Old 10-06-2015, 05:05 PM #5889
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Feel free to source your claims. I don't find you credible when you say things like...






And here claiming to know something you cannot know or even reasonably assume.

So, you can assume your supposition/premise is correct, as a given, and I cannot make a counter supposition without being able to state it?


IE: Does Jesus exist?

You: He does, because he says he does.

Me: Maybe he does, or doesn't exist as described, because there is evidence that the source (bible) has evidence that it was not written by who it says it was.

You: You can't say that w/o proof.




You can say he existed with no proof, but I can't say he was potentially not who is described, unless I have proof?



In reality, he seems to have existed, just not as portrayed in the bible.

The proof of that is partially IN the bible, when contrasted with known historical data.

When you assume only the bible is true, and doubt the historical data, you bias your assumptions proportionally.


Proof is a tough bar to set. Evidence might be a better objective in this case, as the data is historical in nature, and proof, in the logical sense, would be tough either way.

Consider it analogous to a preponderance of evidence, such as in a civil case, as opposed to a criminal case.

There's a preponderance of evidence that the bible is a fabrication...including historical documents, etc.

The bible ITSELF is its only evidence of its own veracity, as exterior sources indicate conflicts.


In a trial, this is "the story just doesn't add up".

The only witness, the Catholic Church, says its infallible and represents god on earth...yet, made mistakes.

Is that a credible witness?



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Old 10-06-2015, 05:27 PM #5890
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
We're barely sure Jesus existed,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
In reality, he seems to have existed, just not as portrayed in the bible.
Changed stances so quickly.

I do care to have a well rounded faith and to hear Biblical criticisms, but I have no faith in the credibility of your words, which is why I asked you to source your claims.

You're back to horrible formatting and incoherent rambling, there are other atheists here who at least care enough to communicate and format clearly. I'll go right back to ignoring you if you can't clean it up.
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:09 PM #5891
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
As some places mentioned in the bible didn't actually exist at the time they needed to, Bethlehem for example, did not exist until hundreds of years after Jesus was alleged to have been born there....but those writing the narrative did not know it wasn't there, and said stuff happened there because it worked at the time....and so forth.
Your just making up total bullshit. Bethlehem was the birthplace and home town of king David born in 1040BC, Bethlehem existed more than one thousand years before the time of Jesus, and the catholic church didn't write the Old Testament, Jews wrote it.

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Old 10-06-2015, 06:49 PM #5892
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Your just making up total bullshit. Bethlehem was the birthplace and home town of king David born in 1040BC, Bethlehem existed more than one thousand years before the time of Jesus, and the catholic church didn't write the Old Testament, Jews wrote it.

Alan
I made a mistake, and typed Bethlehem instead of Nazareth for where Jesus was supposed to have been from.

I apologize.

I blame a coffee deficiency - sorry.


So, plug in Nazareth, and it stands.




It didn't exist when Jesus was alive...it was founded over a century or so later.


Essentially, due to translation errors, some words for THE SECT he belonged to (Rebelling against Rome), sounded a lot like Nazareth, and, as spellings were not standardized in ancient times, this sort of thing was easy to occur if someone not familiar with the area, writing a story about it centuries later, tries to incorporate these aspects into the story.

So, "apostles" who were never there, wrote about things that didn't happen, as having happened, there.

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Old 10-06-2015, 07:22 PM #5893
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Changed stances so quickly.

I do care to have a well rounded faith and to hear Biblical criticisms, but I have no faith in the credibility of your words, which is why I asked you to source your claims.

You're back to horrible formatting and incoherent rambling, there are other atheists here who at least care enough to communicate and format clearly. I'll go right back to ignoring you if you can't clean it up.
Its not a change. Barely doesn't equal "not".

I provided a lot of context indicating that there's evidence of a historic jesus, but not as depicted in the bible.

That is what I am saying.

If looking for quick easy outs, sure, jump on things out of context...but, I think you actually don't mean to do that.


If a lot of words overwhelm you, I understand. That's fine, just pick ONE thing, and reply to it. That's fair.



How about Nazareth.

Find evidence it used to exist BC.

ONLY the bible, and, sources centuries later, mention it as existing back then.

Sources back then, don't.

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Old 10-06-2015, 08:09 PM #5894
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

IMHO, lunatics who claim to be the son of God are not wrong, although where they might go wrong is thinking that they are in an exclusive club, or their followers, if they have them, thinking so too. Also, some considered lunatics are merely enlightened to the reality of it all, so far out of the norm in their thinking they are considered crazy.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:49 PM #5895
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Find evidence it used to exist BC.
Jesus-era Home Found in Nazareth : Discovery News

You ignore my requests for sources for your criticism and you insult me, back to ignoring you now.
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:32 PM #5896
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Troy was a real place, should I take the Iliad and the odyssey as historical fact? sirens and cyclopses surely must exist

which remids me of the unicorns in the bible. considering how many christians there are, there should be way more believers in unicorns. giants too.

speaking of giants. why is it that every time a candidate for human ancestry is unearthed it is never proof enough for many religious? where are all the Giant remains and unicorn remains, and dragons too? that's what I'd like to see. show me a fossil dragon, unicorn, and giant, and I may convert. all these are in the bible

straight from the respective horses mouthes:

https://answersingenesis.org/extinct...-in-the-bible/

Were there really fire breathing dragons?

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-c...old-testament/

also, could a christian please demonstrate how they know the stars are small enough to fall to the ground (REV 6:13)

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Old 10-06-2015, 11:40 PM #5897
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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Jesus-era Home Found in Nazareth : Discovery News

You ignore my requests for sources for your criticism and you insult me, back to ignoring you now.
That was found to be a hoax, or at least a mistake by the Franciscans in charge of the excavation. It WOULD have been an exciting find all by itself, as finding old architecture, etc, always has the potential to broaden the science and knowledge of that era.

Essentially, it was a little newer than claimed, and, isn't on a mountain to have a cliff by a synagogue, its in a valley...etc.

IE: They did say it could be as late as 100 BC to 100 AD, but they were off by ~ few 100 years or so...

So for there have been a village to be from, it perhaps needed to be there earlier, so he could say be born there at least...and would need to be up on a mountain and not in a valley, etc.

As an entire jesus based tourist industry has been established there for many many years, unfortunately, they had too vested an interest in finding the evidence....which WOULD HAVE made them very rich....if other experts had not more accurately dated the remains, etc.


So, again Nazareth was simply a confusion between hebrew words that sounded similar, and, as the writers were never there, and some were not familiar with the hebrew, greek translations were chosen, and, by then, the original words were not able to be corrected from the greek.

Luckily - Some early versions did exist, and what the greek was mistranslated from was available.


I didn't mean to insult you btw...I apologize if I did.

How about just whether god was ever immoral?

Was he ever immoral?



I don't think its fair to go after the low hanging fruit, all the silly bronze age beliefs that were assumed true when it was all being composed....no one lives their life differently because the earth goes around the sun instead of the other way around...well, unless they have a job where that sort of thing is important.

I think the larger questions of morality/moral compass and so forth, the aspects that do seem to act as guidance, might be more important at least.


The stuff you'd think a god would know, but didn't, that's less important IMHO, as far as the bible's impact on a person's life.

Most people I know at least know that there's no dragon tails knocking stars from the sky, etc...or water doming the planet, and that the earth is millions of years old not thousands...but, many DO refer to the bible for moral guidance.



Its my own observation, but, the cherry picking I think is simply HOW people make sense of the bible, so they CAN rationalize using it for guidance.

That's the cart leading the horse of course, but is at least the moral equivalent of the mentor who asks "well, do YOU think that's right?"

So, they lead themselves...no one I know at least (Yes, I don't know that many people, compared to the world population...) reads the bible and suddenly declares that bashing babies heads in is something that should be done...or that loving their fellow man would be evil....

...Most people, and many chimpanzees, etc, in experiments, seem to have a sense of right and wrong, innately, and I'm reasonably sure no chimps read the bible.

If we call all the religion's scriptures "bibles", for simplicity's sake:


Over reaching claims about the bible are harmful though, as the quagmire required for a student to accept both known science, and, the bible's wrong information....if they are made to feel that if in doubt, the bible gets precedence, and the student's future is diluted.


If they'd back off and treat the bible as allegory/not literal - it would be less dangerous.

If they could accept others NOT accepting the bible, and not feel so threatened by disagreements, a lot of worldwide conflicts would evaporate.

When beheading someone, or burning them at the stake, etc, is considered justified for NOT believing something...that's, to me at least, unreasonable.

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Old 10-07-2015, 01:38 AM #5898
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Stop with the triple posting, it isn't allowed in other parts of the forum but for some reason it's allowed in this thread! You have done it before. I guess Avery and the mods are athiests too and don't like those who believe in something. LPF is a great place but all beliefs are not treated equal here. You are just trying to increase your post count. From now on if I double or triple post in another thread and anyone says anything about it I am going to be really pissed!!!!!

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Old 10-07-2015, 03:42 AM #5899
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Stop with the triple posting, it isn't allowed in other parts of the forum but for some reason it's allowed in this thread! You have done it before. I guess Avery and the mods are athiests too and don't like those who believe in something. LPF is a great place but all beliefs are not treated equal here. You are just trying to increase your post count. From now on if I double or triple post in another thread and anyone says anything about it I am going to be really pissed!!!!!

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Old 10-07-2015, 03:45 AM #5900
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hell, for myself I'd like to shave off 1000 posts, the ratio between your posts and rep count looks better then
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:39 AM #5901
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I guess Avery and the mods are athiests too and don't like those who believe in something. LPF is a great place but all beliefs are not treated equal here.

You are just trying to increase your post count.
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Old 10-07-2015, 10:59 AM #5902
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Troy was a real place, should I take the Iliad and the odyssey as historical fact? sirens and cyclopses surely must exist

which remids me of the unicorns in the bible. considering how many christians there are, there should be way more believers in unicorns. giants too.

speaking of giants. why is it that every time a candidate for human ancestry is unearthed it is never proof enough for many religious? where are all the Giant remains and unicorn remains, and dragons too? that's what I'd like to see. show me a fossil dragon, unicorn, and giant, and I may convert. all these are in the bible
It is mostly believed by Christians that they died out in the flood some 5000 or so years ago. I can't offer a reasonable explanation, am just saying this is a common belief. Dragons though were probably hunted down and killed until they were extinct, that is assuming they ever even existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
also, could a christian please demonstrate how they know the stars are small enough to fall to the ground (REV 6:13)
Yes, this is a mistranslation and is not talking about stars at all, but it is talking about people. It is a little more clear when mentioned again in Revelation 12:


"3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The War in Heaven

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


When Satan started the rebellion in the kingdom of heaven, one third of the people sided with Satan.

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Old 10-07-2015, 11:39 AM #5903
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Stop with the triple posting, it isn't allowed in other parts of the forum but for some reason it's allowed in this thread! You have done it before. I guess Avery and the mods are athiests too and don't like those who believe in something. LPF is a great place but all beliefs are not treated equal here. You are just trying to increase your post count. From now on if I double or triple post in another thread and anyone says anything about it I am going to be really pissed!!!!!

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I normally make longer posts, but, the theists can't READ long posts, and complain about the length, so, I made shorter ones, requiring that there be more of them to say the same thing.

THEN, YOU say there are too MANY posts, and I should make one long one instead.

I think some just don't want to SEE dissenting opinions.

At least, that's the impression the combination of complaints lead to.


I suppose it IS easier to act as though the formatting is the problem rather than the content, as that's easier to attack.
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:11 PM #5904
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It is mostly believed by Christians that they died out in the flood some 5000 or so years ago. I can't offer a reasonable explanation, am just saying this is a common belief. Dragons though were probably hunted down and killed until they were extinct, that is assuming they ever even existed.



Yes, this is a mistranslation and is not talking about stars at all, but it is talking about people. It is a little more clear when mentioned again in Revelation 12:


"3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The War in Heaven

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


When Satan started the rebellion in the kingdom of heaven, one third of the people sided with Satan.

Alan
The entire rev section reads like an allegory, given the numbers of things, horns, heads, etc. Many scholars feel the numbers and described characters represented specific rulers and kingdoms, etc.

It has a dream-like quality to it...and, not surprisingly, leads to interpretations that would be analogous to telling what a dream might mean.

I think 1/3 stars in heaven are not 1/3 people, I think it's just also 1/3 people as well as referencing 1/3 of the stars...as 3 was a numerically important number, as were 7, 12, etc...based upon early numerology.

The fact is, back then, they DID think the stars were small, and close. When a "Falling star" was found on the ground, it WAS small, and, as they assumed the fallen star was actually a star, not knowing about meteorites, etc, so, there was evidence that supported their ancient misconception (It was not crazy at least to have made that mistake)

A god who made them all should have known what a meteorite was, etc, but, not a bronze age guy...he had not the tools yet, as science had not filled in the missing gaps in knowledge, DESPITE the entire apple eating imbroglio.


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