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Old 10-05-2015, 07:10 AM #5857
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I can point towards a direction of study which will answer many questions, if you study NDE's or Near Death Experiences, study them for their similarities, not the differences. Take all of the religious biased NDE's with a grain of salt and just look for what is common in them instead. I've been studying them for 20 years now and there are some very fascinating stories which appear to be much more than just the mind running in a dream land reality prior to being extinguished. For myself, I am convinced there is an afterlife but not in the way religions often teach, the answer why there is an after life is simply because consciousness is primary in this universe, not secondary. From the best I have been able to gather, consciousness came first, then the material universe and then consciousness acting upon and through physical reality... i.e., through us. I don't believe consciousness is a product of the brain but rather, it acts through the brain. While I believe we have individual identities, I also believe we are the same life, all of us and have been living it from the past through now and will continue to do so into the infinite future to come. Yes, saying it's impossible to love your neighbor as yourself is clearly wrong, especially because I no longer see a division between any of us, just multiple appearances of self in many different bodies and forms, thus loving your neighbor is really loving yourself too, we are all one life with individual bodies and minds, souls in a way... As best I have come to understand, behind the souls of all of us is the thing we all come from as a collective consciousness we are tied into the same way fractals repeat the same patterns, that we are individual yet in essence all one. At some level I suspect that oneness understands everything, sees all and experiences everything happening throughout the universe as an all seeing eye, so to speak, and that its observation and awareness of us and everything in the universe is what keeps it stable, without that onlooking understanding we would just poof out of existence (solving the quantum mechanics question of how something can continue to exist as both a cloud of possibilities, or as a collapsed probability even when it isn't be observed). I don't call that self-conscious collective mind a deity any more than any one of us are, but it is as close to God as I think exists.

Regarding an earlier post in the thread mentioning the way some see being naked as immoral, in my mind, nipples, naked bodies etc., there is nothing immoral with that at all in public, except in our cultures.

If anyone is interested in going deep down the rabbit hole regarding how consciousness is primary, not secondary and how it acts through us instead of being created by our brains, google and start reading Stewart Hammeroff's theories on mirco tubules in the brain. There is a lot of his stuff on youtube too.


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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 10-05-2015, 07:45 AM #5858
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Alaskan my friend I wish it was true, I wish I knew there would be an existence after our physical bodies die. Well as long as it's not hell like, lol.

I have also read about NDE's and even had a soft shutdown theory as I search for evidence of intelligent design.

But I must ask what is more innocent than a newborn child?
Why would babies be born with 2 heads or any of the defects we sometimes see...well that's a different discussion actually, never mind that now.

I can tell you where I think we go when we die, we go the same place we were before we were born...do you remember it? Neither will anyone else.

Even if there was some existence after death we would not see with eyes or touch with hands nor have memories of life or think with our brains.

We do have a subconscious but it is still part of our living brain, a physical computer.

The person we know as Mr. X is his personality it is a product of his life and connections in his brain.
If Mr. X suffers a heart attack and somehow gets revived 10 minutes later only to live out his days as a drooling vegetable then the personality we knew as Mr. X is dead even though his body is alive because all those connections in his brain are lost.

If any life force survives our physical death then it really wont matter because for all practical purposes the person we were is gone as is our ability to think and be conscious.

Think about this: Have you ever been put to sleep for a surgery?

I had my tonsils out and I was unconscious.
If my soul had a consciousness then it would have been aware while my brain was asleep.

It is my belief and a well founded one that we are biological machines and our consciousness is just like the feeling we get when we touch something.
That is it's all chemical and neurological.

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Old 10-05-2015, 02:37 PM #5859
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Talking

Saying not believing in the tooth fairy is a belief system...is a bit of a stretch...as in, its not logical.

BELIEVING in the tooth fairy IS a belief system...as you believe there is one.

Denial of a belief is not a belief, any more than your favorite pizza is "not anchovy" as opposed to say, you like the other flavors better.


It's an old schtick to try to turn it around, as always, with invalid arguments...as that's all the bible has to work with. (So far, historically at least, there has never been an unflawed logical argument. There have been COUNTLESS flawed arguments, Aquinas, and so forth wracked their brains out trying for god's sake, but, even the most brilliant men who attempted it, never found even one single solitary valid argument)


So, for the record...not believing something, is not a belief, in the way that believing something is.

You can SAY it is, but it's like a Pee Wee Herman reply as far as logic goes.

Its an invalid argument.






Religion is what you DO BELIEVE, not what you don't.


For example, you believe in the Christian God, and, by inheritance, the Jewish God, and, the Muslim God, as they are all referencing the SAME GOD.

Catholics believe in the same god as the Protestants and Baptists, and so forth.


Y'all just argue over HOW TO WORSHIP that same god.

The arguments center on how many forms the god had, whether the son, or son-in-law, or uncle, etc, was the proper earthly sub-worship target, if there WAS an earthly form too, and, if so, how many...whether there are angels and devils and other mythical being too...and their names...and so forth.



Essentially, ALL these groups saw the exact same information, and, what their own hearts and minds felt about it (Which 99% of the time, is simply how their parents felt about it, etc...)...

...and came to the conclusion that this particular god was the correct deity TO worship, and, that if not worshiped the way THEY WORSHIP, will send you to hell, etc.


ALL of these groups believe THEIR way is the ONLY WAY, and the rest of humanity is sinning/will be punished/not saved, etc.


So, if you, for example, were Catholic, YOUR "Belief" is that the Muslim religion is the wrong way to worship your god.

You would have a second belief that the Protestant way was wrong.

Of course, you'd ALSO have a belief that there was no Zeus, or other traditional god.

So, if you expect others to have to prove YOUR god DOESN'T exist, YOU would, analogously, be expected to prove that Zeus doesn't exist.

Your "Belief" is that Zeus doesn't exist...can you prove it, or merely keep saying your way is the right way as your only justification for there not being a Zeus?

DO you need to prove there is no Zeus? Are you comfortable simply knowing that he's from ancient mythology, and not real?

To convince you of Zeus's existence, what would YOU REQUIRE?

If you can't GET that evidence, would you BELIEVE in Zeus? (Because you can't support your "Belief" in there NOT BEING a Zeus)



You asking us to believe in something from mythology, sounds about the same as asking us to believe in Zeus...and, then telling us our "belief" is "That there is no Zeus"....which we'd need to prove to NOT believe in Zeus.


IE: Zeus exists unless you can prove he doesn't.


Do you agree with this statement? If you don't, it would be because you recognize the flaw in the argument.




See the pattern?







Think about it.








PS - For the sake of clarity, to be clear, I am addressing your points, not attacking your religion.

If you make a statement, and it is flawed, I will point out the flaws that cause me to not weigh your evidence as convincing, as this is a discussion...and try to steer the discussion towards at least a valid pathway.

That allows you for example to re-direct, and attempt to convince me, and others, of your point's validity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
The real question is do you want to hear the truth or to obscure it? I've seen you manipulate the content of the scriptures you quoted for your own means. I've also noticed you misinterpret scriptures. That's not your fault though because you haven't been properly educated.
I am willing to offer you answers to your questions but you must be willing to accept the proof and I do not believe you want to.
I think it's quite fair to say that the religious have done the same thing...this is the very cherry picking the rest of us object to.

There is no one overriding panel of experts who agree as to the "correct interpretation" of the scriptures, with your proof.

The catholics, the protestants, the muslims, etc, all read the same scriptures, and, came to different conclusions, and all say the others are SO wrong, that they will go to hell for it.

So...you say that YOU are the only "properly educated" arbiter of the correct interpretation? Or, perhaps, are you saying that only YOUR sect has the correct interpretation, and the others are wrong?

How do you KNOW the other's ARE wrong?


You should not waste time at this forum's modest thread, but should gather the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Baptists, Wiccans, etc...and provide this interpretation with your proof, immediately...to save them from eternal hellfire.





Historically, at least, no one has ever had VALID proof. They ALL have had flawed proofs, invalid arguments...that they THOUGHT were proof, but turned out to be flawed in their logic.

The reason for that is that the belief in god is not logical. You can FOOL people into believing it, but, there are no truly valid arguments for it...only ones that can make people think they had proof...because they are bad at logic.

This is analogous to the Lottery being sort of a tax on people who are bad at statistics.

They want to believe they will win, they will rationalize in anyway they want to, but, statistically, they do not win...and, in the long run, the average lottery ticket buyer loses money...because they had faith that they'd win.

All they need is knowing SOMEONE will win, and then hope that it's THEM.




So, they are FOOLED into believing that their chances are better than they really are....and millions of people buy tickets, many buy a lot of tickets thinking it increases their odds proportionally...

...as in two tickets means they are twice as likely to win, etc...not realizing their flawed math.

Apparently, they were not properly educated.

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Old 10-05-2015, 05:13 PM #5860
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
I've seen you manipulate the content of the scriptures you quoted for your own means. I've also noticed you misinterpret scriptures.
From your perspective, everyone that interprets scripture differently to you is misinterpreting it. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
I am willing to offer you answers to your questions but you must be willing to accept the proof
You don't think that's a bit presumptuous? I accept proofs and arguments if they merit acceptance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
if you study NDE's or Near Death Experiences, study them for their similarities, not the differences.
You've already failed the first premise. NDEs can be induced with chemicals and oxygen starvation and the like. Of course the brain freaks out under stress. Why should we trust what we experience in such a state?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
there are some very fascinating stories
Stories cannot be substantiated, and do not qualify as evidence in science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
From the best I have been able to gather, consciousness came first, then the material universe
Gathered from WHERE?? Nevermind, don't answer that. The last thing I need is more alien pyramid aura illuminati conspiracy sites.

SCIENCE says the brain is required for consciousness. If you can demonstrate otherwise, you'll be famous. Why do you think none of your youtube buddies have taken up that task?
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:26 PM #5861
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

If the brain is not responsible for you being conscious, why can a drug that affects the brain make you unconscious, or even change what you are conscious of/fool you into thinking things are not as they are?

Why does decapitation seem to kill people?

Why does removal of parts of the brain remove consciousness?

Yes, there are (Bogus/disproved) examples of those with brain damage who "seemed ok" etc...but, they were not proved to be valid/proved invalid.

IE: The percentages of brain loss were grossly exaggerated, and, so were the quite normal ability of the brain to use undamaged parts to take over new functions, as well as the degree of function...which accounted for the majority of quasi-realistic examples.


The sad fact is, we are essentially just meat.

We are meat that can be aware of that, and the opportunities available to enjoy being alive for a brief time.

If you are the kind of meat that needs there to be more than that...well, you will most likely make up a fantasy world that makes you feel like your life has meaning...instead of finding meaning in the life you are living.




IE: We have one life. We can be disappointed by that, and act like we don't see any point of having one unless we can have an infinite number of them too...or...appreciate the one we KNOW we have, and, make the most of it.

If you feel your life has no purpose, other than to have additional lives...find a magic lamp, rub it, and then as your wish, ask for more wishes, ad infinitum. It's about the same concept.

If you want your life TO have a purpose, choose a purpose...and, work towards it.

That's the only PROVEN way for your life to have purpose, other than by accident.






If I were a creator, ESPECIALLY one SO concerned that people WORSHIP ME, that if they didn't do it RIGHT, I would torture them for all eternity....I would do a REALLY good job of making sure they knew I existed, and, being a god and all, I think I would be able to do a cracker jack job of it....perfect in fact, such that no one would doubt my existence, or, how they MUST worship me to avoid eternal damnation.

If I were a really poor god, barely able to conjure up a miracle without using (Miracle) Max, or, bathroom mold stains and potato chips, etc...

...fine, I guess that's all I'd have, but I'd have to be REALLY vindictive and petty to torture those who doubted the mold stains and chips and didn't worship me....I mean, really?


Would I choose the Catholic Church to represent me here on earth?

If so, why would I choose the Jews first? Why establish Judaism, THEN the religion I REALLY wanted them to follow?

Maybe I'd THEN choose a third option, Islam?

Why not? I've already changed my mind at least once in that regard.


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Old 10-05-2015, 08:00 PM #5862
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Seems like you were but if you've changed stances here that's fine we can put it to rest.






4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NASB

Saying it's impossible to love your neighbor as yourself is clearly wrong. And just because it's hard to forgive and love those who have wronged you certainly does not mean it's unhealthy for mankind. Forgiveness in difficulties is a powerful thing, and one of the greatest examples of Christ working in lives.




It's pointless for you and I do discuss theology specifics when you don't even acknowledge the root of it all, Christ.

Also don't forget atheism is a truth claim and truth claims have the burden of proof, and to date I've found atheistic naturalism to be a weak case for reality.

How is Christ the root of theology?

I believe theology existed well before christ's time.

Christ is not even near the root, let alone the root itself.


Science and theology shared roots...as, in the beginning, we simply wanted to UNDERSTAND the world around us.

There were things that wanted to eat us, strange lights and noises in the sky, strange things we just could not explain, as we didn't yet have the tools.


If you are a primitive being...in a scary place, you would be comforted by knowing what was going on...and, not knowing, was scarier.

Humans have a very well documented NEED to convince themselves that they know more than they do...as KNOWING that you DON'T know, is scary.


If someone supplies an explanation...and you NEED ONE, you tend to jump on it...as it relieves anxiety.

So, primitive peoples are very well documented regarding initially just hoping a fish would bite/the deer would come into range, etc...and that developing into asking them to, and that developed into what we now call praying.

That's why the earliest deities were the streams and mountains, animals, etc.


That evolved to things having "spirits"...and then eventually, hierarchies of spirits.

That in turn developed into groups having their own spirits, talisman, etc.

If groups fought, it was considered that these talisman, etc, were hopefully more powerful than the other side's.

The idea that the other side's talisman/spirits DID NOT EXIST did not really start until Christianity....when demands that only THEIR talisman, so to speak, were real, came about.

Before that, even for the Jews...it was about REJECTING WORSHIP of the other gods, not that they didn't exist.

The competition BETWEEN gods for the affections/worship of the people didn't commence until religion was organized via "representatives" of the spirits...as the "representatives, for obvious reasons, worked hard to convince people that their sacrifices should be to THEM.


So, my god is more powerful/will get you want you want better, turned into no gods before me, turned into no other gods, period.

It's a power play, historically...the more vested the vestments, the more competitive the claims for THEIR god.


Eventually, the Big Three evolved to essentially say they mean they are the only god, and, only their way is correct.

It's fairly effective, as it plays on people's fears, as they want to be the same as everyone else, and, they want everyone to agree...so it feels right.


That's why ALL of these religions say their interpretation of which god and how to worship is the ONLY correct choice.

They evolved to be that way.


The Jews had a messiah myth, capitalized on to present Jesus, as part of that myth...

...and those who believed he WAS the Jewish Messiah were then morphed into, strangely, followers of the messiah instead of god or the religion of the messiah himself...

..while others rejected the messiah, saying he wasn't really the right guy, and stayed Jewish...

And, later, ANOTHER messiah came forth, and was accepted by some and rejected by others...so a THIRD religion started....who said essentially, yeah, Jesus was a prophet, but not the messiah...and so on and so forth.


Some people looked that the mess and said, you know what, it's ALL BS.

Some said, "I like the first version", others the second, and some others the third...and then started to kill each other over who was right.


A few others said, eff em, I worship trees, or volvos, or whatever.

sigh







Atheism is not anything except not believing the claims that god exists.

It doesn't have anything to do with evolution, how old the earth is, the big bang, string theory or voting for a Democrat or Republican, etc.

Believing that there are natural causes for things, especially given that, so far, we find natural causes for things, is a separate belief as well.

Believing that there are supernatural causes for things, especially considering that no supernatural causes have ever been found, for anything...ever, is also a separate belief.


So, if you find natural causes for things, such as tides being caused by the moon's gravity, to make sense...or, if you learn about gravity and tides, but it doesn't click for you, and you believe instead that supernatural forces are responsible, you will fall into these respective camps.


If you find gravity causing tides to be weak as an explanation, and supernatural forces to simply work better as an explanation...that's just who you are.


If you find that the pursuit of understanding the universe via science has yielded actual results, such as global positioning systems, cell phones, travel to other planets, sliced bread, etc, and that the pursuit of religion to understand the universe has yielded actual results such as the world being flat, the sun revolving around the earth, etc...which seems to weight your universe towards science being better at explaining it....you are a believer in natural causes for things.


If you find that mankind understands how the universe works better by reading the bible, you are a believer in supernatural causes.


You are free to choose whatever YOU think does a better job, for YOU.


Just remember that others WILL disagree...even as to how the supernatural parts might work, let alone whether they exist or not.


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Old 10-06-2015, 02:22 AM #5863
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It must be terrible for you atheists. No hope for the future. No meaning in life. No value or reason to live and the fact that everything will eventually become inert lifeless matter.

Also I don't cherry pick. The bible isn't as complicated as you guys think it is. As I said you just aren't educated on the matter. The cross? It's wrong on many levels. Historically the cross wasn't used until a later time. The bible also is against idiols so plastering the cross on your walls, jewelry, tatoos and everything else is also wrong. That's just one example.
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:32 AM #5864
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
How is Christ the root of theology?


Just read the beginning of the Book of John:

Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:13 AM #5865
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
It must be terrible for you atheists. No hope for the future. No meaning in life. No value or reason to live and the fact that everything will eventually become inert lifeless matter.

Also I don't cherry pick. The bible isn't as complicated as you guys think it is. As I said you just aren't educated on the matter. The cross? It's wrong on many levels. Historically the cross wasn't used until a later time. The bible also is against idiols so plastering the cross on your walls, jewelry, tatoos and everything else is also wrong. That's just one example.
LOL

Is that what you were taught, or, did you come up with the idea that prior to Christianity, life was terrible and there was no hope?

Is the reason you LIVE, that you actually you think you will live MORE after you DIE?

THAT gives your life meaning?

How about your life meaning whatever you want it to?

Sure, there are physical limits, where and when you're born, etc....but, as many have posted, even trying to live according to the bible is a try, and not expected to succeed 100%.


Now, about that bible....there's the old testament, the one everything else is based upon...and without which, an awful lot of the new testament is gone.

The new includes the old...its where the Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, and, of course, the original sin, come from.

No original sin, nothing to die for in atonement, etc.


So, there is no christ without the old testament, or, he died for nothing.

So, you get the old one from the Jews, who plagiarized/borrowed most of it from Sumerian and other earlier sources.

You then get the Catholic Church, who copies it all down, accurately and to the letter, unless you look at the older versions, and realize that, over time, depending upon the political needs of those in charge...it was edited to read in a way that supported these powers.

They fixed this by simply saying everything was "Inspired" by god, who whispered the words into the scribe's ears.

If there were errors...it was blamed on humans...divinely inspired humans being dictated to by god, and screwed up anyway.

The Church decreed that the words were sacred and perfect, and god's word...and that the Pope was infallible, and other ways of saying, you cannot question what we said, or even what we said others have said.

They declared that Jesus appointed the first pope, albeit there's no record of it for hundreds of years, and some of who they (Centuries later when trying to concoct a lineage) say were popes were dead or not born, at inconvenient times, etc.

They edited that all too, so later drafts had more and more gaps filled in....but records of what they actually knew were found, despite their attempts to hide them, etc.

So, all in all, you get the old testament from the jews who rewrote old myths from prior civilizations, and then a new testament who's SOURCE is the Catholic Church, who say they got it directly from GOD, and could not be wrong, aleit were proved wrong repeatedly, and even to have outright lied repeatedly.

THAT is the scripture you "study", and, to paraphrase you, you therefore understand the word of god, and, all the people who say THEY do, and that you don't, are wrong.



ALL of you guys say THEY are the only one's who understand it all, and everyone ELSE is wrong.

YOU say it too....one more voice in a the chorus of "I am properly educated, and the rest of the world is improperly educated".


---------------------------


OK, let's pretend, for the sake of discussion, that a jewish rebel, is leading a violent rebellion against Rome, as he is a zealot, fighting for a strict fundamentalist version of judaism (The most compelling scenario given historical records)....gets caught, and crucified.

The Romans did crucify people, and, sure, there's debate as to methods, etc...which is why the apostles who were supposed to witness the death of christ all have different versions, it was written hundreds of years after the alleged event...by others.

The story is that his Dad made a talking snake trick people he made to not know right from wrong, do something wrong...which, MADE them THEN know right from wrong, and, that they screwed up.

This was mankind's original sin...and why man had to work for a living, woman had to give birth painfully, and had an extra rib, etc.


OK, fast forward through a few thousand years of god induced inbreeding and incest, which was ok back then, but not OK now, as morality is subjective in the bibles....

...and, like the greek and roman gods before him, the jewish god makes a human baby appear magically inside a virgin w/o doing anything that seems nasty, like touching a woman's privies, as thousands of years ago, primitive man felt a woman was unclean. (She might have been back then, who knows...)

So, we have wee Jesus...who is immediately visited by wisemen or kings, as that's always an important harbinger of future importance every origin story must have, baby gets rare oriental spices, perfect, check, let's move on...

He's a carpenter...but, well, not really, he's a freedom fighter rebelling against Rome...but, Rome is paying for the story, so, back to the shop wee jesus.


Here's a problem...if he is a MAN, why are people praying TO HIM?

If he is NOT a man, he did not DIE, because he was a god.

If he was god's SON, there were two deities, not one, and it's not monotheism.

If he's just ONE GOD, then god was dead for a bit, and, if actually DEAD, there was no one to resurrect him as claimed.

If he WAS god, he could not have died for the sin of having an ancient ancestor tricked into making a mistake...because that would mean god died, and so on.

So, did the romans kill a man, or, god, or some sort of fake god that appeared in human form, like a hologram essentially....as if it's a form of god, it can't "die" either, and so forth.


There's a metaphysical tap dance going on about human forms and so forth..but, if Jesus was NOT GOD himself, why pray TO HIM?

Jesus prayed to god...implored god for guidance, and, was either schizophrenic, etc...or, he was not god.

If Jesus is not god...how many gods do you pray to?

As for the original sin (MADE by god to not know right from wrong, and tricked into doing something wrong...),

Some of the bible says the child is not responsible for the sins of his parents, etc...and some (SIN) says he is....which is right?


IS IT morally right to punish thousands of generations because an ancient ancestor was tricked by a talking snake?


Was that moral?


How about the nakedness?

GOD MADE THEM RUN AROUND NAKED...he could have said, hey, guys, there's just the three of us, and the snake, etc...but, its wrong to not stick a fig leaf on your genitalia....trust, me, here's a fig leaf.


No, god made them run around naked, and, when they bite the APPLE, they "realize the sin" and cover up in embarrassment....because they then "knew it was wrong".

So, it it was immoral for them to be naked, why did god make them TO run around naked? If they had NOT bit the apple, they would have REMAINED naked.

So, was it immoral to be naked?

It was immoral enough in ancient times that Noah's SON was MADE A SLAVE as punishment for SEEING his father naked. (Different versions vary on specifics, but that's the gist of it).

Is it immoral to make someone a slave?


Was it ok to be naked, then not ok to be naked, because whether that is wrong, or right, "depends"?

What about slavery...GOD made the kid a slave...so, was that moral, back then, to make someone a slave?

Is it still moral?

Did what is moral change, or, was god immoral?


Reading the bible is like a book where they took every known homily and put them all together...look for before you leap, but he who hesitates is lost type advice....so no matter what, you can find passages that support whatever you want to support, and shoot down anything you want to shoot down.

Love your fellow man, but not like you love your fellow woman. If you're a slave, treat your master with respect and loyalty, fight for what is right while turning the other cheek, and waiting for the meek to inherit the earth....but don't touch your willie while waiting.

So, about this subjective vs objective guidance in the bible...

Was slavery and murdering innocent babies moral back then, and not now?

Was rape moral back then, and not now?

Are they all still moral acts?

Would a loving and forgiving god punish the DESCENDANTS of someone, for something they didn't even do?

How does "dying for someone else's sins" work? If he did it on purpose, as claimed, TO die for our sins, it was suicide.

Is suicide moral?

If you commit suicide, via "Death by Cop", is that different that taking sleeping pills as far as sin goes?

Are either moral?


Its the same god...the book about him doesn't matter, the new book never says the old book never happened, as, w/o it, there is no original sin and no christ.

So, if not (NOT) cherry picking, you would SEE that the bible contains some nice stories, the ones told about Gilgamesh and others thousands of years ago, and some new ones written by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the alleged crucifixion, which may not have happened, and yet was told as witnessed by apostles...who forgot to be there, or even to get their stories to agree, etc.

As you say there was no crucifixion, you are already aware of the apostles "witnessing" as 100% fabrication.

ALL of it is fabrication....to placate the masses and help end rebellions.

Most of religion is actually, at least historically...to allow control of the masses by those in power.

When the church had the MOST power...it was called the "Dark Ages"....and when the church was loosing power, it was the "Renaissance".


So, anyway - explain the lying apostles who said they saw the crucifixion, the one you say didn't happen...and why you believe other stuff they spouted, but not that...and how the "word of god" was whispering lies to the scribes who said the apostles words.

Explain the morality of GOD seeming to depend upon the morals of the times, and not some objective standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Just read the beginning of the Book of John:
Right...and that was written before there were photons, or just afterwards?

Or maybe after papyrus?

Maybe thousands of years after whatever was thought to have happened?

John was not a god. How the bleep would JOHN know what happened?




And, in the beginning, there was batman, and he made darkness, but he made darkness purple to match his cape, because bats are purple not black. Then he made people, so he'd have someone to save...and, then he made the Joker, so he's have someone to save them from...and he saw it was good, and retired to stately wayne manor to mentor young robin, born of a virgin, who was almost killed every episode to forgive humanity for the commercials.

OK, so that proves batman was the origin of humanity, it says so right in the comic book.


Last edited by ARG; 10-06-2015 at 05:00 AM. Reason: merging double post
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:42 AM #5866
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Right...and that was written before there were photons, or just afterwards?

Or maybe after papyrus?

Maybe thousands of years after whatever was thought to have happened?

John was not a god. How the bleep would JOHN know what happened?

Jesus told him.

__________________
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:45 AM #5867
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RB astro View Post
Jesus told him.

LOL

And who, pray tell, told Jesus?

Is this like post office, where maybe John got some it it wrong in the retelling?
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:47 AM #5868
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teej ask me one thing at a time instead of giving me a dozen questions. Afraid to hear the truth? If not then ask one at a time. Otherwise I'm not reading your short novels and I'm not catering to you not taking the discussion seriously.
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:52 AM #5869
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Teej ask me one thing at a time instead of giving me a dozen questions. Afraid to hear the truth? If not then ask one at a time. Otherwise I'm not reading your short novels and I'm not catering to you not taking the discussion seriously.
LOL

OK, lets stick with the subjective vs objective morality subject, as its less confrontational, and some can discuss it w/o getting too personally worked up.

Both testaments refer to the same god.

God is either moral, or, immoral.

If you want to say he's sometimes moral, and sometimes immoral, that's OK too....whatever you believe represents god's morality. Again - about GOD'S morality...not the bible, etc....just the parts about god to keep it simple.


You can say he was immoral in testament 1.0, and moral in 2.0 if you want to, but, its the same god, and, I ask, was god always moral?

If so, was this an objective morality, not dependent on the times, or,a subjective morality, depending upon the morals of the times?

Last edited by Teej; 10-06-2015 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 10-06-2015, 05:20 AM #5870
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Teej ask me one thing at a time instead of giving me a dozen questions. Afraid to hear the truth? If not then ask one at a time. Otherwise I'm not reading your short novels and I'm not catering to you not taking the discussion seriously.
LOL oh that's the oldest trick, AFRAID TO HEAR THE TRUTH, just like the guy who is selling you the money making scam will say, If you're not afraid to be successful you can make millions.

The bible is not proof of anything. The only truth in the bible is that it is full of contradictions.
God did not write the bible, I think I had one that was printed in China.

If God cares about each and every one of us and hears our prayers and cares about our souls after our bodies die then why allow babies to be born with 2 heads?

Now is where you make excuses that it's a test, or God gave us free will and works in mysterious ways and we are not allowed to question.

Credit for anything good that someone prays for but never any responsibility for anything else.

Millions of Gods chosen people all praying for Hitler to have a stroke, but NOPE .....NOTHING, because we have free will.

Someone else prays for help and their sickness gets better, WELL that's the power of prayer, because God is always listening.

Without the book of babble speak prove God exists..
Without quoting a single thing from the very flawed bible prove God exists.
Without referring to the bible let me hear your so called TRUTH.
The bible is not the truth, it is a tool, and not a very good one.
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:28 AM #5871
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
LOL oh that's the oldest trick, AFRAID TO HEAR THE TRUTH, just like the guy who is selling you the money making scam will say, If you're not afraid to be successful you can make millions.

The bible is not proof of anything. The only truth in the bible is that it is full of contradictions.
God did not write the bible, I think I had one that was printed in China.

If God cares about each and every one of us and hears our prayers and cares about our souls after our bodies die then why allow babies to be born with 2 heads?

Now is where you make excuses that it's a test, or God gave us free will and works in mysterious ways and we are not allowed to question.

Credit for anything good that someone prays for but never any responsibility for anything else.

Millions of Gods chosen people all praying for Hitler to have a stroke, but NOPE .....NOTHING, because we have free will.

Someone else prays for help and their sickness gets better, WELL that's the power of prayer, because God is always listening.

Without the book of babble speak prove God exists..
Without quoting a single thing from the very flawed bible prove God exists.
Without referring to the bible let me hear your so called TRUTH.
The bible is not the truth, it is a tool, and not a very good one.
You would be wrong about that. Amazing how this thread turns what once were decent people into enemies.
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:44 AM #5872
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Without the book of babble speak prove God exists..
Without quoting a single thing from the very flawed bible prove God exists.
Without referring to the bible let me hear your so called TRUTH.
The bible is not the truth, it is a tool, and not a very good one.
Without The Word, there is no truth !
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Do you want the Truth?

Jesus created you and me.
Then He came and revealed the Truth to you and me.
Like it or not you will give account, and so will I.

Your call.....
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─────────────────────────────────☀
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,

but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
(John 3:16-21)
─────────────────────────────────☀
If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from
the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe unto righteousness
and it is with your mouth that you confess
your faith and
are saved.
(Romans 10:9-10)
─────────────────────────────────☀
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