Old 10-08-2015, 11:35 PM #5937
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Weird how when it comes to a laser, people shop around a lot to get the best specs for the best price, but when it comes to your everlasting soul, people just go with whatever their parents believe and dig their heels in.

Speak to any Muslim. Ask Google. Read the Quran. Have a genuine look at the rest of the world's religions. SHOP AROUND
Always with the wrong assumptions about me I have researched these things. I wanted to hear it from you, "And Muhammad demonstrated Allah exists." strikes me as a strange thing for an atheist to say. Ether way I wouldn't get on someone for only knowing one religion, it's the thinking critically that will bring out the truth.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Divine revelation is where god reveals himself to you... direct communication. Did god never reveal himself to you? Visually? Audibly? He has to many Christians. Why were you left out?
So you actually believe God has revealed himself yet you claim he doesn't exist?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Posted several pages back: http://i.imgur.com/K97Fk.png
Yes that is a wonderful png but it doesn't answer the question.

"You'll find different opinions on what the consensus is. How is that decided?"


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Old 10-09-2015, 01:33 AM #5938
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Cyp, my earlier statement that consciousness acts upon the brain as an external source really ought to have clued you in better to understanding my position.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 10-09-2015, 01:46 AM #5939
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Consensus doesn't equal truth, and no one knowing the truth doesn't change it from being the truth either.

Demonstrating something doesn't mean it happened.

I could demonstrate to you how I flapped my arms and flew, but, it doesn't mean I can fly by flapping my arms.

Saying I saw god doesn't mean I saw god, merely that I said I did, etc.

So if I DID, only I would actually know for sure.

After that, its about the expectations of proof OTHER'S might require to believe me.

Level one would be that they believe that I am not lying, just mistaken.

Level two would be that I am not lying, AND I am not mistaken.


The burden for level one is a fairly low hurdle. The burden of proof for level two is typically enormous.



So, BOTH the new testament and the Quran were mostly written well after the demise of the alleged figures.

In the case of Jesus, there are no definitive records of him other than in the bible, which is of course what we wanted to check in of itself...and therefore of no use in that regard.

There are some records that indicate as many as 20 people calling themselves Jesus in that approximate time frame, but zero of them matched the chronology and stories in the bible...but a composite of them plus apostle composites, can be put together to indicate a potential jesus for the bible's use.

No Roman, jewish, or other records mention the guy. The dead sea scrolls seemed to refer to an apostle-like character, called "The Liar". The jewish zealot rebels fighting Rome were also mentioned.

So, history-wise, Jesus, as portrayed in the bible, is missing.


Muhammad on the other hand, seems to HAVE BEEN referred to by outside sources.

Many of these were found to be forgeries and fakes, just like most of the early biblical sources were.

Some are considered potentially valid though, meaning that they could be false, but, seem to be true, and, history-wise, Muhammad is a potentially present entity...in that at least OTHER groups did mention him going around, mostly preaching about Abraham, etc.

So, Muhammad was reported to be going around preaching...by non-muslim/non-affiliated groups...such as the jews, etc.


No one outside of the bible mentioned Jesus preaching, anything, ever...just someone he was probably based upon who was fighting the Romans as a zealot rebel, and was caught, and executed.



So, you can SEE the Dali Lama for example, and, if you worship him (I don't know anyone who does personally....its just an example), and, thousands of years from now, followers might be able to find records of his exploits and sayings, etc...as history.

If someone says, he never existed, you can go back into the records, and find evidence that he did.


If someone lived who was supposed to have changed the world, you'd think SOMEONE would have remarked on it.

There are records of crop harvests, general news such as wars, famine, floods, invasions, new technologies, immigrant migrations, government changes, etc...and no mention of a guy who changed the world...and spent years and years spreading the word....performing miracles along the way.

So, records of potters/trades coming through, and magicians, singers, visitors in general, the weather, war, etc, but no son's of god.


Seems odd to leave that out, no?

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Old 10-09-2015, 01:58 AM #5940
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Cyp, my earlier statement that consciousness acts upon the brain as an external source really ought to have clued you in better to understanding my position.
This is as close as mind connection has gotten so far, experiments with head sets:


Scientists claim 'telepathy' success after sending mental message from 4,000 miles away | Daily Mail Online

So, if you have an electrical device on your scalp that reads brain waves, and you have a thought, the signal is sent to the other set.


Its not mind reading...its electrical.

Brain waves are electrical though, so, theoretically, it may be possible to design/develop a sensitive enough receptor to interpret the signals, the same way a wired person's dream can be interpreted at least broadly based upon what areas are being lit up, etc.

A dolphin or bat can interpret sound waves via sonar accurately enough to catch a swimming fish/flying mosquito, etc...and some blind people have learned to use clicks to navigate the same way, with remarkable success.

Catfish, sharks, eels, etc, have the ability to detect electromagnetic fields, and, for some, such as the eels, to send out fields as well.


So, while we don't see how, now, to detect brain waves with the required resolution, its not impossible, technically at least....based upon natural phenomenon.


So, no spiritual solution, its physiologically plausible without the supernatural or crystals, etc.


Think of it this way, we don't need the SUPER Natural, because the natural is pretty super all by itself.


IE: Natural explanations, as they always do historically, will prove to be the explanation for everything else. We are simply finding out that nature has a lot of tricks up her sleeve that we are constantly uncovering.



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Old 10-09-2015, 02:05 AM #5941
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Always with the wrong assumptions about me I have researched these things. I wanted to hear it from you, "And Muhammad demonstrated Allah exists." strikes me as a strange thing for an atheist to say. Ether way I wouldn't get on someone for only knowing one religion, it's the thinking critically that will bring out the truth.




So you actually believe God has revealed himself yet you claim he doesn't exist?




Yes that is a wonderful png but it doesn't answer the question.

"You'll find different opinions on what the consensus is. How is that decided?"
I find this hard to believe. I want to think you are smart enough to realize cyp is proposing hypotheticals and stating what he knows others claim to believe to contrast them with yours in an attempt to help you to see the parallels and think critically. I wouldnt say thinking critically brings out the truth, but it is certainly helpful for sifting out what isnt true

and yes, that did answer the question. congruence with reality while making the fewest assumptions (occam's razor) is how it is decided, though everyone is free to believe things which are not congruent with reality, and many do. probably all of us to some degree

I thought I'd take a moment to tell about some concerns of mine and reason I am anti-religion

A lot I get asked why I care what others believe. why am I not content to let them believe what they want to. it's because what we believe affects how we behave. I am concerned that many christians and other religions as well believe in an appocalyptic end to the world. I am concerned that such people would be less inclined to preserve the earth, because they believe it'll be destroyed and they'll go to heaven. I don't like the idea of world leaders who have their finger on "the button" who also believe in a final armageddon. my least favorite kind of prophesy is the self fulfilling kind. I believe religion holds people back from their full potential, and I think I could demonstrate numerous times it deliberately obstructs progress.

I've naturally heard pascal's wager arguement, which is essentially that it is better to believe in god "just in case". you have nothing to lose if you're wrong, you'll be dead anyway, but everything to lose if you're right and go to hell. problems with that arguement aside, I posit that maybe its better for you believers to believe that no god exists and no messiah is coming to save us from ourselves, "just in case". that way, we can preserve the only world we have, "just in case" it is in fact the only one we will ever get. it'd be a shame to destroy it, perhaps deliberately, in an attempt to force god to act to save it or take us to heaven, if there is no god. if I am wrong, at least the only person's well being I risk is my own. if you (the world's religions that believe the world will end) are collectively wrong and follow this violent pageant to it's end, you risk not only your own well being, but also that of everyone else

that said if you are a believer and still make every effort to preserve the planet, kudos. I believe there are passages in the bible about being good stewards of the earth, pay attention to those please. I still think if you believed the earth was the only home we will have you would have greater motive to protect it, but i'll take what I can get
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Old 10-09-2015, 02:43 AM #5942
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Good points Shaken.

I like your idea about the flip side of Pascal's wager. I usually think of it more in terms of why not believe in Islam, Catholicism, and Zeus, etc., IE: ALL of the religions..."just in case"..as why put all the eggs in a jesus basket, when there are so many other baskets...as far as the wager goes.

The idea that the wager is that the EARTH might be required in the future, so don't trash it because you think you'll be raptured away anyway, etc...

...is great.



The thing that bothers me about some forms of religion is that it is anti-knowledge.

They've structured it so as to force followers to "choose" their faith, or science...as if you can't have both.

At some point, it IS hard to have both, as science shows natural causes and explanations for more and more of what was assumed by the uneducated to be supernatural.

Eventually, there will be too little left to attribute to the supernatural...but, those who were trained to be retentive of supernatural causes will simply deny the explanations....to maintain the supernatural presence that theistic religion requires as its frame work.

IE: No super natural, no theistic religion...as a creator presence requires that creator to be supernatural.


As now a days, even the POPE is coming around to saying science is real, and don't worry about the past...the church is coming into the modern era. One day they may even stop transferring pedophile priests to new parishes, etc, instead of having them jailed, etc.

So, the Pope is damned conservative, no woman priests, etc, but, he did have his staff and himself look at the data for climate change, and, saw it was real, and, he did say so...and push the steward aspect of the belief system.


Now, the Pope is not a big oil sort of guy, they give the church no money.

Senators, etc, who DO get big checks from the oil companies fall all over themselves to hold up snowballs and snicker that it doesn't look that hot out, etc...so they get more checks from big oil, and so forth.


So, the parties that get checks from big oil say there's no global climate change, or even that its would be a good thing, and quote skewed data and obsolete reports, etc.

The parties that are unbiased/get no checks, say there is climate change.


There is no one standing to make money acknowledging/pretending that there is climate change...there is no incentive to fabricate on a global basis.

Sure, an individual party might fudge some results, scientists DO do that sometimes...so they get more grant money, etc...but, the big grant money is from big oil...no one else wants to pay for studies as badly...Heck, hold up a snow ball and they send a check.

So, the only group that needs there to NOT be climate change is the group that would be screwed up if their product's future was cut short/jeopardized.

Everyone else wants to know if its happening so they can stop it.

Stopping it might hurt big oil, etc...so, they are funding opposition, conservative talk shows, anyone who might help them.

By spreading lies and deception, making people think "Its controversial" and not proven, etc...they buy more time to divest holdings, take evasive maneuvers, and, ultimately, make more money.

As soon as they politicized the climate, an entire portion of the population was essentially told "This is what our group believes". The other group will lie and try to trick you into thinking they are right, don't listen to them".

It worked, so far, like a charm. The US is paralyzed by warring factions.


If more people woke up, and took the earth based pascal's wager to heart, we'd all be better off.

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Old 10-09-2015, 03:01 AM #5943
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
So you actually believe God has revealed himself yet you claim he doesn't exist?


You're smart enough to understand the devil's advocate concept, Mr Duke. Playing dumb is an inelegant way of dodging a question. I understand if you don't want to talk about how God isn't speaking with you personally. I'd be upset, too.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Yes that is a wonderful png but it doesn't answer the question.

"You'll find different opinions on what the consensus is. How is that decided?"
How does the image not answer the question? Please view it again and be more specific with your question. Or perhaps give an example of one of the instances in science where there isn't consensus and we can discuss it.
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:12 AM #5944
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This won't be enough for someone who doesn't want to see that consciousness acts upon the brain and is not the primary source, but for those who have an open mind, perhaps it might be enough to consider more thought on the subject.

https://youtu.be/F6TRsTUj8WM
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Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 10-09-2015, 03:20 AM #5945
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post





How does the image not answer the question? Please view it again and be more specific with your question. Or perhaps give an example of one of the instances in science where there isn't consensus and we can discuss it.
Maybe he doesn't understand it?

Maybe he assumed it didn't support his position, so didn't actually read it well enough to understand what it was saying?



Best way to find out:

Duke, was it that you didn't understand it, or, that that you didn't really look at it, because you assumed it was something that you didn't want to see, or whatever other explanation you have?

The question is asked because it answered the question very very well...and, you acted like it didn't...referring only to its being a png, which would be all you'd know if you didn't read it.

So, you either read it, and didn't understand that it did answer your question, or, you didn't read it.

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Old 10-09-2015, 03:39 AM #5946
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
I thought I'd take a moment to tell about some concerns of mine and reason I am anti-religion

A lot I get asked why I care what others believe. why am I not content to let them believe what they want to. it's because what we believe affects how we behave. I am concerned that many christians and other religions as well believe in an appocalyptic end to the world. I am concerned that such people would be less inclined to preserve the earth, because they believe it'll be destroyed and they'll go to heaven. I don't like the idea of world leaders who have their finger on "the button" who also believe in a final armageddon. my least favorite kind of prophesy is the self fulfilling kind. I believe religion holds people back from their full potential, and I think I could demonstrate numerous times it deliberately obstructs progress.

I've naturally heard pascal's wager arguement, which is essentially that it is better to believe in god "just in case". you have nothing to lose if you're wrong, you'll be dead anyway, but everything to lose if you're right and go to hell. problems with that arguement aside, I posit that maybe its better for you believers to believe that no god exists and no messiah is coming to save us from ourselves, "just in case". that way, we can preserve the only world we have, "just in case" it is in fact the only one we will ever get. it'd be a shame to destroy it, perhaps deliberaetly, in an attempt to force god to act to save it or take us to heaven, if there is no god. if I am wrong, at least the only person's well being I risk is my own. if you (the world's religions that believe the world will end) are collectively wrong and follow this violent pageant to it's end, you risk not only your own well being, but also that of everyone else

that said if you are a believer and still make every effort to preserve the planet, kudos. I believe there are passages in the bible about being good stewards of the earth, pay attention to those please. I still think if you believed the earth was the only home we will have you would have greater motive to protect it, but i'll take what I can get
Your views on this seem very twisted and misplaced at least from my point of view. It's not Christians, Jews, Buddhists who want to destroy the world, the Muslims worry me a little, the Hindus are just I don't know I guess "strange" is the best word I have to describe them, but I don't have anything against them.

Many would say that you are doing the work of Satan, that is assuming Satan exists. The reason for the apocalyptic prophecies are that Satan and his followers are at war with God, Satan will harm God any way he can, such as by destroying what God loves, his creations. The apocalyptic prophecies don't predict the end of the world or end of civilization or the human race, but they do predict things get really bad before they get better, I only have a few years left at most so hopefully it will happen after I am gone, but like you I worry sometimes that I live in interesting times. Let's compare it to WWII, Hitler could have won if he was less greedy and wasn't determined to take the whole world in his lifetime. The same could be said of some other previous empires. Fortunately it didn't work out that way and he made mistakes, but he reached a peak before his forces and industrial capability were over extended, tens of millions died but it turned around and he was defeated. Something similar is what is predicted to happen again, not the end of the world, and humans alone can't bring it on, it requires a great leader with a mouth speaking great things (the antichrist), at about that time you can also expect a one world government or at least a good attempt at one, and also an attemp at a one world religion. I really don't see those things happening soon.

I will be announcing my candidacy for U.S. Congressional district #2 in Wasington state in 2018.
just kidding, no need to worry.

Alan
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:42 AM #5947
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

"Destroy the World", in the context used, was really more about taking care of the planet, as from an environmental perspective, not from a terrorist perspective.

So, things like conservation vs pollution, not wasting natural resources, not ignoring global climate change, etc.

IE: The stewardship that the Pope was recently advocating that the world adopt, and stop pretending that we are not changing the climate.

And

I'd vote for you. At least you're unlikely to vote to ban lasers, etc.


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Old 10-09-2015, 03:46 AM #5948
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
"Destroy the World", in the context used, was really more about taking care of the planet, as from an environmental perspective, not from a terrorist perspective.

So, things like conservation vs pollution, not wasting natural resources, not ignoring global climate change, etc.

IE: The stewardship that the Pope was recently advocating that the world adopt, and stop pretending that we are not changing the climate.

And

I'd vote for you. At least you're unlikely to vote to ban lasers, etc.


Finally you are making some sense, and you did so with such a short reply.

Alan
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:48 AM #5949
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Finally you are making some sense, and you did so with such a short reply.

Alan
LOL

You truncated the part where I also said I'd vote for you...

Are you implying THAT part didn't make sense?

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Old 10-09-2015, 03:52 AM #5950
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
LOL

You truncated the part where I also said I'd vote for you...

Are you implying THAT part didn't make sense?

I fixed it, it wasn't there when I first quoted your post.

Alan
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Old 10-09-2015, 04:08 AM #5951
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Your views on this seem very twisted and misplaced at least from my point of view. It's not Christians, Jews, Buddhists who want to destroy the world, the Muslims worry me a little, the Hindus are just I don't know I guess "strange" is the best word I have to describe them, but I don't have anything against them.

Many would say that you are doing the work of Satan that is Satan exists.....
you misunderstood then. I'm not saying believers want the world destroyed, but that they view it's destruction as inevitable, seeing as it's prophesied and all. as such they have less motive to try to prevent what they see as inevitable, and perhaps even god's will. why not use up all our oil reserves if jesus is coming to save us?, for example. i do however think there may be some extreme cases of religious people with nuclear capacity who contemplate forcing god's hand. after all, there cant be a rapture of the remaining believers if the whole world is wiped out. much as Id love to see prophesy proven wrong, I dont want it proved wrong in this way. In general islam troubles me more than christianity, but the two are more similar than dissimilar. I am most grateful I do not live in a muslim country, I would not have a head. I'm sure that would please some christians too. present company excepted naturally.

the other day I saw a sticker on the side of a semi truck depicting a U.S. soldier with an m16 kneeling to a cross. the caption read "talkin' to the boss"

it made me wonder if there are similar stickers in muslim countries, just trade the m16 for an ak47, the helmet for a turban, and the cross for a crescent moon and a star, the caption would remain, just in arabic

can you see why i am concerned? do some people believe god can give soldiers direct orders? obviously. if it is the same god, why would each get different orders, most baffelingly, to kill eachother?

and yes, many would say I am doing satan's work. did you watch the video I posted in 5937? it mentitoned just that, if I am at all persuasive, it is only the silver tongue of satan trying to confuse you with the facts. this is what my mother believes. it's very sad because the more thought out and logical I make my arguements the more convinced she becomes that satan is working through me. this only strengthens her resolve to resist thinking about what I say, drowning it out in the white noise of her bible demon-resisting happy place. or whatever

as a side note, I thought it was funny when the supreme court legalized gay marriage. I am in general uninterested in the issue but I though it was funny that some christians were saying the country has gone down the tubes morally and would move to mexico or canada. ironically gay marriage in both of those places has been legal for even longer than here, though not by much, in mexico's case I believe. my suggestion is to move to a musilm country. you have so much in common, and they have some things I bet some of you christians might enjoy, such as: religion taught in schools, evloution disavowed. oops, it's a little different from your religion though. still, it's a beter fit than the moral degredation that is american schools, right? death penalty for apostates and gays. blashpemers, etc.

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Old 10-09-2015, 05:14 AM #5952
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
you misunderstood then. I'm not saying believers want the world destroyed, but that they view it's destruction as inevitable, seeing as it's prophesied and all. as such they have less motive to try to prevent what they see as inevitable, and perhaps even god's will. why not use up all our oil reserves if jesus is coming to save us?, for example. i do however think there may be some extreme cases of religious people with nuclear capacity who contemplate forcing god's hand. after all, there cant be a rapture of the remaining believers if the whole world is wiped out. much as Id love to see prophesy proven wrong, I dont want it proved wrong in this way. In general islam troubles me more than christianity, but the two are more similar than dissimilar. I am most grateful I do not live in a muslim country, I would not have a head. I'm sure that would please some christians too. present company excepted naturally.

the other day I saw a sticker on the side of a semi truck depicting a U.S. soldier with an m16 kneeling to a cross. the caption read "talkin' to the boss"

it made me wonder if there are similar stickers in muslim countries, just trade the m16 for an ak47, the helmet for a turban, and the cross for a crescent moon and a star, the caption would remain, just in arabic

can you see why i am concerned? do some people believe god can give soldiers direct orders? obviously. if it is the same god, why would each get different orders, most baffelingly, to kill eachother?

and yes, many would say I am doing satan's work. did you watch the video I posted? it mentitoned just that, if I am at all persuasive, it is only the silver tongue of satan trying to confuse you with the facts. this is what my mother believes. it's very sad because the more thought out and logical I make my arguements the more convinced she becomes that satan is working through me. this only strengthens her resolve to resist thinking about what I say, drowning it out in the white noise of her bible demon-resisting happy place. or whatever

as a side note, I thought it was funny when the supreme court legalized gay marriage. I am in general uninterested in the issue but I though it was funny that some christians were saying the country has gone down the tubes morally and would move to mexico or canada. ironically gay marriage in both of those places has been legal for even longer than here, though not by much, in mexico's case I believe. my suggestion is to move to a musilm country. you have so much in common, and they have some things I bet some of you christians might enjoy, such as: religion taught in schools, evloution disavowed. oops, it's a little different from your religion though. still, it's a beter fit than the moral degredation that is american schools, right? death penalty for apostates and gays. blashpemers, etc.
I understand now what you are saying, it does seem like it would be a valid concern for a nonbeliever.

The rapture is also a false teaching and will only result in Christians following the antichrist thinking he is here to rapture them away before the tribulation period begins, when it is the antichrist and the tribulation period that comes first before the return of Jesus. This is worrisome to many Christians, and also very controversial.

As for soldiers in Muslim countries, do you not watch the news or at least videos on YouTube? It looks like at least half of them shout "Allahu Akbar" when they fire their weapons ("God is greater" or "God is [the] greatest"), Muslims are also always saying to each other "if it is the will of Allah it will happen".

There will always be some people on the wrong side or maybe I should say on both sides that will believe that God is on their side.

It is easy to start a war with Muslims but it won't end easily, if you ask them when the war will end they will say it will end when it is the will of Allah that it end, if you ask them how they will know when it is the will of Allah that the war end, they will answer: when the war ends. I myself believe there is never a wrong time for diplomacy and negotiations and I am constantly disturbed by what our warmongering leaders are doing, but I don't think it's due to their religious beliefs.

As far as doing the work of Satan goes, there are two kinds of people, some do it without even knowing it, and others choose to do it willingly. There is an analogy to this in prophecy, those who have the mark of the beast in there right hand (those who do his work) and those with the mark in their forehead (those who willingly choose to follow him).

Am not saying this applies to you, am sorry your mother thinks this, I see you are trying to look at things logically from without a belief system, but people with different beliefs can't easily comprehend each other's thinking.

Alan
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