Old 10-09-2015, 01:45 PM #5953
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I understand now what you are saying, it does seem like it would be a valid concern for a nonbeliever.

The rapture is also a false teaching and will only result in Christians following the antichrist thinking he is here to rapture them away before the tribulation period begins, when it is the antichrist and the tribulation period that comes first before the return of Jesus. This is worrisome to many Christians, and also very controversial.

As for soldiers in Muslim countries, do you not watch the news or at least videos on YouTube? It looks like at least half of them shout "Allahu Akbar" when they fire their weapons ("God is greater" or "God is [the] greatest"), Muslims are also always saying to each other "if it is the will of Allah it will happen".

There will always be some people on the wrong side or maybe I should say on both sides that will believe that God is on their side.

It is easy to start a war with Muslims but it won't end easily, if you ask them when the war will end they will say it will end when it is the will of Allah that it end, if you ask them how they will know when it is the will of Allah that the war end, they will answer: when the war ends. I myself believe there is never a wrong time for diplomacy and negotiations and I am constantly disturbed by what our warmongering leaders are doing, but I don't think it's due to their religious beliefs.

As far as doing the work of Satan goes, there are two kinds of people, some do it without even knowing it, and others choose to do it willingly. There is an analogy to this in prophecy, those who have the mark of the beast in there right hand (those who do his work) and those with the mark in their forehead (those who willingly choose to follow him).

Am not saying this applies to you, am sorry your mother thinks this, I see you are trying to look at things logically from without a belief system, but people with different beliefs can't easily comprehend each other's thinking.

Alan

Easily would be the key issue, as far as comprehending another's ideas.

It DOES require an investment of time and effort to do that.

Ironically, many people never really examine their OWN ideas either, as that ALSO requires an investment of of time and effort, etc.


This is one of the reasons so many have trouble articulating their ideas. They THINK they know what they believe, and that they arrived at those beliefs rationally....as a default self impression.

Needing to copy/paste what you yourself believe implies that you believe whatever the group says you do, and that you therefore have "packages of beliefs".


Its a bit funny, to me at least, that a person would look at an an ancient myth concerning the end of the world, and then evaluate it, and decide parts of it were obviously true and representative of reality, and parts were wrong and NOT representative of reality.

This was, ironically, an attempt to "UNpackage" a set of beliefs held by a group...by actually examining the package, and coming to the conclusion that at least SOME of the belief was actually not representative of reality.

THAT is how it starts...the slow torturous unraveling of the mythology, one idea at a time.

Its great that you are one of the few people who CAN do that, who CAN start to examine your beliefs in a critical manner.

Kudos!



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Old 10-09-2015, 05:35 PM #5954
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
..... I am constantly disturbed by what our warmongering leaders are doing, but I don't think it's due to their religious beliefs.
I suspect you are correct. I actually think many who claim to be christian dont really believe and only claim it to get christian votes. I think an atheist would have less chance than a lesbian black woman, since many have the opinion that atheist equates to bad person

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
As far as doing the work of Satan goes, there are two kinds of people, some do it without even knowing it, and others choose to do it willingly. There is an analogy to this in prophecy, those who have the mark of the beast in there right hand (those who do his work) and those with the mark in their forehead (those who willingly choose to follow him).
how coud I ever know if I did his work unwittingly? are my thoughts not my own? should I not trust them? I do evaluate my beliefs to make sure there are valid reasons and not just wishful thinking. is that how he gets you?
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:22 PM #5955
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I suspect you are correct. I actually think many who claim to be christian dont really believe and only claim it to get christian votes. I think an atheist would have less chance than a lesbian black woman, since many have the opinion that atheist equates to bad person
I think so too. I think many are psychopaths. I would not be surprised if some have pagan beliefs or if some are Satanists. Some of them are evil, you can't be a real Christian and still be the back stabbing son of a bitch you need to be to get elected, and also sell out to the special interests that will get you elected and keep you in office. We don't have democracy in the U.S.

I would love to see the democrats choose an athiest lesbian black woman as a nominee for president to show just how progressive they are. but then again I don't like republicans either, I no longer trust any of them, they are controlled by the same special interests and we won't see a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
how coud I ever know if I did his work unwittingly?
You couldn't, you could only find out sometime later, I believe in karma, but I hope we are not responsible for what we do out of ignorance.

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are my thoughts not my own? should I not trust them?
That's a good question, I am sure nearly everyone thinks that their thoughts are entirely their own. I think our thoughts are almost all our own, but I believe that enough like minded people, people gathered together listening to the same thing, or even people around the world that are thinking about the same thing can influence the thoughts of the others or even of those near them. Of course I could be way off on this and it will probably sound crazy to you, no doubt you and others here would call this supernatural so it couldn't be real, I don't think it's supernatural, I think people's thoughts can cause currents of energy to flow between them and effect the others, I think this is how telepathy/remote viewing/ESP work, and why we have some of our random thoughts pop into our mind. I am not quite talking about a collective consciousness, but a small trace of one. It may sound crazy, it's just an idea I have, I hope I haven't opened a can of worms here.

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I do evaluate my beliefs to make sure there are valid reasons and not just wishful thinking. is that how he gets you?
Sort of but not quite. It is a common belief that Satan spreads confusion and lies, dividing people and turning them against each other, as he can outsmart us it can be more difficult to discern what is true or not true.

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Old 10-09-2015, 10:46 PM #5956
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It is a common belief that Satan spreads confusion and lies, dividing people and turning them against each other, as he can outsmart us it can be more difficult to discern what is true or not true.
The way I see evil, or Satan, is that it is like a black hole, trying to rip the individuality from us while forcing us to join into itself to make it stronger at the same time. I view good or God to be like suns, sharing of itself to all, making connections through that sharing but not destroying, allowing individuality.... just don't get too close to the sun in a space ship, it can absorb you just like a black hole too. From this, it seems everything has a base as well as a dual nature.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:22 PM #5957
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Sigh.

So, some of us apparently believe in yet another supernatural immortal being...Satan.


The same Satan who is diametrically opposed to the forces of good, and, is waiting to fight god for dominion of the earth.

The same Satan who god cast down, and, the same Satan who knew god personally.


The same Satan who knew god personally, AND also assumed he could BEAT him.

THAT Satan would therefore consider god to NOT be all powerful, because, he knew god, and, STILL thought he could beat him.

IF god was all powerful, no amount of massed evil could prevail...and, Satan would know that, if it were TRUE.

So, maybe it's not true?

This is also the same Satan who PUNISHES people who ALSO want to fight god? WTF?

Join ME, and I'll torture you for all eternity! (Hell of a recruitment strategy?)

Why would Satan TORTURE those he wants to JOIN FORCES with him?

You would think he'd have them spend all that time in a boot camp or something to make them fight better?

Give them morale boosts and group activities to promote a team atmosphere?


Essentially, the way the BIBLE has it, he works for god, torturing those who DISOBEY/DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD.



THAT doesn't sound like an opponent of god, it sounds like he works for god...and, as god has a plan for everyone according to the bible, that must have included Satan...and his minions, etc.

So, essentially, that would all make Satan one of GOD'S minions.

So, all the evil is because GOD WANTED IT, and, had Satan take the blame.

It's obviously a case of cosmic good cop/bad cop...

..and y'all are being played. They're obviously on the same team.


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Old 10-09-2015, 11:45 PM #5958
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Why would Satan TORTURE those he wants to JOIN FORCES with him?
Because humans are God's creation so he hates anything that God has created.
Satan uses deceit to trick people into evil and ultimately gets their soul.
Don't think for one minute that he likes you.
As a crude example, Hitler hated every Jew (and other races), he killed those that were no use to him, used the others for his purpose and killed them too eventually.
Satan is in total rebellion against God and knows his time is short, he is just out to cause as much destruction to God's creation as possible.
He knows he can't win but in his deluded mind he still tries.
God has put His bid in to save you, Satan has also put his bid in to win you and you will have the deciding vote on your eternal future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
So, all the evil is because GOD WANTED IT, and, had Satan take the blame.

It's obviously a case of cosmic good cop/bad cop...

..and y'all are being played.

NO !
God wanted His creation to be His, willingly.
But for His creation to follow Him willingly, He had to give us all free will.
A choice is not a choice if there's no free will to make that choice.
Choose God or choose the antithesis of God, Satan, total evil.
So all of us have been given free will to choose God or Satan.
Even Satan and one third of the angels that followed him had free will and they chose to rebel.
But it wasn't until they rebelled that they realised what it means to be cast out for ever, just like Eve when she was deceived by the devil and Adam too.
So too, we all face that same temptation.

God though has made a path for us to regain that relationship with Him and that is what Satan can't stand, because there's no redemption for Satan and his followers.
Don't fall into the lie that Satan has spun, he has lost and wants you to suffer with him.
God made the only path for redemption for us, to take while there's still time.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

John 3:16-19
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
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are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀

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Old 10-10-2015, 12:34 AM #5959
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Nah, not so much, I wrote a post about Satan but I don't really buy into that idea very much, although I do believe there are some truly negative or evil beings in the universe who might qualify as fitting most of the criteria religions have created.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:12 AM #5960
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

God wanted His creation to be His, willingly.
But for His creation to follow Him willingly, He had to give us all free will.
A choice is not a choice if there's no free will to make that choice.
Choose God or choose the antithesis of God, Satan, total evil.
So all of us have been given free will to choose God or Satan.

If I truly have freewill then I choose NEITHER. I reject both outright. Thats OK right? Since I have freewill and all.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:15 AM #5961
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
God wanted His creation to be His, willingly.
But for His creation to follow Him willingly, He had to give us all free will.
A choice is not a choice if there's no free will to make that choice.
Choose God or choose the antithesis of God, Satan, total evil.
So all of us have been given free will to choose God or Satan.

If I truly have free will then I choose NEITHER. I reject both outright. Thats OK right?
Yep that's ok, try that line on God !
By rejecting God, you default to Satan.
Can't be neutral.

RB
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 10-10-2015, 04:11 AM #5962
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I suspect there is a place for those who reject both too, we may have already done that and are living our lives here now talking stories of the past... The deeper physicists dig the more it seems we are living in a created reality which is digital in nature, at its base. Some think of it as a virtual reality, but when I've brought this up in the past, I get a lot of flack about how we can't be living inside a huge computer, well..... it certainly isn't that, computers would be so basic compared to what runs the universe as to be nothing in comparison, although with the common denominator of both being digital.

When it comes to free will, I don't think self-conscious sentient life can exist without it, otherwise we are just a programmed machine. If God wanted to create self-conscious beings, I think there would be no choice in the matter for even a God whether we had free will or not, we simply couldn't be aware as we are as sentient beings or alive without being free to think and do as we wish, within what is possible in this universe and our individual capabilities, of course. All of that said, I don't believe in the kind of God running the universe or having created it religions teach, their ideas are antiquated and far too limited in many respects, especially the common USA versions of the Christian religion with their faltering Bibles. Sure, there are ethics and good things in the Bible, perhaps even a sprinkling of truth too, but it is a mix of that and complete bunk, in my not so humble opionion. Of course, I could be so wrong on anything I'm saying here, I'm just giving my thoughts, not what I know.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 10-10-2015 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 10-10-2015, 04:33 AM #5963
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

And so.... mr Alaskan, you find this easier to believe than what I have explained to you in the past?
Ok, so be it, we'll see..... Hell of a price to pay though, if you're wrong.



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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
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the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 10-10-2015, 04:51 AM #5964
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If there be a God who would punish me for being wrong, as little as I can know for sure, and that creator knowing how men can fail in understanding, then to hell with that God, it created the problem by not showing the truth itself. Thinking there is a creator who purposely hides itself from us and expects us to "have faith" in it is foolishness, that is the foolishness of religions and those who believe that tripe. There is no God who would punish any of us for not following some man made religion, whether they claim it is Gods church or not. If by chance I am wrong, I'd rather not be a part of it, hell is a better place than a heaven where only those who believe what they cannot know can be admitted. What you see in these words is my anger toward religion, or rather the men who use religion to control others or gain power, not "God". In other words, I don't believe everything or even most of what religions teach as ultimate truth (as ready as they are to state they are), they are no closer to God than Microsoft corporation, period. OK, now all of that said, I think we are all equally close to God, or that thing called God if I dare use the same word religions use to describe it, we don't need religion to be spiritual, often they are not mutual. If you want to discuss spirituality and leave religion out of it, that is an entirely different discussion and I honor it.

Maybe I'm in the wrong thread, since it is titled LPF religion, LOL. It should be re-titled LPF religion and or spirituality!
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 10-10-2015 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:56 AM #5965
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

But I have freewill AND I don't believe in a satan. If I truly have the freedom to choose, and choose neither, then THAT is the default. Neither.
Alternately, if by not choosing one I'm FORCED to " choose" the other, then I do not have freewill. Not even the illusion of freewill.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Yep that's ok, try that line on God !
By rejecting God, you default to Satan.
Can't be neutral.

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Old 10-10-2015, 06:07 AM #5966
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
NO !
God wanted His creation to be His, willingly.
But for His creation to follow Him willingly, He had to give us all free will.
A choice is not a choice if there's no free will to make that choice.
Choose God or choose the antithesis of God, Satan, total evil.
So all of us have been given free will to choose God or Satan.
Even Satan and one third of the angels that followed him had free will and they chose to rebel.
But it wasn't until they rebelled that they realised what it means to be cast out for ever, just like Eve when she was deceived by the devil and Adam too.
So too, we all face that same temptation.

God though has made a path for us to regain that relationship with Him and that is what Satan can't stand, because there's no redemption for Satan and his followers.
Don't fall into the lie that Satan has spun, he has lost and wants you to suffer with him.
God made the only path for redemption for us, to take while there's still time.



Willingly? So when a Mafia boss send his henchmen to extort money from local business owners by telling them "If you don't pay us for protection, something really bad is going to happen to you", is that business owner paying them willingly?
How is your despot of a god not exactly like a mafia boss?

If your god really wanted his flawed creations to come to him willingly, he wouldn't have the threats of eternal torture in play.

So free will. Let me guess, god doesn't provide un-deniable, definitive tangible proof of its existence because that would violate our free will to choose and come to him willingly, right?
So instead he plays hide and seek, cat and mouse with the creations he knew damn well were going to fall from grace because of his omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent nature. He KNEW when he created that tree of good and evil what the outcome would be. yet he did it anyway. What a sick twisted piece of work.
So he created this reality and the rules that govern it. In that reality there are methods to determine what is real, true, right, wrong ext. We use these methods to understand EVERYTHING in reality yet when it comes to the most important question, the existence of god, somehow that answer must be taken on faith.

Back to your freewill. So If you are like most theists that try to explain away all the horrors that god allows, and the convenient scapegoated reasoning of why there is no actual tangible proof of god, its because of free will. Because he wants us to seek him, He wants us to come to him willingly and definitive knowledge of his existence would violate this free will and take away our willingness.
So if a person has complete knowledge of God he or she can't willingly choose to not follow?
You ever hear of Lucifer? He sure as hell knew God existed. Sure as hell knew God's power and wrath yet....Chose to not follow him.

Like Alaskan so eloquently put it, if there was a god that would torture me for eternity because I used the very same criteria he created that gives us accurate conclusions to evaluate his existence? Well then to hell with God. Even if I believed in him, if that is his twisted game I would never follow such a being.
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Old 10-10-2015, 06:13 AM #5967
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
If there be a God who would punish me for being wrong, as little as I can know for sure, and that creator knowing how men can fail in understanding, then to hell with that God, it created the problem by not showing the truth itself. Thinking there is a creator who purposely hides itself from us and expects us to "have faith" in it is foolishness, that is the foolishness of religions and those who believe that tripe. There is no God who would punish any of us for not following some man made religion, whether they claim it is Gods church or not. If by chance I am wrong, I'd rather not be a part of it, hell is a better place than a heaven where only those who believe what they cannot know can be admitted. What you see in these words is my anger toward religion, or rather the men who use religion to control others or gain power, not "God". In other words, I don't believe everything or even most of what religions teach as ultimate truth (as ready as they are to state they are), they are no closer to God than Microsoft corporation, period. OK, now all of that said, I think we are all equally close to God, or that thing called God if I dare use the same word religions use to describe it, we don't need religion to be spiritual, often they are not mutual. If you want to discuss spirituality and leave religion out of it, that is an entirely different discussion and I honor it.

Maybe I'm in the wrong thread, since it is titled LPF religion, LOL. It should be re-titled LPF religion and or spirituality!
I like your concepts, and we can all be hopeful without being puppets to men who would exploit his brothers and sisters, and we can learn to accept that some things we simply can not know beyond the shadow of a doubt and that's ok.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:43 AM #5968
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
If by chance I am wrong, I'd rather not be a part of it, hell is a better place than a heaven where only those who believe what they cannot know can be admitted.
By definition Hell is not a place to desire:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41


Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
But I have freewill AND I don't believe in a satan. If I truly have the freedom to choose, and choose neither, then THAT is the default. Neither.
Alternately, if by not choosing one I'm FORCED to " choose" the other, then I do not have freewill. Not even the illusion of freewill.
This is what your statement sounds like:
Imagine I say to you:
"But I don't believe in gravity, even if you can prove it, I can't see it nor it's effects, if I have free will then my non-belief in gravity means I can just float in the air, I will neither go up nor will I fall down, I'm neutral hence I just float."
Yes I know it's a simplistic comparison but I hope it shows you how it sounds, at least to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
How is your despot of a god not exactly like a mafia boss?

If your god really wanted his flawed creations to come to him willingly, he wouldn't have the threats of eternal torture in play.

So If you are like most theists that try to explain away all the horrors that god allows,

You ever hear of Lucifer? He sure as hell knew God existed. Sure as hell knew God's power and wrath yet....Chose to not follow him.

Like Alaskan so eloquently put it, if there was a god that would torture me for eternity because I used the very same criteria he created that gives us accurate conclusions to evaluate his existence? Well then to hell with God. Even if I believed in him, if that is his twisted game I would never follow such a being.
You're blaming the wrong person for all the horrors of this world.
God won't stop all these horrors in the world to show you how fallen man is under the influence of Sin.
Sin that Lucifer introduced into this perfect world and corrupted it.
Yes Lucifer knew God's power and did indeed choose to defy Him.
Lucifer is the epitome of Pride, that was his downfall, and all who epitomise Lucifer have that same defiant pride, hence their demise is immanent.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 16:18
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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