NO space. What would be there?

If there was "nothing"...where would it BE?

So, we have conclusive evidence (yes, science) that space exists, and, we know the size of the local universe we are in.

We also know that it is a sub-set of the rest of space...of which we can't observe, but can logically deduce exists.

IE: If we have space, there can't be anything outside of it except more space...it CAN'T end, logically, as what would be on the other side....and so forth.

We can't get rid of space...its like collecting the holes from inside donuts, etc.

Space is simply all the room, as in ALL the room.

No one had to CREATE space, its what we have as a default.



2) Time also can't, logically, have a beginning, or an end. Hawking for example, discussed that for our universe at least, its LIKE time started when the "bang" occurred, as there was nothing he knew of the measure the passing of before that, etc. Again ...when a physicist, etc, says something is LIKE something, its not the same as saying it IS something, and so forth.

So, what was before the beginning of time? If it was "Before" there was time...and so forth...

So, no one had to create time either...it goes on and on whether there are watches or not.


3) Spacetime is a product of having space, and, time. So, we HAD space, and, time, so, we got spacetime.

Spacetime creates matter and energy, as, experimentally, that's what it seems to do. Photons for example, etc, just pop up where there was no photon there before, just spacetime.

-----------

So, "Because Science" means things can be tested to see if they are true, or at least work.


If we doubt relativity and spacetime for example...we could perform tests, and see if it works.

If we see it DOES work, then, sure, "Because Science".

If we see it DOESN'T work, we can ALSO say "Because Science", because science also shows when things DON'T work.


Some things are going on that science is not able to answer.

Some things used to fit that description, and, after science advanced, they didn't.

Until we had telescopes, the questions ANSWERED by telescopes were not able to be answered.

Until we had radio telescopes, the questions ANSWERED by radio telescopes were not answerable by science.

The same with microscopes, atomic force probes, and so forth...as each breakthrough allowed, more and more previously unanswerable questions became answerable.


Historically, of course, no matter what time period, when science could not answer a question, the religious would point out that some things are not knowable, and that obviously THAT must be the part explained by GOD!


Of course, over the centuries, the stuff left to be from GOD! got smaller and smaller.


Eventually that will drop to some point of diminishing return when people become advanced enough to no longer believe in the supernatural.




As for spacetime specifically, we KNOW Einstein was right about it, because it was proven experimentally, and, then, after the experiments worked, we used it for practical uses, such as blowing up Japanese cities and bathing millions in radioactive fallout, making nuclear power plants, and, being able to correct for the warping of spacetime that made GPS satellites not work unless it was accounted for, etc.


So, science showed it worked, business then used it. My GPS seems to work...the government's GPS seems to work. The nuclear power plants seem to work.


This is not a case of me making some unprovable claim, and you having to take my word for it. This is a case of you taking in the world around you with an open mind, and realizing the implications of what you see.

IE: Spacetime for example. Are all those GPS in cars a conspiracy theory where atheists run around pretending that the GPS gets you where you want to go, but it doesn't really work, and there really no satellites in geosynchronous orbit?


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Old 10-20-2015, 11:27 PM #6106
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Science has not proved that the universe and space time are infinite. If the Big Bang really happened then the universe should be of limited size and still expanding. We don't know if space and time were here before the Big Bang or came into existence along with the Big Bang. Thought experiments don't prove anything. The universe could exist inside of something larger that might be more than 4 dimensional, maybe there is even multiple universes that are way different than each other and not all are 4 dimensional. It is a difficult thing to imagine. There are no shortage of questions that we still can't answer.

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Old 10-21-2015, 01:00 AM #6107
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You know where it is you theists keep falling flat on your face over and over? Because you are all trying to make a case that you know is not possible. Im not saying God is not possible, I am saying your attempts are.
Every single one of you has failed miserably over and over. Trendkilla, your recent "arguments" have been a cavalcade of non sequitur's that aren't even a rational analogy even if they were relevant. Which none have been.

Here it is in a nut shell. You theists would be correct on many of these points you all try to make EXCEPT, you are trying to make the case as to why its rational for anyone else who is NOT YOU should come to the conclusion a god exists. That's were your going to fail 10 out of 10 times I promise you that. If you think anyone of you has been able to do what no other apologists has ever done in human history, then this is truly a fools paradise.

You will never make an intellectually honest case as to why anyone other than yourselves should think God is real. Teej has said it a thousand times. There simply is no evidence at ALL for God beyond anecdotal or personal faith based perceptions and reasons. Nobody has even formed a syllogism that has gotten past the first premise.
Not one of you have proved their case that it is rational for another person to believe in a god. Not one of you have even demonstrated the god you believe in is even possible to exist let alone does exist. You have attempted to falsify others case but even if one of you proved evolution and the Big Bang was wrong tomorrow, guess what? That wouldn't put you one mm closer to proving God.

Every single branch of science all agrees on.

-That there is no evidence or confirmable data to support a God or supernature
-There was a rapid expansion in which matter was created about 14 billion years ago
- The earth is close to 4.5 billion years old
-Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Large changes over time is a fact within the theory of evolution.


We do not yet have a complete understanding of every aspect of our reality and universe which is why we keep searching and learning. Neither do you, nobody does but we sure as hell do know some things as proof positive as it gets. See those listed above.

Most of you are making giant big ole what I am going to call, Arguments from Personal Ignorance. Because some of you have the arrogance to think that because certain really difficult concepts like M-theory, multiverse, Big Bang Model, Abiogenisis, ext doesn't make sense to your laymen understanding, then it can't possibly be a correct explanation of what we observe in reality. You are not even qualified to have an opinion on many of these matters nor am I. Would anyone care how you feel is best to preform Nuero-Surgery? Then why would you think your opinion matters on something even more complicated? The difference is, I don't have any reason to doubt the entire scientific body of the planet thinking they are completely bat shit crazy wrong. YOU DO have a reason to be willfully ignorant, because science as a whole unanimously agrees upon the understanding, models, and theory's that contradict the necessity for a God.


Its pretty arrogant and foolish to think you somehow know more than say, Dr. Lawrence Krauss, regarding "something coming from nothing". Maybe actually read his published work, and for the everyday folks he made it into an easy to understand book. You guys don't even know the differences between what a physicist means by the word nothing, vs what philosopher means by nothing. You are all using the term philosophically. Even in physical nothing there are still Quantum fluctuations. So as far as everything we know about reality, philosophical nothing does not exist. Not only does Dr Krauss's work show that something COULD come from nothing, but that its highly likely and not only that its inevitable.
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:34 AM #6108
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Do you have any counter-arguments or rebuttals? "You're wrong" isn't constructive, nor is it specific, nor is it convincing.
Nothing you say is constructive so why should I?
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:20 AM #6109
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
Here it is in a nut shell. You theists would be correct on many of these points you all try to make EXCEPT, you are trying to make the case as to why its rational for anyone else who is NOT YOU should come to the conclusion a god exists. That's were your going to fail 10 out of 10 times I promise you that.
And we would agree with you -
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5 NASB

As far as evidence for God we have the -

1. Contingency Argument
2. Cosmological Argument
3. Teleological Argument
4. Moral Argument
5. Ontological Argument
6. The Resurrection of Jesus
7. The Immediate Experience of God



Try not to think of me as -
Quote:
arrogant and foolish
If I truly didn't care about the non-Christian LPF members here I wouldn't be in this thread.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:36 AM #6110
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm really not trying to upset anyone with this question, why is it that religious folks say we get our morals from god??? Your telling me that we wouldn't treat others with respect without a God??? Or we wouldn't feel bad about steeling or hurting others...etc without a god? It has nothing to do with human evolution???

“Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain God's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the great surveillance camera in the sky, or the still small wiretap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base though.” -Richard Dawkins



We will never get the theist, at least not yet, to admit that morality is a process of genetics and deterministic chemicals operating within the brain and making our choices for us; and while the atheist may be willing to accept morality as a process of evolution and determinism there is still something unsettling to a great many atheists about the notion of free will bring illusory.
Theists also say that science has nothing to offer to the humanities such as music, painting and other arts. I tend to agree with this and would also venture to throw morality into this pile as well. It is entirely possible that science may one day discover an absolute morality and describe it to us but this would be as difficult as finding the singular equation that can illustrate the workings of the entire universe.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:50 AM #6111
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Science has not proved that the universe and space time are infinite. If the Big Bang really happened then the universe should be of limited size and still expanding. We don't know if space and time were here before the Big Bang or came into existence along with the Big Bang. Thought experiments don't prove anything. The universe could exist inside of something larger that might be more than 4 dimensional, maybe there is even multiple universes that are way different than each other and not all are 4 dimensional. It is a difficult thing to imagine. There are no shortage of questions that we still can't answer.

Alan
All you are doing is still saying that until a thing is PROVEN, you can't believe it, unless its something you want to believe, then no proof at all is needed.



It doesn't matter how many dimensions there are.

If they exist, we have them, that's how dimensions WORK.

You can't MEASURE an infinite distance.

Think about it. We can only MEASURE as far as we can detect...and our limits of detection, thus far, are limited to things that had time to reach us...at the speed of light.


There are fields of math, such as Calculus, where infinity is used.

Calculus WORKS, even though no one has PROVEN that infinity EXISTS.

We DEDUCE that infinity exists, LOGICALLY.

We DEDUCE that space is infinite LOGICALLY.


If you demand that until someone gets an infinitely long tape measure and lays it out in all directions and MEASURES infinity, that you don't believe it....well, I guess, for you, its not going to exist.



Some things can't be proven without logic.

Infinity is one of them.

Think about it.

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Old 10-21-2015, 02:57 AM #6112
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Nothing you say is constructive so why should I?
Because you love your fellow man, and want to help him?

Because you can turn the other cheek?

Because two wrongs don't make a right?

Because you want to set an example of how a Christian should behave?

Because you truly want others to understand the importance of your message?

Because something constructive would be something to build upon?

Because you otherwise are just making critical comments about non-constructive things?

Because you don't want to say destructive things?

Because you want to prove that you are capable of having a debate without getting your feelings hurt?


OK, your turn.


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