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Old 10-07-2015, 07:33 PM #5921
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have a proposal for you Teej, I don't want this arguing to go on forever, and to date every criticism you've proposed that I've researched I've found to be false or I found more than adequate explanations and I have no doubt I will continue too. But Christians are far from perfect and as you have pointed out in some religious sects paganism has worked it's way in.

My proposal for you, please present the top 3 reasons to not believe in Jesus. The core of my beliefs are linked below -
Our Beliefs
Please present between 1-3 sources for each reason, preferably online resources.

I would like this to be the end of the discussion between me and you.


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Old 10-07-2015, 07:49 PM #5922
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I have a proposal for you Teej, I don't want this arguing to go on forever, and to date every criticism you've proposed that I've researched I've found to be false or I found more than adequate explanations and I have no doubt I will continue too. But Christians are far from perfect and as you have pointed out in some religious sects paganism has worked it's way in.

My proposal for you, please present the top 3 reasons to not believe in Jesus. The core of my beliefs are linked below -
Our Beliefs
Please present between 1-3 sources for each reason, preferably online resources.

I would like this to be the end of the discussion between me and you.

Could you define "Not Believe in Jesus"?

I ask, because as I've mentioned many times, its not like there's zero evidence of EXISTENCE, its just the evidence of his being the son of god that's problematic.

Assuming you mean as the son of god, I'll answer that way:

1) I don't believe there is a god.

2) If there is no god, he can't have a son.

3) If claimed to be god's son, Jesus would not exist.


You want google citations for what I BELIEVE?

LOL

I never asked anyone for citations about beliefs, only statements that could be verified....such as when or who said what, if the earth went around the sun, etc.


OK, here's a few:

1) Jesus is claimed to be the son of god by the Catholic Church.

2) The Catholic Church Claims that we must believe that because they are infallible and cannot be wrong, because they are god's representative's here on earth.

3) The Catholic Church has been wrong many many many times...and, also says that they can be wrong....depending on the context.

4) The word of god the catholic church claims is unadulterated except for translation, was obviously adulterated, extensively.



Citations:

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

2) Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

3) Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

4) See all the evidence and links in the posts above


Is that what you needed to not respond, as not having to respond what what you needed an excuse for?




Again, seriously, I think you're a good guy and all, and I don't tell any one they don't believe something. No one NEEDS, really, to justify what they believe, UNLESS they want to convince some one ELSE of it.

If they DO that though, its best if they don't get angry and upset if the other person finds their evidence less compelling than they do.


If you think the world is ~ 6k years old, and my evidence doesn't convince you otherwise, I don't get angry...and, if no matter what, you don't think the world is any older, fine...I'll believe its older, you'll believe it younger, and BOTH OF US will assume the other guy just doesn't get it.


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Old 10-07-2015, 07:56 PM #5923
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That's why I linked my core beliefs. The top 3 that undermine those. Should have been obvious.
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Old 10-07-2015, 08:00 PM #5924
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
That's why I linked my core beliefs. The top 3 that undermine those. Should have been obvious.
You asked what I believe though, not what you believe.


Look, you KNOW that you don't believe what you believe because of citations, and that other citations will not change your beliefs.

You believe what you believe as a result of your own life experiences, and your interpretation of all that you experienced.


I also believe what I believe as a result of my own life experiences, and my interpretation of all that I experienced.


I don't know WHAT your experiences were, and you don't know mine, and, I think its simply a case of two people coming to different conclusions based on the evidence they had.


You can be just as sure of your conclusions as I am of mine. It doesn't make one of us right, or wrong.


If you're right, then I am wrong, and, visa versa on this one....as far as Jesus goes.

You could be wrong about jesus, but right about god, but he only saves Muslims or people who accost people in airports or whatever...so you were wrong about which set of beliefs.

I could be wrong about ALL of it, as I went ALL IN. So, no matter WHAT religion is right....I'd be WRONG.


So if there are say ~ 1,000 religions after all the sub-sets, etc...I have a zero percent shot IF believing in them is required by the deity in question...and a pretty good shot if believing is not required.

If believing is required, you'd have a 1/1000 chance of being OK, as you went all in on one religion. If believing is NOT required, you and I are probably on even footing, as you seem nice.


So, I'm comfortable with my choice, and you are with yours.


If you don't want to discuss your beliefs with me, I never said you had to.

If you make a statement, and there are verifiable aspects to it, its fair to discuss the aspects.


So if we (Royal we, not anyone in particular) are discussing whether they found Jesus's HOUSE, and there's a link from 2008 or whatever saying they did, but, later, it was found to have been a mistake, one that would make the finder's a lot of money if NOT exposed as wrong...its ALSO fair to point out the link was a hoax, even if considered valid when originally published, etc.

And so forth.

In contrast, if you say "These are my core beliefs"....you don't need to cite sources, a belief is a belief....and you're not saying anything about them except that they are what you believe.

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Old 10-07-2015, 11:35 PM #5925
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Jesus demonstrated God exists.
And Muhammad demonstrated Allah exists. Muhammad was a well documented individual - undeniably much more so than jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Your alternative is to hold true to what you do not know.
Special pleading.

You don't know leprechauns and fairies don't exist, yet you live your life under the assumption they don't.

You don't know Allah exists, yet you live your life under the assumption he doesn't. Does this mean you also "hold true to what you do not know"?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
That's not at all how the information in that article is presented.
Tell me Mr. Duke, Do you believe in god because of divine revelation, or do you believe in god because Bill Craig's arguments convinced you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
some part of us survives
You talk about the spirit a lot, but I've yet to see much besides NDEs, which can be explained as a purely physical process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
What would you require to consider the gospels true.
Good question!

Historical and scientific consensus would be a good starting point. Divine revelation seems to convince a lot of people - maybe that. Your god undoubtedly knows what would convince me. Ask him what you should tell me during your next prayer session.
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:24 AM #5926
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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What if it is true regardless of the seeming inconsistencies, innocents being born with problems and all of that? I think we need to accept we live in a reality where anything can happen to anyone for no reason at all other than chance and that we don't always remember or transfer into our brains what we are aware of when removed from the body. Who says everything need be just or right in this universe, much less physical reality? I don't think so, the conscious collective can exist regardless of what goes wrong, I think.
As stated earlier by Alaskan I believe that most of the universe most of the time functions in a random way, but does it always? I am going to take a wild guess and say maybe a very advanced being that we call God designed and built something like the Genesis device from Star Trek II, only much larger and more advanced and programmed it with fractal geometry and blew that thing creating the universe the way it turned out. Just a guess of course but it had to have happened somehow.



Now back to the randomness of events, I don't believe they are always random, just most of the time. Have you ever heard of the Princeton Eggs?
The Global Consciousness Project
It is an experiment that has been running for more than 15 years now. I have heard 4 or 5 lengthy radio shows over the years with those running the project. Unfortunately it is run by psychologists and is considered a psychological experiment, I think they are missing something right in font if them. The project should be of more interest to physisists than to psychologists. These EGGS are random number generators in 70 locations around the world, the numbers generated at all locations are fed back to one place and recorded. Prior to some major events the numbers cease to be random. They think this is due to some kind of collective conscience effect from us humans around the world. In my opinion it is more likely an indication that events here sometimes become non random, again though I can only guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post

I would still like someone to answer the question as to whether god has ever been immoral.

Has he?


(Old or new testament examples, or oyur personal experiences with god, if applicable, are fine, just whether GOD has ever been immoral though)
You are only going to get an athiest to answer that one, you should know that. Assuming there is a God, and he created the universe, or even if he just created our solar system and created life, then he is so far beyond us that we wouldn't be able to understand much about him, so who are we to judge him? It's like comparing a human to bacteria, the bacteria can't understand my thinking. If I created that bacteria and cultured it I would love it and take care of it, however if it was good for making cheese or yogurt I might also eat it.

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Old 10-08-2015, 02:54 AM #5927
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 10-08-2015, 03:11 AM #5928
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

an inconsistency I discovered myself:

Matthew 5:17 says jesus came to fulfill, not abolish the law. two verses later he states that those who do not follow the laws will be called least in heaven. this also implies heaven has hierarchy, so much for the paradise idea. anyway, jesus himself will be called least in heaven, because rather than stoning the adultress, he proposes that the person lacking sin should cast the first stone, a clear violation of the law. he also commands his followers to break the commandment: honor thy father and thy mother in matthew 10:35. in fact many times he downplays the import of families in favor of following him, but its hardly suprising that the son of the tyrant yahweh would demand anything less than complete obediance and dedication


im sure it's just a translation problem though. or me lacking spirit to properly understand the bible. that's what my mother tells me. I dont understand it because I lack spirit. how do I obtain spirit? by believing the bible naturally. see where the problem is? this begs the question, if one already accepts the bible and has spirit, what is the point of reading it, and how could it ever be used to convince non-believers? quite the conundrum

ah, his latest, today in fact. superb and articulate as ever

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Old 10-08-2015, 04:49 AM #5929
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm a little out of step in the discussion posting this, but I just found this NDE report and find it very interesting, seems to be legit to me, as more than just a dying brain going whacky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee3UTF4pOlE

Edit: I had to come back to this post and add more, after all of my statements regarding my dislike of religion, it appears for this individual that is what he needed. From the best I can gather from all of my years of seeking for answers, we don't die, we can't die, because consciousness is not produced by the brain, never has been, the brain only acted upon by consciousness as a kind of co-processor interface for our individual life force to act through producing thoughts. The only explanation I have for what happened to the man in this youtube video is that he is part of a Jewish soul group and came back into physical embodiment on a mission he wasn't fulfilling, thus the experience he went through. I still believe religion is completely unnecessary for many of us, but for some, is their path and perfect for them. I realize the lack of belief in any one religion, or all of them together as the ultimate truth might have one thinking such an individual certainly can't believe in what is called "God", but I am someone who feels that way about religion, that such is not needed, yet I think there is that thing called God in us and all around us, just that I think of God (forgive me religious individuals) in a less limited way and don't even like using that word to describe it due to all of the religious connotations. Still, when I view videos like this I can see some individuals can progress and have a wonderful life through religious belief and ritual.

I realize the above is a strong biased opinion, of course, I am sure I could learn much from many aspects of religious teachings, I'm just talking about the big picture here. I don't think religions have the big picture, they just have small slices of perception they call reality. While I say this, I fully well know I am not above the same limitations as an individual, just that I realize and admit that, in general, religious organizations cannot admit such to maintain the strength of their position or dogmas, this is their weakness to reality and strength to those who follow them.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

Last edited by Alaskan; 10-08-2015 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 10-08-2015, 03:38 PM #5930
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
As stated earlier by Alaskan I believe that most of the universe most of the time functions in a random way, but does it always? I am going to take a wild guess and say maybe a very advanced being that we call God designed and built something like the Genesis device from Star Trek II, only much larger and more advanced and programmed it with fractal geometry and blew that thing creating the universe the way it turned out. Just a guess of course but it had to have happened somehow.



Now back to the randomness of events, I don't believe they are always random, just most of the time. Have you ever heard of the Princeton Eggs?
The Global Consciousness Project
It is an experiment that has been running for more than 15 years now. I have heard 4 or 5 lengthy radio shows over the years with those running the project. Unfortunately it is run by psychologists and is considered a psychological experiment, I think they are missing something right in font if them. The project should be of more interest to physisists than to psychologists. These EGGS are random number generators in 70 locations around the world, the numbers generated at all locations are fed back to one place and recorded. Prior to some major events the numbers cease to be random. They think this is due to some kind of collective conscience effect from us humans around the world. In my opinion it is more likely an indication that events here sometimes become non random, again though I can only guess.



You are only going to get an athiest to answer that one, you should know that. Assuming there is a God, and he created the universe, or even if he just created our solar system and created life, then he is so far beyond us that we wouldn't be able to understand much about him, so who are we to judge him? It's like comparing a human to bacteria, the bacteria can't understand my thinking. If I created that bacteria and cultured it I would love it and take care of it, however if it was good for making cheese or yogurt I might also eat it.

Alan
LOL - I like it.



OK, so what you are saying is the god's morality is subjective, and not objective.

If it were objective, we would know if he were immoral.

If its subjective, we'd have to say we can't tell if he were or not.

In your opinion, morality is therefore subjective if its from god.


How about people, can a person be moral, objectively, or only subjectively?
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Old 10-08-2015, 06:35 PM #5931
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Alaskan,

I appreciate the effort you put into trying to understand your feelings about the universe.

You are making an honest attempt to make sense of what, frankly, can be very hard to make sense of.

You do seem to lean quite a bit towards some concepts that are a bit shaky, foundation-wise, in your attempt to fill in gaps, which we all do to an extent.

People who are more religious, tend to more easily fill in gaps with supernatural explanations.

People who are more scientific, tend to accept scientific explanations more easily for the exact same reason.

Neither group is immune from this confirmation bias.


What they would need in common, to help avoid confirmation bias errors, is to simply force themselves to look at ALL incoming information/news more critically.

If I see a scientific study that claims time is able to be warped....and I KNOW time is merely what we call the chronological period between things, and that it can't be "warped" because it's a concept, and not a real thing...

... I can just reject it as not making sense or being pseudoscience, etc.

As long as I never check for more evidence, I can maintain that belief that time can't be warped.

If I hear that they did an experiment with clocks in jets going around the earth, and the times were different when they got back, I could chalk it up to them doing the experiment wrong, surely the clocks were simply off from being in a jet plane, etc.

As long as I never allow the evidence to be acceptable, I never have to change my mind.

If I DO allow new evidence in, and DO allow myself to consider its potential validity, I might see how GPS satellites, etc, have to take this warping into account....to WORK, and other solid proof of concept.

THEN I have to wrestle with the inevitable "But that makes no sense to me, yet, the evidence says I'm wrong...WHY can't I understand how the effin ell time can be WARPED?"

So, I let go of denial of the concept, and, move on to simply accepting that the evidence says time can be warped, AND that I just don't understand how.


Over time, once my mind can accept that I want to know how it can be warped, I can research it further, and come to understand it better over time.


Other things can pop up as well, such as global consciousness, etc.

That would be exciting. People are explaining how it works, etc. I listen, read, and the science is weak. The studies, while touted as conclusive, have massive holes in methodology. The sources are biased. Words or phrases that have one meaning in one context, are used as if they are interchangeable in another, when they are not.

And so forth.

The evidence of validity I get from say time warpage, is missing from global consciousness.

So, I can say, I am unconvinced (The honest truth), or that it's not possible.

It's POSSIBLE that the people most vested in proving something, and, allegedly, the most expert in that field, are poor scientists, and can't prove something provable....but say they did.

It's MORE possible that the most vested people have the most vested bias in promoting their agenda, and, that if the most expert people can't prove something, or even make a logical argument for it, that it is not a valid concept.

What keeps these guys in business (It IS a business), is that everyone has a different threshold for acceptance of evidence.

THere are posts in this very thread from religious people who posted youtube videos to prove (PROVE) satan was real.

Their PROOF was that the video's showed magic tricks that could only be performed if the magician had satan's help...because they were simply impossible without supernatural aid.

Other's posted things like graphs of worldwide violence vs sessions of mediation to stop violence, and didn't realize that the graphs were meaningless, statistically, because they wanted to believe the results.


So, it's a bit like a court case, in that for some topics, it's true unless proven false...and, others, it's false until proven true. ALL humans do that....we are hard wired that way.


If we already believe something, counter evidence is false, until proven true.

If we believe the opposite, counter evidence is true, until proven false.


If something is a CORE BELIEF, say implanted in early childhood, part of a group system, etc, we may be so heavily vested in defense of it, that the "preponderance of evidence" required to change our minds can be staggering.


On the flip side, the evidence supporting an already core belief system is accepted w/o question as it triggers no warning filters at all.


People who are adept at logic, and not TOO vested in a belief system, CAN at least evaluate a concept that is in conflict with that belief system.

Unfortunately, MOST people seem to think, statistically, that they are better at that than they are. This is also why a poll of drivers will find that most people feel that they are a better than average driver, and so forth.

Its human nature.

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Old 10-08-2015, 07:48 PM #5932
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You do seem to lean quite a bit towards some concepts that are a bit shaky, foundation-wise, in your attempt to fill in gaps, which we all do to an extent.
Perhaps the gaps I am filling in might seem very subjective to someone who hasn't directly experienced and seen these realities for themselves in the first person? I have. I suppose for many, that is a direct qualification into the lunatic category, if you doubt my veracity, or that it really happened, so be your judgment, religions teach no one can see God and survive the experience, or is consumed into the oneness by such, others claim Satan can fool us as being God, or the light, another easy reason to discount such experiences, of course. I had my own seeing the light experience in 1996, prior to I had much less tolerance for religion and the concept of God was complete bunk to me, to put it nicely.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.

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Old 10-08-2015, 08:05 PM #5933
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
Perhaps the gaps I am filling in might seem very subjective to someone who hasn't directly experienced and seen these realities for themselves in the first person? I have. I suppose for many, that is a direct qualification into the lunatic category, if you doubt my veracity, or that it really happened, so be your judgment, religions teach no one can see God and survive the experience, or is consumed into the oneness by such, others claim Satan can fool us as being God, or the light, another easy reason to discount such experiences, of course. I had my own seeing the light experience in 1996, prior to I had much less tolerance for religion and the concept of God was complete bunk to me, to put it nicely.

I hear you about your experiences being different from mine, as your explanation for why we see these things differently.

Its akin to me having a dream in which I realize that the earth is a living being, with its own consciousness....and I share that with you.

And you hear me, and believe its really rocks and so forth, not a living being...and I say that if you'd had the same dream, you'd feel as I do.

And you'd of course, agree, and decide my dream was true based upon it being true for me...or not.

It would, again, depend upon your evidence requirements.


So, if I show you a graph and say it supports my dream, and you look at it, and realize it could have just as easily proved that eating peanut butter produced the results, you will wonder if that's the supporting evidence, why is it invalid?

And, then, I'd insist that even though the evidence is not valid, or that I at least consider it valid, the dream is still valid nonetheless.

And so forth.

If I produced a graph or other evidence where the axis would not be interchangeable, or with a justification for the data points and their relationship, such that conclusions might be able to be drawn from it, you might take my view point more seriously than if I simply insisted I'm right, and that YOU just don't get it because you need special spiritual intuition to understand this sort of thing...the kind that I have.

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Old 10-08-2015, 08:39 PM #5934
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
And Muhammad demonstrated Allah exists. Muhammad was a well documented individual - undeniably much more so than jesus.
How did Muhammad demonstrate Allah existed?


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Special pleading.

You don't know leprechauns and fairies don't exist, yet you live your life under the assumption they don't.
The gospels are not analogous to folk tales or contemporary "urban legends." Tales like those rarely concern actual historical individuals and are not analogous to the gospel narratives.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Historical and scientific consensus would be a good starting point. Divine revelation seems to convince a lot of people - maybe that.
Historical evidence is divine revelation. Also you'll find different opinions on historical and scientific consensus. How is that decided?
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
who are we to judge [god]?
It might make more sense to say 'evaluate god,' or 'ponder god's choices.' He supposedly gave us a big comprehensive book outlining his morality, so why is it unreasonable to evaluate him based on the book he gave us about himself? If we are incapable of understanding the book, why was it written? If he doesn't want us to know how/why he works, why do so many Christians claim he wants a personal relationship with us?

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
consciousness is not produced by the brain, never has been, the brain only acted upon by consciousness as a kind of co-processor interface for our individual life force to act through producing thoughts.
So you believe neurons are acted upon by the spiritual world. Any evidence? Again, spooky stories don't count as evidence in science.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
How did Muhammad demonstrate Allah existed?
Weird how when it comes to a laser, people shop around a lot to get the best specs for the best price, but when it comes to your everlasting soul, people just go with whatever their parents believe and dig their heels in.

Speak to any Muslim. Ask Google. Read the Quran. Have a genuine look at the rest of the world's religions. SHOP AROUND

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The gospels are not analogous to folk tales or contemporary "urban legends." Tales like those rarely concern actual historical individuals and are not analogous to the gospel narratives.
And what of those that do have actual historical individuals?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Historical evidence is divine revelation.
Divine revelation is where god reveals himself to you... direct communication. Did god never reveal himself to you? Visually? Audibly? He has to many Christians. Why were you left out?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Also you'll find different opinions on historical and scientific consensus. How is that decided?
Posted several pages back: http://i.imgur.com/K97Fk.png
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Old 10-08-2015, 09:53 PM #5936
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

For the most part, the quran is about as well, or better, supported than say the old or new testament.

Jesus and Muhammad had different degrees of historical documentation, with Muhammad's existence being far less sketchy.

People know who his relatives are, just kill each other over WHICH of his relatives was the true heir to the belief system.

The Church itself had to vote on who Jesus's relatives WERE, and even who his parent's were, brothers, sisters, etc....hundreds of years AFTER he was no longer around.



Different branches broke off over some of the disputed points, etc.

As to being historical or not, Muhammad was far more historical...jesus, less so.

Muhammed's time period was also more recent, so it was also easier to trace back the roots, etc.


So, keep in mind that being able to show someone existed is a start...but, existence does not equal son of god, prophet, oracle, or even good shortstop....just existence.


So, maybe Muhammad existed, but, maybe he was not who he is now considered to be.

Its an easier case to say he was who is claimed than for Jesus though, but that doesn't make either who they say they are....or, more accurately, who others say they were.


Statement: Historical Evidence is Divine Revelation?

So, if we see historical evidence of the colosseum in Rome, that is divine revelation?

We have yet to SEE historical evidence of god's existence....unless you take whatever you don't know, and say, must be because of god, etc.

There's evidence of things that used to exist, like dinosaurs, ancient forms of life that died out, isotopes and magnetic orientations, deposit layers, tree rings, etc, which are evidence of the past.

If a story takes place in a setting, say, in the middle east, and, there's still a middle east..it doesn't mean the story was true...just that the setting existed.


If the bible DIDN'T contain questionable details, such as references to bronze age levels of knowledge, and no further, and to defeats, that made claims of omnipotence/omniscience, in turn, questionable....there would be at least fewer people questioning it.

If the bible was not supplied by an organization that, especially then, operated more like the mafia than like a pious society, and which had a propaganda branch (CALLED propaganda, BY the church), and which lied, said they were god's representative on earth, yet, despite divine inspiration, didn't know how the world worked or natural laws...perhaps taking their word for "THE WORD" would be less ludicrous.

EVERY WORD of the New Testament came to you from the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

EVERY WORD from Jesus on the topic was to adhere to the OLD TESTAMENT....not to change a whit.

The CHURCH is who said, "that's not what he meant"....and changed Jesus from rabbi to christian....if you believe them. (The Church)

If you're catholic, OK, you DO believe the Church, and forgive the lies and mistakes, and ignore the obvious conflicts between reality and facts.

If you are NOT catholic though, it's even MORE questionable as to why you'd take another religion's WORD for THE WORD.

Even if a bible is written over for a Protestant, etc, audience, the words they CHANGED are still originally from the CHURCH...the entire New Testament.

And, actually, they rewrote the OLD Testament too, so it would fit better with their new version.

COMPARE an old Old Testament, PRE-BC era, to the New Testament's telling of it.

It's not the same.




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