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Old 10-16-2015, 07:15 AM #6049
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
No, they haven't.

While there is certainly no lack of bad news from the media, the reality of the world is quite different.

Specifically, there is less disease, less famine, and greater security for the vast majority of people in the world than there has EVER been at any point in recorded history.

There is also an undeniable, though unpleasant truth about the source of pretty much all these problems...

Overpopulation. And let's face it, religion, and lack of education are huge factors in that.
Morality is the key word here IE. Morality isn't something definable by anyone but God himself. This earth is in extremely bad shape as well. Whatever you may think of as small and not all that bad is not acceptable by any means. Not by HIM.


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Old 10-16-2015, 02:25 PM #6050
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Such a being would have to be more complex than all of existence.
How was this conclusion come too?
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Old 10-16-2015, 03:22 PM #6051
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
How was this conclusion come too?
I suppose that if it's complicated to have an infinite amount of space, and time, and photons, electrons and positrons pop up as a simple function of having spacetime...

...having a supernatural being that existed BEFORE time (when?), and without space to exist in (where?), would be even more complicated.

As, if he existed before time, what WAS before time?

If he existed with no space, where was he?

He would have nothing to interact with or upon...and, would have spent an infinite amount of time doing absolutely nothing.


So, ANYTHING "existing BEFORE TIME", is a very complicated concept...as time is required as a function of existance.

IE: TO exist, there would be a point in time at which you existed. If there was no time, there would be no existence.


If you want to insist that that's the case, you also have to admit that that's more complicated.

IE: If there was no point in time that you existed, then, you never existed.





Cyp - I see your point. Perhaps I was splitting a few hairs. If you count the "can't" as including all of the reasons, then not existing is included.

To me though, when you say something can't do something, it implies at least that the something referred to exists, at least in that context.

So, why couldn't superman fly 10 minutes into an episode? You COULD say its because he doesn't exist, or, that he was exposed to kryptonite, etc.

Its contextual.


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Old 10-16-2015, 03:43 PM #6052
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have no issues with the idea that space is infinite, nor to I have any issues with the idea that space is not infinite. My only comment to you was that your thought experiment does not prove space is infinite.
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Old 10-16-2015, 05:14 PM #6053
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I have no issues with the idea that space is infinite, nor to I have any issues with the idea that space is not infinite. My only comment to you was that your thought experiment does not prove space is infinite.
OK, so, if you're ok with space being finite, and, you did the thought experiment, describe the box so large there was no space outside of it.

If you did the experiment (the only way for you to know if it was compelling or not), you would be able to describe that box.




I'll give you an easier version...imagine a box small enough so that there WAS space outside of it.

Describe THAT box if you are able to do that thought experiment.

If you can describe the two boxes, then your opinion that you're OK with both versions would stand, as, you could.

If you can only describe ONE of the boxes, then your opinion would not stand, as, actually, you can only envision ONE scenario.

To be fair, most people can only envision the smaller box's nature, and, can give quite compelling examples to support their reasons for believing the smaller box can exist.

Its the larger box that no one, so far, has given a compelling justification for.

So, we're waiting...tell us about the box so large that there's no space outside of it...or, if too hard, about the smaller box.




And I'm NOT asking you to "PROVE" space is infinite or not, this is about boxes. What it DOES do, is give a glimpse into understanding what infinite really means, which is truly mind boggling.

THAT insight is necessary to go from knowing what the WORD means, to getting the concept adequately enough to consider other applications of infinite nature.


I know you know what the word infinite means, we all do, but until you can describe the larger box, you cannot understand the concept well enough yet to even consider the universe.

So, if you can describe the smaller box, but not the larger box, then, you do get it.

What you can't do, is to continue to pretend you did the experiment, and can describe both boxes...and see either as as likely.

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Old 10-16-2015, 06:04 PM #6054
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
The message whatever it may be is usually delivered to one person who is then responsible for telling everyone else.
That's an undeniably poor method of communication on God's part.

What's worse, he knew it would fail HORRIBLY before he even spoke.

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How was this conclusion come too?
Occam's razor is only in your favor if your god himself has a remarkably simple explanation... as far as his methodology, the creation of himself, his morality, the inner workings of his supernatural powers, and others.

No one has provided answers to these things. In fact, most believe he is above our understanding - that we couldn't possibly hope to understand everything about him. Even if someone had provided answers, they wouldn't be verifiable, because your god is the hide-and-seek champion of the universe.
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:01 PM #6055
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

IF god was "simple", we'd all agree on his wishes, origin, etc. The entire world has religions with extremely varied versions though, and, the conclusion, is therefore not in favor of simplicity, but extreme complication.

So, the existence of "God" would require everyone to agree on WHICH god they mean...as everyone has their OWN version of who or what "god" is.

To some, he is the old testament jealous god who makes mistakes, says he's sorry, "I won't do it again, here's a rainbow", etc.

To some, he's the new testament god, perfect in every way...with no flaws, and incapable of making a mistake/doing something he regretted.

To some, he's the new god who can't make a mistake AND the old one who did...with sub-sets of how to worship him and maybe his kid, the kid's mom, etc.

Some feel he has earthly representatives who tell the people what god wants them to do, with some saying that is in the Vatican, and others saying its from a spaceship, a particular geographical location/feature, such as a special mountain, and so forth.

Some feel he is neither ancient god, and is just a "presence", a spiritual spark that is in all of us, or he can be concentrated via crystals or by contorting yourself into hard to hold positions while resonating with the cosmic vibrations, etc.


In short, we don't agree that any one version of "god" exists...while at the same time demanding that everyone who disagrees change their mind or be punished for all eternity...or have poor feng shui or bad karma or a sick cow, or whatever.

ALL religions essentially claim that only (ONLY) their way is correct, and go to great lengths to explain why other interpretations of the bible, other bibles or holy books, geology, meteorology, climatology, plate tectonics, physics, chemistry, biology, volcanology, are all incorrect.

ONLY THEY ARE CORRECT.

So, I am quite sure that everyone who says "No, you don't understand, my group has studied this very intensely, and here are the reasons WE are right and everyone ELSE is WRONG...", is as sincere as all of the OTHER people they say are wrong, but also say THEY are wrong too.

So they can ALL prove why they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Including all of the theists in this thread making similar claims to be "the correct ones".

The rest of us sometimes just say "OK, you convinced me, everyone is wrong"...to every claim, because that part IS right, all religions ARE wrong...unless religions lie, or, make mistakes...as its religions saying the OTHER religions are wrong.




If mistaken about the other religions being wrong....they could also be mistaken about THEIRS being right.

There is no consensus among the religions about god, or how to follow him/her/it, or even if it wants to "be followed".

No one has even shown if there is evidence of god caring WHAT happens.


Little Jimmy HAD to get brain cancer, because little Jimmy's operation will make Doctor late to a wedding, and at that wedding, the ceiling collapsed, and the doctor would have been killed...

...and 5 years later, would not have been alive to save little Johnny from HIS brain cancer......

...and little Johnny grew up to be president....


And so forth.

If god was who he's supposed to be, there'd be no cosmic pinball machine...don't collapse the ceiling, there....simple, and a wedding party doesn't get crushed to make a president.

God is BLAMED for things, and thanked...but, did he flood a city to punish it, really?

Or is it just the weather doing what it does?

I'd say it was the weather.


Would an all powerful god help one guy get his dog back, and let 1,000's drown?

Is the bad stuff from Satan, and the good from god?

That's convenient...except the all powerful god LET Satan do the bad stuff.


That gets back to the weak, flawed, jealous god...maybe Satan is more powerful than god?

If the world is getting worse SINCE the "messiah", that would make sense...the power of god was no match, and, things got worse.


We would not be his flock of sheeples, except for being fleeced by tithing, etc...but more like fighting cocks or pit bulls, where he watches us fight for his amusement?

If god exists, the evidence would point to him being quite evil.

Thank GOD the evidence instead points to him AND his Satan, not existing at all.

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Old 10-16-2015, 07:10 PM #6056
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej,

I get that you are trying to get us to imagine a box so large that it contains everything. But I think using the word "box" throws us for a loop.

Must it be a box? A box by design has an "end", or edge, or border. It defines a space that it contains, and as a result designates that there is space outside.

Instead of trying to imagine that box, imagine being inside it and trying to figure out if space is infinite.

If I imagine myself inside an immense box and traveling in what I think is a straight path, I suspect that eventually I will reach a very obvious border. I would wonder whats on the other side and maybe come to the conclusion that there must be "more space."

BUT... What if it is a sphere? It might be more difficult to detect its border if space time warped at the edges and the "straight" path I think I'm on is actually being bent around the inside of the sphere. Kinda like a satellite in an elliptical orbit. Everything that I could detect, all my stimulus might indicate that I am traveling in an absolutely straight path, in a constant direction, but since I am unable to reach or perceive an edge I assume there is none. I just go round and round.
Depending on my trajectory and the size of the sphere it might be possible for my path to so rarely cross the same spot that I am unable to tell that I've been there before.
It would appear to me that space just went on forever.
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:28 PM #6057
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
Teej,

I get that you are trying to get us to imagine a box so large that it contains everything. But I think using the word "box" throws us for a loop.

Must it be a box? A box by design has an "end", or edge, or border. It defines a space that it contains, and as a result designates that there is space outside.

Instead of trying to imagine that box, imagine being inside it and trying to figure out if space is infinite.

If I imagine myself inside an immense box and traveling in what I think is a straight path, I suspect that eventually I will reach a very obvious border. I would wonder whats on the other side and maybe come to the conclusion that there must be "more space."

BUT... What if it is a sphere? It might be more difficult to detect its border if space time warped at the edges and the "straight" path I think I'm on is actually being bent around the inside of the sphere. Kinda like a satellite in an elliptical orbit. Everything that I could detect, all my stimulus might indicate that I am traveling in an absolutely straight path, in a constant direction, but since I am unable to reach or perceive an edge I assume there is none. I just go round and round.
Depending on my trajectory and the size of the sphere it might be possible for my path to so rarely cross the same spot that I am unable to tell that I've been there before.
It would appear to me that space just went on forever.


I see your point, but, in this context, it's not applicable. You are correct about it going on forever, its the shape mattering that seems off.





The entire concept is how you can have space WITH a border?


It doesn't matter if you can TELL where the ends ARE or not, they either have ends, or, they don't.

A box works because if you can't imagine a box, you're in trouble, but trying to imagine an amorphous blob is hard no matter WHAT size it is.


The point is not the SHAPE, it is THE NATURE OF INFINITY.


IE: The universe has no shape at all, it simply exists in all directions, forever. "The Box" is a way to simplify the concept for a thought experiment.


Forget the slide shows on spacetime, space curving back on itself, etc...that will just make you forget its our universe vs THE universe we mean.

THE UNIVERSE is the "box" if you will.

OURS is of course within it, as a subset.

The point is that no matter HOW large something is, there will always be something outside of it.

If not, what IS the "border"?


It is impossible for it to NOT be infinite, because what's on the other side of the border? There can't be nothing on the other side, or, its not a side.


No matter how far you go, you can go farther.

No matter how long you wait, you could wait longer.

No matter how far back in time you go, you could go farther.


Now, WHAT you will SEE when you "are on your way" is unknown.......there may be vast stretches of absolutely nothing at all going on.

The most likely scenario is simply a repeat of what we already know CAN happen as far as photons, etc.

Time, as far as OUR universe goes, and space, as far as OUR universe goes...seems to have a fairly definite beginning, and, might have an outer boundary....that we are constantly expanding.

The key thing to remember is that we are expanding OUR universe into the rest of THE universe. (Otherwise, there's nothing to expand INTO, etc...)

We also know that the RATE of expansion is ACCELERATING.

The farther out stuff is, the faster its accelerating.

If you fire something from a gun, its typically fastest at the muzzle, and slows continually from there on out. There is air resistance, gravity pulling it down, and so forth, essentially, resistance.

If things are gaining speed light years away, that's not the same as simply maintaining momentum due to a lack of resistance.



So, there's something else either pulling them, and/or pushing them MORE than when they started their journey.


Pushing means that matter/energy could be popping up between where they started/are now...or, that somewhere off deep in the parts of space, where no light/signal has come back to us from yet...something else out there is pulling them faster and faster towards it...something beyond our current range of detection.

Math says that ~ 70% of what's out there (mass-wise at least) IN range is not yet detectable by us. They're working on that.

We have no clues yet as to what's out beyond our range...as its beyond our range.




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Old 10-16-2015, 07:40 PM #6058
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I don't understand. what is the difference between "our" universe vs "THE" universe ?
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:46 PM #6059
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
I don't understand. what is the difference between "our" universe vs "THE" universe ?
Ours is the one with the big bang theory...also called "the observable universe".

Its inside the rest of the universe.


That means that there could be an infinite number of "bangs" going on right now....but they'd be so far away that we may never see a single one.


Last edited by Teej; 10-16-2015 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:55 PM #6060
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Is this the same idea a multiverse?
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Old 10-16-2015, 07:58 PM #6061
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
Is this the same idea a multiverse?
No, those are really more like parallel universes, rather than being distant.

Those are where its like ours, but the bald people have hair, and the grass mows us, or other variations.


That concept is more related to many dimensions than to the vastness of space.


MANY people are confused, as most science articles do not make the distinction.

All the "age of the universe" calculations, and "size of the universe" calculations are based upon the OBSERVABLE universe. They DO just say "And the universe is x years old an 91 billion light years across, and red shifting via the Hubble Constant", and so forth...

But ALL measurements and calculations are ALWAYS talking about OUR universe, not what we will someday expand INTO...as we have no WAY of measuring that.

There ARE NO measurements of anything EXCEPT our universe for that very reason.

There are distant regions so far away, and going so fast, away from us...that radio waves from them to us, or from us to them...would not even be able to catch up, ever...as the speed increases beyond the speed of light of the radio wave. (The WAVE might be accelerated too though, so, that's still theoretical)





What is observable has changed over the years.


Bronze age and even earlier people saw the moon and stars....but had no way to know how large they were or how far away they were, or that the arrangement they were in was not fixed.

They DID observe back then that the sky seemed to rotate over them every day, and, every night...and the stars, and the sun, "rose and set" in the same "place".

THis is why they thought the stars were fixed in the firmament...they LOOKED like they were in the same place every night, etc.


Of course, the stars they saw and the constellations they saw, were made up of stars unconnected to each other, and a really bright one might be a super super bright star very very far away, or a dim star very close, etc....and, as the star's LIGHT was only THEN reaching the earth...that star itself was no longer even there any more.

Comparing star maps used for astrology to modern star placements, etc....the astrological signs are not even where they were supposed to be to cause the "effects" they were supposed to cause......


....because enough time passed for the constellations viewed thousands of years ago, to eventually no longer exist.

To the ancients, the moon and stars were about as far from the earth as each other...and, a "falling Star" was called that, because they thought one of those little stars fell.

That used to be the observable universe.

Later, we got telescopes, and math, and figured out that the stars were WAAAY further away, and the moon was still really far, but WAAAY closer than stars....that the stars WERE NOT FIXED, but moving...and, that WE orbited the sun instead of the other way around (Actually, that part was even before telescopes...).

Then we added radio telescopes, better scopes and computers to analyze data...and found out that what we could observe went WAAAY the eff out there.



If one day we invent a way to see out farther, with something we can detect that's faster than light for example...we might expand what's observable yet again.

Last edited by Teej; 10-16-2015 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 10-16-2015, 08:39 PM #6062
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 10-16-2015, 08:42 PM #6063
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

LOL

Tape worms can be lead out via the mouth w/o killing them.

Getting someone to adopt them is tough though.
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Old 10-16-2015, 08:58 PM #6064
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

Tape worms can be lead out via the mouth w/o killing them.

Getting someone to adopt them is tough though.
I thought it was fitting given someone brought up "morality" previously. I'm thinking he can adopt

As for me, I'm morally bankrupt, only thing I want inside my belly is booze, which is appropriate given that it's national alcohol day today.
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