Old 10-07-2015, 12:23 PM #5905
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It is mostly believed by Christians that they died out in the flood some 5000 or so years ago....
great, there should be fossils aplenty then.

I doubt the stars part I reffered to was talking about what you claim very much, but it is convenient that whenever it doesnt make sense its a mistranslation. why would god allow these? allah doesnt, or at least, muslims believe the koran is divinely protected from alteration by man.


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Old 10-07-2015, 12:56 PM #5906
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
The entire rev section reads like an allegory, given the numbers of things, horns, heads, etc. Many scholars feel the numbers and described characters represented specific rulers and kingdoms, etc.

It has a dream-like quality to it...and, not surprisingly, leads to interpretations that would be analogous to telling what a dream might mean.

I think 1/3 stars in heaven are not 1/3 people, I think it's just also 1/3 people as well as referencing 1/3 of the stars...as 3 was a numerically important number, as were 7, 12, etc...based upon early numerology.

The fact is, back then, they DID think the stars were small, and close. When a "Falling star" was found on the ground, it WAS small, and, as they assumed the fallen star was actually a star, not knowing about meteorites, etc, so, there was evidence that supported their ancient misconception (It was not crazy at least to have made that mistake)

A god who made them all should have known what a meteorite was, etc, but, not a bronze age guy...he had not the tools yet, as science had not filled in the missing gaps in knowledge, DESPITE the entire apple eating imbroglio.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
great, there should be fossils aplenty then.

I doubt the stars part I reffered to was talking about what you claim very much, but it is convenient that whenever it doesnt make sense its a mistranslation. why would god allow these? allah doesnt, or at least, muslims believe the koran is divinely protected from alteration by man.

That's because they read it in the language of the prophet (Arabic), if Christians could read the original texts in ancient Hebrew and Greek or if they could at least learn to use a Strong's concordance and spend enough time studying then they would have a very different point of view on some things.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God, yet all three are very different, all three are also divided among themselves. Maybe you didn't understand about the war in heaven, the war started long ago but hasn't ended yet. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will continue to be more and more divided, it is part of the ongoing war, that is why I am nondenominational, denominations only exist to divide people.

I know some Christians will disagree with this but many don't, please give it some thought.

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Old 10-07-2015, 01:22 PM #5907
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post








That's because they read it in the language of the prophet (Arabic), if Christians could read the original texts in ancient Hebrew and Greek or if they could at least learn to use a Strong's concordance and spend enough time studying then they would have a very different point of view on some things.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God, yet all three are very different, all three are also divided among themselves. Maybe you didn't understand about the war in heaven, the war started long ago but hasn't ended yet. Christians, Jews, and Muslims will continue to be more and more divided, it is part of the ongoing war, that is why I am nondenominational, denominations only exist to divide people.

I know some Christians will disagree with this but many don't, please give it some thought.

Alan

I think you're right about the language differences. That definitely added a layer of opportunity for mistakes, and many many mistakes were entirely due to mistranslation.

When later writer's attempted to make sense of the mistranslated earlier material, it lead to a game of post office.

This is how examples of a sect name became assumed to be a place name...which in turn could end up a place name again, named after the sects there, and so forth.

The above was magnified, as Aramaic was translated into either greek or latin, and then to either greek or latin.....and the same for the hebrew versions.

So its akin to writing a BOOK, and pasting it in an online translator, then copying the result, and pasting that result into the translator to get it in another language, a few times...and seeing what you ended up with.

In efforts to have the passages read better, make their points better, be more inspiring/meet the demands of those in power...writers ALSO edited the passages themselves.

So, an earlier version of a text might have an empty cave/tomb...a little later version, just a man there, and later versions with more and more people, thunder and shining raiments, etc...as each successive writer embellished the starting material.

Some mistranslations were purposeful, and lead to entire dogma. The hebrew for virgin, and for young woman, are not even close to the same...but, the original hebrew PROPHECY was for it to be a young woman...with her hymen left unmentioned.

The earliest scriptures in the new testament also said young woman. When earlier mythology the early christians were in competition with had virgin birth components, they had to change her to a virgin to meet the new criteria, and simply changed the word for young woman, to virgin.

This was actually voted on, and the records indicate that many church officials strongly objected to a virgin birth as a ludicrous throwback to ancient myths...but they were overruled.

So, she morphed into the virgin Mary, instead of just Mary.

Later votes even had her hymen REMAIN intact AFTER the birth too, and they edited out Jesus's brothers, etc, to avoid resultant complications.

So, poor Mary's hymen suffered a lot of remedial work, and or miraculous votes, depending upon your viewpoint.

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Old 10-07-2015, 01:53 PM #5908
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Well you at least got some of that right about the language and mistranslations, am not so sure about the rest of it.



I wonder if maybe one of the mods should add NSFW to the title of this thread.

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Old 10-07-2015, 02:25 PM #5909
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

The hymen part? Virgin vs young woman?

That's in Vatican records, you can read it. It's not like I found out doing translations myself, the Church is essentially the only source.

There were various councils, and they voted on many many aspects of the religion, including whether Jesus was a man, or god, or a form of god, mom's virginity, etc.

They would review documents and decide upon their relevance, validity, etc. For example, they rejected several apostles accounts as obvious forgeries, discounted or verified accounts from various sources, and so forth.

You can read these and see for yourself what was voted on, etc.

That way, you CAN be sure of the rest.


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Old 10-07-2015, 02:27 PM #5910
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
am not so sure about the rest of it.
I would suggest you ask him so cite the sources of his criticism, but from my own personal experience he will just ignore you.
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:34 PM #5911
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I would suggest you ask him so cite the sources of his criticism, but from my own personal experience he will just ignore you.
I did mention it's from the Vatican records, etc.



It's not like I keep a foot note index to refer to to cite a specific biblical scholar, etc.

I'll dig some up though as you think I'm ignoring you.



The theory of Mary’s “perpetual virginity” became official dogma at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451, and thus is binding upon both the Greek and Roman segments of the Church (Pelikan, 14.1000).



SCRIPTURE REFERENCES: Matthew 13:55-56; Acts 15:13; Galatians 2:9; Hebrews 13:4; 1 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:1; Matthew 1:18; Genesis 4:1; John 9:18; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Matthew 12:46; Colossians 4:10; Matthew 13:56; Acts 23:16; Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5-6; 1 Corinthians 7:3; 1 Thessalonians 2:4

References
Attwatter, Donald. 1961. A Catholic Dictionary. New York, NY: The Macmillan Co.
Danker, F. W., et al. 2000. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago.
Ellison, H. L. 1979. The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Geldenhuys, Norval. 1956. The Gospel of Luke. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Gibbon, Edward. n.d., The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Three Volumes. New York, NY: The Modern Library.
Gibbons, James. 1917. The Faith Of Our Fathers. Baltimore, MA: John Murphy Co.
Hislop, Alexander. 1959. The Two Babylons. New York, NY: Loizeaux Brosthers.
Jackson, Wayne. 1995. Select Studies in the Book of Revelation. Stockton, CA: Courier Publications.
Lewis, Jack. 1976. The Gospel According to Matthew. Austin, TX: Sweet.
Maas, A. J. 1912. “Virgin Mary,” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. XV. New York, NY: The Encyclopedia Press, Inc.
Pelikan, J. J. 1958. “Mary,” Encyclopedia Britannica. Chicago, IL: Britannica, Inc.
Sweet, L. M. 1939. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia,. James Orr, Ed. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Terry, Milton. 1890. Biblical Hermeneutics. New York, NY: Eaton & Mains.


The Roman Catholic Church alleges that Mary’s parents presented her in the temple when she was but three years old, and that “the child herself mounted the Temple steps, and that she made her vow of virginity on this occasion” (Maas, 464F).This would suggest that at the tender age of three, Mary had considerable knowledge of human anatomy.It further hints that she understood the intricacies of ***ual union.Moreover it indicates that she likely foreknew the fact that she would bear the Christ child, and that she perceived somehow that it would be inappropriate for her ever to engage in honorable intimacy with a legitimate husband.

This theory of Mary’s “perpetual virginity” became official dogma at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451, and thus is binding upon both the Greek and Roman segments of the Church (Pelikan, 14.1000).


A progressively deteriorating church (cf. 2 Thes. 2:1ff; 1 Tim. 4:1ff; 2 Tim. 4:1ff), therefore, was ever attempting to accommodate “Christianity” to paganism, in order to provide a “comfort zone” that would attract the heathen to the religion of Christ.This is an historical reality that not even Catholic scholars deny (see Attwater, 363).For an historical survey of this phenomenon, see Edward Gibbon’s famous work, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Chapter XXVIII).Gibbon concludes this chapter with these words:

“The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity” (II.70).



OK, there's some decent references to the sources of these studies and conclusions. (Just perpetual virginity in this case)


Some of James, etc, versions of her early life were from these papyri sources:


List of all registered New Testament papyri[edit]
The P-numbers are the standard system of Gregory-Aland.
Dates are estimated to the nearest 50 year increment.
Content is given to the nearest chapter; verses are sometimes listed. Thus, many of the papyri are small fragments, not whole chapters. For instance, \mathfrak{P}52 contains 5 verses out of the 40 verses in John chapter 18.
Manuscripts in beige rows belong to the Oxyrhynchus Papyri
Manuscripts in light cyan rows belong to the Bodmer Papyri
Manuscripts in light pink rows belong to the Chester Beatty Papyri
Name Date Content Institution Ref # City, State Country
\mathfrak{P}1 250 Matthew 1 University of Pennsylvania P. Oxy. 2; E 2746 Philadelphia
Pennsylvania United States
\mathfrak{P}2 550 John 12 National Archaeological Museum Inv. 7134 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}3 600 Luke 7,10 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 2323 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}4 175-250 Luke 1-6 National Library of France Suppl. Gr. 1120 Paris France
\mathfrak{P}5 250 John 1,16,20 British Library P. Oxy. 208. 1781; Inv. 782. 2484 London UK
\mathfrak{P}6 350 John 10,11 National and University Library Pap. copt. 379. 381. 382. 384 Strasbourg France
\mathfrak{P}7 300(?) Luke 4 Vernadsky National Library of Ukraine Petrov 553 Kiev Ukraine
\mathfrak{P}8 350 Acts 4-6 Staatliche Museen zu Berlin Inv. 8683 Berlin Germany
\mathfrak{P}9 250 1 John 4 Houghton Library, Harvard P. Oxy. 402; Inv. 3736 Cambridge
Massachusetts United States
\mathfrak{P}10 350 Romans 1 Houghton Library, Harvard P. Oxy. 209; Inv. 2218 Cambridge
Massachusetts United States
\mathfrak{P}11 550 1 Corinthians 1-7 Russian National Library Gr. 258A Saint Petersburg Russia
\mathfrak{P}12 250 Hebrews 1 Morgan Library Pap. Gr. 3; P. Amherst 3b New York City United States
\mathfrak{P}13 250 Hebrews 2-5,10-12 British Library
Laurentian Library P. Oxy. 657; Inv. 1532 v
PSI 1292 London
Florence UK
Italy
\mathfrak{P}14 450 1 Corinthians 1-3 Saint Catherine's Monastery 14 Sinai Egypt
\mathfrak{P}15 250 1 Corinthians 7-8 Egyptian Museum P. Oxy. 1008; JE 47423 Cairo Egypt
\mathfrak{P}16 300 Philippians 3-4 Egyptian Museum P. Oxy. 1009; JE 47424 Cairo Egypt
\mathfrak{P}17 350 Hebrews 9 Cambridge University Library P. Oxy. 1078; Add. 5893 Cambridge UK
\mathfrak{P}18 300 Revelation 1 † British Library P. Oxy. 1079; Inv. 2053v London UK
\mathfrak{P}19 400 Matthew 10-11 † Bodleian Library P. Oxy. 1170; Gr. bibl. d. 6 (P) Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}20 250 James 2-3 † Princeton University Library P. Oxy. 1171; AM 4117 Princeton
New Jersey United States
\mathfrak{P}21 200 Matthew 12 † Muhlenberg College P. Oxy. 1227; Theol. Pap. 3 Allentown
Pennsylvania United States
\mathfrak{P}22 250 John 15-16 † Glasgow University Library P. Oxy. 1228; MS 2-X.I Glasgow UK
\mathfrak{P}23 250 James 1 † University of Illinois P. Oxy. 1229; G. P. 1229 Urbana, Illinois United States
\mathfrak{P}24 350 Revelation 5-6 † Franklin Trask Library
Andover Newton Theological School P. Oxy. 1230; OP 1230 Newton
Massachusetts United States
\mathfrak{P}25 350 Matthew 18-19 † Staatliche Museen zu Berlin Inv. 16388 Berlin Germany
\mathfrak{P}26 600 Romans 1 † (Joseph S) Bridwell Library
Southern Methodist University P. Oxy. 1354 Dallas, Texas United States
\mathfrak{P}27 250 Romans 8-9 † Cambridge University Library P. Oxy. 1355; Add. 7211 Cambridge UK
\mathfrak{P}28 250 John 6 † Palestine Institute Museum
Pacific School of Religion P. Oxy. 1596; Pap. 2 Berkeley
California United States
\mathfrak{P}29 250 Acts 26 † Bodleian Library P. Oxy. 1597; Gr. bibl. g. 4 (P) Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}30 250 1 Ths 4-5; 2 Ths 1 Ghent University Library P. Oxy. 1598; Inv. 61 Ghent Belgium
\mathfrak{P}31 650 Romans 12 † John Rylands University Library P. Ryl. 4; Gr. P. 4 Manchester UK
\mathfrak{P}32 200 Titus 1:11-15; 2:3-8 † John Rylands University Library P. Ryl. 5; G. P. 5 Manchester UK
\mathfrak{P}33=\mathfrak{P}58 550 Acts 7 † Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 17973, 26133, 35831, 39783 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}34 650 1 Co 16; 2 Co 5,10-11 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 39784 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}35 350(?) Matthew 25 Laurentian Library PSI 1 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}36 550 John 3 Laurentian Library PSI 3 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}37 300 Matthew 26 University of Michigan P. Mich. 137; Inv. 1570 Ann Arbor
Michigan United States
\mathfrak{P}38 300 Acts 18-19 University of Michigan P. Mich. 138; Inv. 1571 Ann Arbor
Michigan United States
\mathfrak{P}39 250 John 8 Green Collection P. Oxy. 1780; Inv. 8864 Oklahoma City
Oklahoma United States
\mathfrak{P}40 250 Romans 1-4,6,9 Institute for Papyrology
University of Heidelberg P. Bad. 57; Inv. 45 Heidelberg Germany
\mathfrak{P}41 750 Acts 17-22 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. K. 7541-48 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}42 700 Luke 1-2 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. K. 8706 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}43 600 Revelation 2,15-16 British Library Inv. 2241 London UK
\mathfrak{P}44 600 Matthew 17-18,25 Metropolitan Museum of Art Inv. 14. 1. 527, 1 fol New York City United States
\mathfrak{P}45 250 Mt 20-21, 25-26; Mk 4-9,11-12;
Lk 6-7,9-14; Jn 4-5,10-11; Acts 4-17

Chester Beatty Library
Österreichische Nationalbibliothek BP I
Pap. g. 31974 Dublin
Vienna Ireland
Austria
\mathfrak{P}46 200 Ro 5-6,8-16; 1 Co; 2 Co;
Gal; Eph; Php; Col; 1 Th; Heb

Chester Beatty Library
University of Michigan BP II
Inv. 6238 Dublin
Ann Arbor, Michigan Ireland
United States
\mathfrak{P}47 250 Revelation 9-17 Chester Beatty Library BP III Dublin Ireland
\mathfrak{P}48 250 Acts 23 Laurentian Library PSI 1165 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}49 250 Ephesians 4-5 Yale University Library P. 415 New Haven
Connecticut United States
\mathfrak{P}50 300 Acts 8,10 Yale University Library P. 1543 New Haven
Connecticut United States
\mathfrak{P}51 400 Galatians 1 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 2157 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}52 125 John 18:31-33; 18:37-38 John Rylands University Library Gr. P. 457 Manchester UK
\mathfrak{P}53 250 Matthew 26; Acts 9-10 University of Michigan Inv. 6652 Ann Arbor
Michigan United States
\mathfrak{P}54 500 James 2-3 Princeton University Library P. Princ. 15; Garrett Depots 7742 Princeton
New Jersey United States
\mathfrak{P}55 600 John 1 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 26214 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}56 500 Acts 1 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 19918 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}57 400 Acts 4-5 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 26020 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}58=\mathfrak{P}33 550 Acts 15 † Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 17973, 26133, 35831, 39783 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}59 650 John 1-2,11-12,17-18,21 Morgan Library P. Colt 3 New York City United States
\mathfrak{P}60 650 John 16-19 Morgan Library P. Colt 4 New York City United States
\mathfrak{P}61 700 Ro 16; 1 Co 1,5; Php 3; Col 1,4;
1 Th 1; Tit 3; Phm

Morgan Library P. Colt 5 New York City United States
\mathfrak{P}62 350 Matthew 11 Oslo University Library Inv. 1661 Oslo Norway
\mathfrak{P}63 500 John 3-4 Staatliche Museen zu Berlin Inv. 11914 Berlin Germany
\mathfrak{P}64+67 200 Matthew 3, 5, 26 Magdalen College
Fundación Sant Lluc Evangelista Gr. 18
Inv. I Oxford
Barcelona UK
Spain
\mathfrak{P}65 250 1 Thessalonians 1-2 Girolamo Vitelli Papyrological Institute PSI 1373 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}66 200 John Bodmer library P. Bodmer II Cologny, Geneva Switzerland
\mathfrak{P}68 650(?) 1 Corinthians 4-5 Russian National Library Gr. 258B Saint Petersburg Russia
\mathfrak{P}69 250 Luke 22 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 2383 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}70 250 Matthew 2-3, 11-12, 24 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 2384 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}71 350 Matthew 19 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 2385 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}72 300 1 Peter; 2 Peter; Jude Bodmer library P. Bodmer VII, VIII Cologny, Geneva Switzerland
\mathfrak{P}73 650 Matthew 25-26 Bodmer library P. Bodmer L Cologny, Geneva Switzerland
\mathfrak{P}74 650 Acts; James; 1 Pe 1-3; 2 Pe 2-3;
1 Jo; 2 Jo; 3 Jo

Bodmer library P. Bodmer XVII Cologny, Geneva Switzerland
\mathfrak{P}75 175-225 Luke 3-18,22-24; John 1-15 Vatican Apostolic Library P. Bodmer XIV, XV Vatican City Vatican City
\mathfrak{P}76 550 John 4 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. G. 36102 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}77 200 Matthew 23 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 2683 and 4405 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}78 300 Jude Sackler Library P. Oxy. 2684 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}79 650 Hebrews 10 Staatliche Museen zu Berlin Inv. 6774 Berlin Germany
\mathfrak{P}80 250 John 3 Fundación Sant Lluc Evangelista Inv. 83 Barcelona Spain
\mathfrak{P}81 350 1 Peter 2-3 Professor Sergio Daris, University of Trieste Inv. 20 Trieste Italy
\mathfrak{P}82 400 Luke 7 National and University Library Gr. 2677 Strasbourg France
\mathfrak{P}83 550 Matthew 20, 23-24 Catholic University of Leuven Library P. A. M. Kh. Mird 16, 29 Leuven Belgium
\mathfrak{P}84 550 Mark 2,6; John 5,17 Catholic University of Leuven Library P. A. M. Kh. Mird 4, 11 Leuven Belgium
\mathfrak{P}85 400 Revelation 9-10 National and University Library Gr. 1028 Strasbourg France
\mathfrak{P}86 350 Matthew 5 Institut für Altertumskunde
University of Cologne Theol. 5516 Cologne Germany
\mathfrak{P}87 250 Philemon Institut für Altertumskunde
University of Cologne Theol. 12 Cologne Germany
\mathfrak{P}88 350 Mark 2 Catholic University of the Sacred Heart Inv. 69.24 Milan Italy
\mathfrak{P}89 350 Hebrews 6 Laurentian Library PL III/292 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}90 150 John 18:36-19:1; 19:1-7 † Sackler Library P. Oxy. 3523; 65 6 B. 32/M (3-5)a Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}91 250 Acts 2:30-37;
2:46-3:2 Universitŕ degli Studi di Milano
Macquarie University P. Mil. Vofl. Inv. 1224
P. Macquarie inv. 360 Milan
Sydney Italy
Australia
\mathfrak{P}92 300 Ephesians 1; 2 Thessalonians 1 Egyptian Museum PNarmuthis 69.39a/229a Cairo Egypt
\mathfrak{P}93 450 John 13 † Girolamo Vitelli Papyrological Institute PSI 108 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}94 500 Romans 6 Egyptian Museum P. Cair. 10730 Cairo Egypt
\mathfrak{P}95 250 John 5 Laurentian Library PL II/31 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}96 550 Matthew 3 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Pap. K 7244 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}97 600 Luke 14 Chester Beatty Library BP XVII Dublin Ireland
\mathfrak{P}98 150(?) Revelation 1 Institut Français d'Archéologie Orientale P. IFAO inv. 237b Cairo Egypt
\mathfrak{P}99 400 Glossary, words and phrases from:
Ro, 2 Co, Gal and Eph

Chester Beatty Library BP XXI (Ac. 1499), fol 11-14 Dublin Ireland
\mathfrak{P}100 300 James 3-5 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4449 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}101 250 Matthew 3-4 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4401 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}102 300 Matthew 4 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4402 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}103 200 Matthew 13-14 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4403 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}104 150 Matthew 21:34-37; 21:43,45? Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4404 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}105 500 Matthew 27-28 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4406 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}106 250 John 1 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4445 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}107 250 John 17 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4446 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}108 250 John 17/18 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4447 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}109 250 John 21 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4448 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}110 300 Matthew 10:13-15,25-27 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4494 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}111 250 Luke 17 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4495 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}112 450 Acts 26-27 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4496 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}113 250 Romans 2 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4497 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}114 250 Hebrews 1 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4498 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}115 300 Revelation 2-3,5-6,8-15 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4499 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}116 600 Hebrews 2-3 Österreichische Nationalbibliothek P. Vindob. G 42417 Vienna Austria
\mathfrak{P}117 400 2 Corinthians 7 University of Hamburg Inv. 1002 Hamburg Germany
\mathfrak{P}118 250 Romans 15-16 Institut für Altertumskunde
University of Cologne Inv. 10311 Cologne Germany
\mathfrak{P}119 250 John 1 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4803 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}120 350 John 1 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4804 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}121 250 John 19 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4805 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}122 400 John 21 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4806 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}123 350 1 Corinthians 14-15 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4844 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}124 550 2 Corinthians 11 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4845 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}125 300 1 Peter 1:23-2:5; 2:7-12 Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4934 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}126 350 Hebrews 13:12-13.19-20 Girolamo Vitelli Papyrological Institute PSI inv. 1479 Florence Italy
\mathfrak{P}127 450 Acts 10-17 † Sackler Library P. Oxy. 4968 Oxford UK
\mathfrak{P}128 600 John 9-10,12[9] Metropolitan Museum of Art Inv 14.1.527 New York City USA
\mathfrak{P}129 250 1 Corinthians 7:36-39; 8:10-9:3; 9:14-17; 9:27-10:6[9] Green Collection USA
\mathfrak{P}130 300 Hebrews 9:9-12, 19-23[9] Green Collection USA
\mathfrak{P}131 250 Romans 9:18-21,22-10:3[9] Green Collection USA
Distribution based on content[edit]
Distribution of Papyri Witness for each New Testament book
NT Book Total Early NT Book Total Early
Matthew 23 11 1 Timothy 0 0
Mark 3 2 2 Timothy 0 0
Luke 10 6 Titus 2 1
John 30 19 Philemon 2 1
Acts 14 7 Hebrews 8 4
Romans 10 5 James 6 4
1 Corinthians 8 3 1 Peter 3 1
2 Corinthians 4 2 2 Peter 2 1
Galatians 2 1 1 John 2 1
Ephesians 3 3 2 John 1 0
Philippians 3 2 3 John 1 0
Colossians 2 1 Jude 3 2
1 Thessalonians 4 3 Revelation 7 4
2 Thessalonians 2 2

Note: "Early" manuscripts are manuscripts from the fourth century or earlier. Roughly half of the papyri are "early". Some manuscripts contain content from more than one New Testament book, so the numbers above do not directly correspond to the total number of manuscripts.


If you compare the older versions, dating from a few hundred years AD or so, to the newer versions, subsequent to that, you see the progressive shift from a young woman, to virginity, then perpetual virginity....in 451 AD.

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Old 10-07-2015, 03:14 PM #5912
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

And in typical Teej fashion, when asked for sources he replies with the "laundry list tactic". We're all capable of dropping long lists of sources to support our beliefs, but notice that it's not an effective method for communicating a point in a discussion.
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:31 PM #5913
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Im confused.
Whats your problem? You just asked him for sources. He gave them to you and now you you whine ( as you usually do ) about the VAST quantity of sources that support is point.

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I would suggest you ask him so cite the sources of his criticism, but from my own personal experience he will just ignore you.
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:39 PM #5914
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
Im confused.
Whats your problem? You just asked him for sources. He gave them to you and now you you whine ( as you usually do ) about the VAST quantity of sources that support is point.
In case you didn't notice, he didn't include a single link to any of those so called sources, are we supposed to google each one of them?

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Old 10-07-2015, 03:40 PM #5915
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
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Im confused.
Whats your problem? You just asked him for sources. He gave them to you and now you you whine ( as you usually do ) about the VAST quantity of sources that support is point.
Unless you've gone through all those sources, which I doubt you have, how would you know what they support. If you really ever got into this discussion and asked me for sources I would not to what Teej just did. To keep things focused and communication meaningful, you don't drop 100's of sources on someone.
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:56 PM #5916
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

How do you eat an elephant?
You asked for SOURCES and got exactly what you asked for. If the quantity is overwhelming then just pick one.
Let me google that for you

You are correct about my not going through all those sources. I have never taken any religious studies classes.

Any time you offer sources, they are either quotes from the bible, or from other peoples interpretations of the bible. I consider both to be the source supporting the source. "The bible says its true so therefore it has to be true." ( sorry. I don't know all the fancy terminology you guys love to use to describe argument styles. )

As for my entering the conversation, I admit that both you and Teej are far better suited for this debate.

Keep up the good work. It is fascinating to watch.
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Old 10-07-2015, 04:14 PM #5917
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
You asked for SOURCES and got exactly what you asked for.
I sure did didn't I, but not in a format that I can realistically use to see if any of Teej's points are valid.


Quote:
"The bible says its true so therefore it has to be true."
What would you require to consider the gospels true.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:32 PM #5918
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
And in typical Teej fashion, when asked for sources he replies with the "laundry list tactic". We're all capable of dropping long lists of sources to support our beliefs, but notice that it's not an effective method for communicating a point in a discussion.
LOL

The church supports my beliefs?

Look, I even highlighted (In bold...) one that was the most germane.

Its right at the top.

As THAT refers to other references, I ADDED those too, as much of what's discussed is simply referencing other sources, and, I wanted you to be able to see examples of where this stuff comes from.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:50 PM #5919
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
In case you didn't notice, he didn't include a single link to any of those so called sources, are we supposed to google each one of them?

Alan
You want a link to a scrap of papyrus?

I gave the reference for the church's and biblical scholars (NOT atheist web sites, etc)

The scholars read and interpreted the papyrus, compare the various documents, compared them to other later documents, analyzed the patterns and findings, etc.

There's no one google link to all that...just linkS to all that, which you have.

If I had googled all of them, instead of reading books made of paper, etc. and book marked the links, yes, it would be easier.

I instead googled what I remembered to get what came up, which included some original sources..but not google links for THEM, etc.


I tell you what, if you make a statement, I accept supporting references to paper, papyrus, carvings on rocks, whatever...I don't demand to be spoon fed so I can just keep avoiding actually absorbing content.

I LIKE content.



When the content is in the document itself, so that its SELF verifying (In valid), sure, exterior references are quite welcome.

So are actual original thoughts...that were not copied from somewhere else, but are the presenter's. Its FORUM, so you SHOULD be able to tell me what YOU think...and why.

If the "why" is always faith, fine, I know where you're coming from, and, I accept it at face value as how you feel/what you believe.

If the "why" is based upon an article, a scientific finding, etc, sure, I would like to see it. If you don't have it handy, I don't assume you made it up, but, I might think its at least possible that the source was mistaken...or correct.

If the article, etc, mentioned, such as the jesus's house hoax, is known to me, I might go to a link if provided to be sure its the same one...especially if from the original dates.

If its from say , a recent version, its possible that by coincidence, additional work actually found what the earlier work lied about....making it now true (This can happen of course).

So, if its claimed that a nail was found and proven to have been in jesus on the cross, yeah...I might need a bit more proof than if its claimed that a nail was found, and so forth.



If I claim that the hebrew prophesy used the word for a young woman, and christian version also said young woman, and then virgin, and finally perpetual virgin...I have no problem with someone vested in that being false, questioning my word against the word of his church's sermons.

I'd EXPECT it.

So, I gave references for the entire process, in enough detail that you can go through the CHURCH'S records...and see what the CHURCH had on it.

They agree with me of course...as I got it all from them, so its really me just telling you what they said, not anything new I came up with on my own.

I spent many years at Princeton's library and seminary studies, because the process is FASCINATING...and I enjoyed learning about it.

You TOO can learn about the history of your religion.
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:16 PM #5920
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

[QUOTE=Teej;1383194][quote]

(See earlier post with all the citations)

Spoon:

Quote:
If you compare the older versions, dating from a few hundred years AD or so, to the newer versions, subsequent to that, you see the progressive shift from a young woman, to virginity, then perpetual virginity....in 451 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Pelikan


The theory of Mary’s “perpetual virginity” became official dogma at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451, and thus is binding upon both the Greek and Roman segments of the Church (Pelikan, 14.1000).



OK, you want ONE citation...I took it from the post above, as it was already there...and made a special place for it, here, so you can find it easier, w/o being do overwhelmed by too much information.

I googled the author (Thank god I knew his first name too), so you can see the scholar of the one citation you asked for.


He had a lot of the source material, and if you follow him in conjunction to the other citations, you can see the references, from the church, regarding, for example (Picking one, again, to make it easy for you...), the Counsel of Chalcedon in 451 AD, which is WHEN they decided Mary's virginity was actually perpetual, and not just before Jesus's birth. (After a long period prior to the counsel, where they all had different opinions)

In case you like a wicki version of the above that's less technical:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpet...ginity_of_Mary



You could also google Mariology I suppose, which is specific to her issues (the study of Mary).



--------------------

OK, I think that's supported enough, w/o a lot of sources, and with google potential at least.



Now that THAT'S covered, and we can all see the discussed progression of "Intactness of Mary"...


...what would you like to discuss next?





I would still like someone to answer the question as to whether god has ever been immoral.

Has he?


(Old or new testament examples, or oyur personal experiences with god, if applicable, are fine, just whether GOD has ever been immoral though)

Last edited by Teej; 10-07-2015 at 10:45 PM.
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