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Old 08-02-2009, 04:35 PM #593
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Gaias rules according to the occult

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion - faith - tradition - and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth - beauty - love - seeking harmony with the infinite.
10.Be not a cancer on the earth - Leave room for nature - Leave room for nature.





kill 9/10's of the planet w00t


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Old 08-02-2009, 04:43 PM #594
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Gaias rules according to the occult

kill 9/10's of the planet w00t
You have to suffer for your art

Peace,
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:52 PM #595
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You have to suffer for your art

Peace,
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You suffer for your soup, people have to understand that!





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Old 08-03-2009, 12:25 PM #596
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yea the Mormons sorry to say added another book...Tsssst.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:51 PM #597
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Yea the Mormons sorry to say added another book...Tsssst.
EVERY religion has "added" at least one more book.

Peace,
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Old 08-03-2009, 02:15 PM #598
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Y'all are so busy trying to fight with someone that you are not reading what I wrote and are trying to put words into my mouth. (...) You should notice that I refused to volunteer for extinction nor did I request that you should alter your life in any way to change that reality.
Sorry if it seems like that, but I never tried to put things into your mouth... All I said was those sentences "sound like" some other thought-currents. As it is, I understand you don't want people to change anything, and were just being realistic, yet one can disagree in principle as well even though no actions are debated...

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EVERY species that has dominated this planet (we are most certainly NOT the first to do so) has either gone extinct or evolved to a less dominate form.(...) I believe that the loss of the dinosaurs as well as the cephalapods before them, was tragic as well.
Of course there were extinctions before... however, the dinosaurs didn't die because of what they did to the environment, the currently accepted causes are either massive climate change (which they were not resposible for, by the way) or most likely an asteroid impact. Both of those are external causes of the kind that would affect any species, except a technologically-advanced one, which we happen to be. In other words, if not for that big ol'rock, the dinosaurs would most likely be driving Cadillacs these days -- something I don't find either worse or better than the current situation, just different.

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What makes us think that we will be any different? Because we are self aware?!? Because we have "science"?
YES! Exactly that, out self-awareness is the most important thing that happened in this part of the Universe during the last four billion years, more important than anything before or after -- except the existence of other self-aware, rational species, if we ever find proof of that. "Science" in itself is not that important, what matters is it's source -- Reason. We alone so far as this planet has existed have the ability to ask questions and find answers, as wrong or dumb as they may be. And _that_ is what gives value to everything, even the planet itself. You say

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We are a pox on this planet. It would be better off without us.
But I would counter that the planet without us is nothing but a lump of rock, devoid of any value whatsoever. If there was no mind to contemplate it, the mere fact of the planet's existence would be no more "better" or "worse" than if the whole solar-system remained in the state of a gas cloud. You need a moral system in order to assign value to states of being, therefore with no mind you have no morals so a word like "better" loses all meaning.

That said, don't get the idea that I somehow consider humans the pinacle of evolution or some sort of wonderful creatures, because we most definitely are not! We're a bunch of smelly apes, and I'll be the first to recognize that... But the mere fact that we have minds gives us a chance of evolving past that state, and that is enough to give the old'Gaia girl a warm fuzzy feeling that after all those eons she might finally get a child to be proud of -- even if it's uneducated, spoiled and doesn't know how to clean up after it, the kid's got potential.

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We have altered the environment faster than any previous species has done. To co-opt a line from "The BladeRunner"
Those that burn brightly; burn out quickly -- and (we) have burned oh so very brightly.
There certainly are a miriad ways for us to dissappear in a the blink of an eye, from viruses to nuclear war and from a meteor to some gamma-ray burst from a nearby star. But I'd say that the more a species impacts it's environment, the more it stands a chance of survival, not the other way around! A species dependent on the environment will always die first when it changes radically (say because of an ice-age). However, having the ability to destroy a tree and burn it for warmth would be a lot more helpful...

And in the end, who's to say that we will not evolve into something else altogether anyway? BladeRunner notwithstanding, maybe our legacy will be a race of mechanical creatures capable of conquering the whole galaxy and beyond ;-)
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Old 08-03-2009, 02:35 PM #599
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This appears to be a rather androcentric view of reality. The planet only has value because "humans" are here to contemplate it's value? There are millions of other species utilizing this planet. Some of them are self-aware. Millions came before us and millions will come after us (until the sun expands into its red giant phase).

As for the sentience of other species, we simply cannot "know" what is going through their minds. Just because we are not capable of communicating with them does not mean that they are not communicating and/or contemplating their existence. We do know that many of them do communicate with each other and some of them communicate with us. Even some plants send messages to each other to warn of attack.

Blue algae poisoned the carbon dioxide atmosphere, in which it thrived, with its waste product (oxygen). I will agree that was not sentient action, but it was self action none the less. We humans, and our science, are simply filling up the planet with our waste products faster than any other species before us has done.

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Old 08-07-2009, 01:00 PM #600
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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This appears to be a rather androcentric view of reality. The planet only has value because "humans" are here to contemplate it's value?
I'd rather use another word, perhaps "sapient-centric", since it would include any and all species capable of reason at the same level as humans or above. Other than that, yes, I do believe there is no value outside a sentient, sapient mind. Without a mind to base it on, how can one even define "value"? Would a Universe devoid of any form of rational being be valueable? To whom? Evidently we are reaching a problematic philosophical argument here, and the dichotomy seems to be whether existence has a priori value, or value in itself or not, to which I would answer "no". In my oppinion, a vast, complex Universe filled with nothing but un-evolving bacteria would be a terrible waste, and a tragedy if that was all that ever did and ever would have existed.

However, that doesn't mean we should be callous and careless in what we do to the world and it's inhabitants. As I said, I hope we will arrive at a point of balance, learning to live in harmony with the rest of the world. I also happen to be an animal-rights supporter, and I applaud the recent decisions like the one in Spain giving "person" status to great apes... But that doesn't mean we are all equal, or that animals, trees and bacteria are equally important to us, or even among themselves!

There is an implied and observable hierarchy in the biosphere, and we happen to be at it's top. Would you sincerely have second thoughts before giving a child antibiotics, thinking about the harm you're doing to bacteria invading his body? Or would you consider it a moral imperative to stop slavery among ant species? Of course it is important to try and minimize the harm we do in our way, and stop it when it's useless and wasteful (like many forms of animal testing); but in the overall scheme of things, humans (or any other sapient species) always come first!

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There are millions of other species utilizing this planet. Some of them are self-aware. Millions came before us and millions will come after us (until the sun expands into its red giant phase).
As for the sentience of other species, we simply cannot "know" what is going through their minds. Just because we are not capable of communicating with them does not mean that they are not communicating and/or contemplating their existence.
It is true that many animals are self-aware, and some even have basic reasoning skills. However, after all the eons that have passed, none have ever approached the level of humanity. Our closest relatives, great apes like the bonobos and chimpanzees, which share 98% of our DNA, have a mental development equivalent to a 3-year old human! That 2% is enough to make the difference between basic emotions and reasoning skills relating to nourishment, violence and *** and our own achievements like the Sistine Chapel or sending life to the Moon... It's also interesting to note that when a centennial forest is to be cut down, it is humans who tie themselves to trees, not dogs, deer or even apes. While our moral values stand in the way, the planet couldn't care less.

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Blue algae poisoned the carbon dioxide atmosphere, in which it thrived, with its waste product (oxygen). I will agree that was not sentient action, but it was self action none the less. We humans, and our science, are simply filling up the planet with our waste products faster than any other species before us has done.
Well, seen from your persepctive, I take it it was a "bad" thing that happened? The fact that the entire ecosystem was able to flourish in an oxygen-rich athmosphere like it never could in the previous conditions left the planet worse off? Because that's what you're saying... Sure, it may have been less-than-ideal for the algae, but it opened up the door for the millions of species that followed.

Applying that to the human race, there are a lot of creatures that thrive among us and because of our waste. Excluding the obvious cats and dogs that number in the hundreds of millions, what about rats, cockroaches and various types of birds that have become ubiquitous in all our cities? Certainly the advent of humans was a good thing for them; and who is to say that the world is worse off covered in blue algae rather than roaches? Just because we value whales more than crows, you cannot just think of one and ignore the other when judging human activity as "damaging"... What is "waste" for one creature is easily "food" for another -- granted, that results in overall changes in the balance of life, changes that we would regard as losses of diversity or destructions of previous beauty. Yet in the history of the planet, 95% of all species ever to appear are now extinct; as I said, "it" couldn't care less.

For what it's worth, our existence is the best thing that ever happened to this little rock, and we actually have a much better chance of preserving it all and actually enriching it even further (by spreading terrestrial life to other planets for example) than destroying it. I recently found this book an interesting read: The Ultimate Resource. One chapter, for example, presents humans as creators rather than destroyers, and is very close to my way of seeing things; the book as a whole supports the (somewhat controversial in the public eye) view that resources and "the environment" are not scarce but plentiful, and they become more so the more our population grows and our knowledge improves. Food for thought, maybe...

Finally, I do keep in mind the topic of this thread, and I know this talk has drifted somewhat, but I must say there is a striking resemblance between some forms of environmentalism and religious belief -- especially the ones that proclaim the Earth as some sort of holy ground, that is desecrated by the horrible deeds of us humans and that in the end will punish us by extinction or horrible diseases for our unrepentance. The similarities are obvious, and most of the time rooted in fear and prejudice rather than reason and facts, so I feel inclined to respond, sometimes passionately -- hopefully you won't take it personally

Best regards,
Mihnea

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Old 08-07-2009, 02:55 PM #601
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I guess he meant "anthropocentric" anyway
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:55 PM #602
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

mgc8 -- You continue to view reality through the lens that humans are the center of the biosphere (maybe even the universe). Even your measure of our "place" in it exposes that bias. What criteria do you use to decide on "placement" in your "observable" hierarchy? Your inability (or unwillingness) to view the situation from a different perspective will limit this discussion.

Saying that we are "right" because we are being more "successful" is too restrictive to further learning. If you use a different criteria then we are far from the "top." How about how many of us there are. Different species have found different ways to sustain a population far more numerous than we have. Many species have found a way to survive far longer than we have (although this is a still to be determined time frame). Some species have found a way to survive the mass extinction events that have repeatedly occurred on this planet. That other species have flourished in our waste and detritus is testament to THEIR success, NOT our success.

Even the emotion you assign to certain words shows the bias. Of course it was "terrible" when the blue-green algae died off. An entire ecosystem was destroyed. Literally TRILLIONS of lives were lost! The same could be said of every other mass extinction event. They were all both tragic and horrendous. Because they didn't affect US does not reduce the carnage left in their wake.

The "cockroaches" and "rats" of this world flourished long before we arrived on the scene. I imagine that they will continue to thrive after we are gone and the planet will return to its more "normal" state of existence. The planet has been here for FOUR BILLION years. We have been here a scant ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND years. To the planet, 100K years is a small "blip" on the screen.

Even that is an overestimation of our "success." We have only been separate from the "natural" ecosystem for a short TEN thousand years. That is when we invented the plow. Before that, we wandered in the wilderness, in small bands just like the other hominids.

Our "powerful" societies and cultures are one event away from collapsing. If just our electricity supply system fails, for any reason, those societies and cultures will disintegrate into hunter/gatherer bands once again wandering in the wilderness.

I don't really care either way. I wouldn't want to be alive during the collapse. It will, once again, be "terrible." However, the flourishing and extinction of species IS the natural order of things on this planet. To believe that our "science" or "sentience" will overpower the natural cycles of a system that has worked for 4,000,000,000 years is ludicrous.

For the record, ANY idea or concept can become "religious." All it takes is people accepting the basis of that idea or concept as "big 'T' truth" and embracing the original "leap of faith" as one of those Truths. Science itself is a form of religion for most adherents.

@ Dr-Ebert -- You are, of course, correct (although the view expressed is also a much more "masculine" view of reality. )

Peace,
dave

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Old 08-07-2009, 06:43 PM #603
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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mgc8 -- You continue to view reality through the lens that humans are the center of the biosphere (maybe even the universe). Even your measure of our "place" in it exposes that bias.
Well, if you replace "humans" by "sentient, rational beings" then you could say I view them as "above" other life-forms, not necessarily at the center (that I would envisage as a place for more basic creatures, like bacteria for example). If that makes me biased, so be it, albeit you must admit that a) you are biased as well and b) we all are, to various degrees.

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What criteria do you use to decide on "placement" in your "observable" hierarchy?
Let's see:
1. Ability to experience the environment -- basically a central nervous system (or equivalent) would sepparate creatures at a very basic level
2. Ability to affect the environment -- here there is no question that we are far above all others
3. Ability to reason about their own existence and the environment -- this may be contentious, because as you say "we don't know what other animals think" -- however, I say that if they would reason, then there would be an observable outer manifestation of that; lacking any such proof, we can conclude that they don't.

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Saying that we are "right" because we are being more "successful" is too restrictive to further learning. If you use a different criteria then we are far from the "top."
Sorry, but I never said either of that. Surely we are not "right", we've done and continue to do a lot of "wrong" things. And we certainly are not the most "successful" from a purely biological p.o.v., viruses and bacteria would occupy that spot by far.

What I was saying is that we are more important and valuable than either bacteria, frogs or gorillas. That if there has to be a choice between the development of our race and any other, the choice is clear. That is all. If tomorrow someone discovers a race of sentient ants and it becomes evident they are at the same reasoning level with us, I'll be happy to include them in the first paragraph -- but that wouldn't change the rest of it one bit.

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Some species have found a way to survive the mass extinction events that have repeatedly occurred on this planet. That other species have flourished in our waste and detritus is testament to THEIR success, NOT our success.
I never said that it was, albeit it is obvious that they only survived because of pure luck, as their ecological niche happened to be unaffected; there could easily be cosmological events that would destroy all life on the planet, and the planet itself -- and none of those species, except us, could do anything about it. But that was not the point, the point is that while you said the world was "worse" because of us, one can easily see it as being "better" if you are a cockroach or a rat. Undoubtedly, their life has become easier because of our development, so from their point of view we are creating a paradise. It is all a matter of taking a different perspective, and the only way to choose among perspectives is to assign them value, they don't have one in themselves.

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Our "powerful" societies and cultures are one event away from collapsing. If just our electricity supply system fails, for any reason, those societies and cultures will disintegrate into hunter/gatherer bands once again wandering in the wilderness.
Come on, this is simply unsubstatiated speculation! I could easily respond in like, by saying that we could just turn to 19th century technology like steam engines, horses and written letters, but I won't. Oh wait, I just did! Damn, see speculation is tricky like that :-P

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the flourishing and extinction of species IS the natural order of things on this planet.
Okay, so if you admit that, then what difference does it make if we are the ones causing species to become extinct? If it happens anyway, then we are just contributing to a natural process, right? So why would the planet be "worse off" because of us?

Let's take this from the opposite end for a twist... Imagine the Earth 4 billion years ago, before any hint of life existed. A beautiful, chaotic place with all those nice rocks melting away peacefully. Then come these obnoxious bacteria, which start a process of change which is still continuing to this very day, eating away at that peaceful rock and turning it into yucky slime and filling the waters with their dejections! Surely, the planet is much worse off because of all that, no? If you disagree, you've just admitted to being "life-centric" and having a "for-life" bias (please ignore the political connotations of that) -- I'll admit beforehand that I do!

What I want to stress here is that one cannot place the equal sign between the extinction of blue algae and the extinction of the human race! Both may be tragic, but on very different levels! Otherwise, you can go all the way to the begining and say that things were better off before any universe existed, and will become better after it will have dissappeared... To quote the great Douglas Adams:
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."

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To believe that our "science" or "sentience" will overpower the natural cycles of a system that has worked for 4,000,000,000 years is ludicrous.
But that is precisely what we've been doing for the past few thousand years! Ever since the first hominid picked up a flaming piece of wood and lit up his fire to fight "cold", we've been fighting (and overpowering) natural processes with great success... We eradicated hunger in the developed world, we killed smallpox and we extended the life-expectancy from 20 years to 70; we overpowered gravity and have split the bonds of the atom. Are we "done"? Of course not! We are not perfect and no, we have not won all the fights yet. We certainly have a way of taking two steps forward and one back, however there is no reason we shouldn't keep the fight going! And like a new-born that in the first few months will poop all over the place, we sometimes make a mess of things. But we can also learn from our mistakes and evolve beyond pooping and crying into a mature race -- which I will agree we are not yet.

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For the record, ANY idea or concept can become "religious." All it takes is people accepting the basis of that idea or concept as "big 'T' truth" and embracing the original "leap of faith" as one of those Truths. Science itself is a form of religion for most adherents.
I'm inclined to agree with that, if you'd change "most adherents" to "some adherents" in the last sentence. Sure, the general public is unable to recognize fact from fantasy and will gladly cling to any exciting story no matter where it comes from; there are of course scientists that fall victim to such a narrow way of thinking as well; but scientific thought differs from religious thought in a fundamental way, in that it is always open to reinterpretation and radical change. A lot of "fundamental" priciples in science were revised from the grounds up, things like relativity, germ theory or plate tectonics being just evident examples. Yes, it was difficult at first and sometimes it involved decades of arguing, but fact and reason did prevail, something that can not be said of any religion since the dawn of time!

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@ Dr-Ebert -- You are, of course, correct (although the view expressed is also a much more "masculine" view of reality. )
Now that I resent a little... These are issues I've actually discussed with some of my female friends, and although they are inclined to feel more connected with the "environment" and suffer for little fury animals, women are also very fast to put humans first! Just try and tell a mother that she is doing genocide by giving her child antibiotics or that she is disturbing the balance of life in the attic by cleaning it thoroughly, and see the reaction! I actually debated from the opposite side once when told that she wouldn't hesitate to kill a stray dog on the spot if it threatened her baby, something I found a little drastic... There may be differences in perception and in relating to issues, but I wouldn't call this position andro-centric at all -- unless there is something I'm missing, in which case please draw my attention that way.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:46 PM #604
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We are digressing into a definitional debate. I detest topicality arguments. You have begun to "line-by-line" me. It is one of the reasons that NDT and CEDA have lost validity and Parliamentary debate is growing. I am going to cease.

The only thing I will comment on is the last request because it is away from the current debate. I will not debate these with you. They are merely placed here to explain my "masculine" comment.

Masculine and feminine are not the same as male and female. Male and female are ***ual, physical characteristics. Masculine and feminine are psychological measurements. There are masculine females and feminine males and every possible combination thereof. Male vs. female are either/or propositions (yes there are exceptions). Masculinity vs. femininity occur on a continuum.

Your position is one that represents a more masculine cosmology. Mine is a more feminine viewpoint. I would imagine you are much more comfortable communicating in this style with other masculine communicators. That doesn't mean that you are gay or that they are not very ***y hetero***ual women. It means that humans are drawn to talk to people more like themselves. A feminine communicator would not enjoy this sort of "discussion."

May the road rise up to meet you and the wind be always at your back

Peace,
dave

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Old 08-08-2009, 12:31 AM #605
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

holy tl:dr
j/k you both make good points.

dave.. how do you know so much about kolob?
do you know the grips.. & if so, whats your secret codename into heaven.

its ok
you can tell it to gordon b
im right here


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Old 08-08-2009, 02:04 AM #606
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoRdOn_B View Post
holy tl:dr
j/k you both make good points.
dave.. how do you know so much about kolob?
do you know the grips.. & if so, whats your secret codename into heaven.
its ok
you can tell it to gordon b
im right here
I read voraciously! As a young man I studied religions and psychology. I study communication in the classroom for work. I studied forensics for tuition and travel. I study social influence techniques and behavior alteration messages for fun

As you can probably guess, social influence techniques and behavior alteration messages are VERY prevalent in religions.

Besides, who could resist studying an area that contains BAT's and BAM's

I'm not going to heaven. I wouldn't know anyone there.



Peace,
dave
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:49 AM #607
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

my friend got me a cool new shirt today..
she told me she thought of me instantly
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:09 AM #608
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I love it!



Peace,
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