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Old 10-03-2015, 02:21 AM #5841
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I agree it is wrong. What I'm trying to get at here is within the "atheistic naturalistic" worldview, there is no objective morality. The "bomber" could have some justification for how he believes it's good for humanity, or the "bomber" can hold the belief that consciousness and humanity arose due to random events and contains no purpose, ultimately nothing matters, so he does whatever he feels like and lives for himself.

If he holds to "atheistic naturalism" as true, what possible objective reason could you give him to serve the good of humanity and to not live every moment of his life to please himself.




"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." - John 15:12







Slavery talked about in the context of the bible is very different from the what we think of slavery today. It's more like employment than slavery from U.S. history. I encourage you to research this and to also look up what it meant when Jesus said he "Fulfilled" the law. Then these thing will make sense to you.


How is love one another, as I have loved you, objective?

How DID Jesus love?

Do we really know what that means?

In the bible, he SAYS he loved people. He washed their feet, he healed the sick, but is that love?

DO you wash strangers feet?

You feed and cloth your kids, you take care of them. You love them, but, is that love? Isn't love how you FEEL about them?







How did Jesus FEEL?

Would Jesus have loved Mahatma Gandhi, or Mother Theresa, or Adolph Hitler, or his disciples, or total strangers more? All the same? If so, that would imply you'd be COMMANDED to do the same. Is it REASONABLE to FEEL love for a total stranger, or the man who raped and murdered your son? Is it a sin to love your wife more than your neighbor's daughter, or the same?



You DON'T really have any way of knowing EXACTLY how he felt, and, to be OBJECTIVE, and not subjective, there would not need to be interpretation.


Again, morals are subjective.

You say slavery used to be like employment....except you were owned, and they could kill you, or, sell you to someone, and keep your wife and kids, or sell them, and keep you, etc.


So, slavery is either immoral, or moral, objectively, or, it depends on the times....making it subjective.


IE: If you own people, is it moral to do so no matter what, or, only if you treat your possessions well?

HOW well?

How well did they have to treat the slaves to make slavery moral?



And, again, god told people to perform genocide, and kill babies. It WAS in the old testament, but, its the SAME GOD as we see in the NEW Testament.


Was genocide moral, because back then, bashing a baby's head open against a rock was OK?

Or, was god IMMORAL?

Or, is God Immoral, in the old testament, and, then corrects his behavior later?


If it was OK in the old testament, and not ok later, that makes morality subjective not objective, or it makes god immoral.




Which is it?

Is morality objective, and therefore, god was immoral?

Is morality subjective, and god was moral when he told men to bash baby skulls open? Or is it always moral to bash open baby's heads?



Is morality objective, and slavery was always wrong, or, always right?

Is morality subjective, and slavery was OK in the past?



You can't have it both ways.


Choose.





I think MORALITY can be objective, if left as a concept to do what's right....but "What's right" is where it swings back to interpretations, and, therefore, becomes subjective again.

Slavery, your example of a subjective morality that you held up as objective in that "back then slavery was not as bad as it is now" sort of caveat...making it subjective of course. Back then, a man considered quite moral could have slaves....because it was "normal".

In parts of Afghanistan, it is quite normal for men to keep young boys as possessions, and rape them at will. It is a sign of status to have a lot of boys. Its been like that for thousands of years. It's considered "normal".




There is no objective morality in the bible that has not, even in the bible itself, contradicted by other parts of the bible...so, the bible has no objective morality in it, at all.

Id does have lots of subjective morality of course, as discussed.



So, I am a moral person (IMHO), or at least I strive to be. I care about people, I help total strangers, I do volunteer work, I donate to charities in time and money, I am ethical in business dealings and fair in dealings with people, because I just think its the right thing to do.

I don't think I will go to heaven if I act this way, or hell if I don't. I do think I am here, now, and do what I can, here on earth, in the only present I have, or will have.

I don't need a book cobbled together by bronze age politicians to tell me what's right and wrong...especially one that says something is both right, and wrong...depending on the circumstances.


I live my life with the figurative assumption that my children might know anything I did or didn't do...and I do not want there to ever be a chapter where they look at my actions, and think, I can't believe Dad didn't help when he could have, or treated that person like that, etc.

I don't want to do anything that I'm ashamed of. Its my moral compass.

The bible fails miserably as a moral compass unless you cherry pick the parts you can tell are right, and purposefully ignore the parts that are not....and if you CAN tell the difference between the parts, you don't NEED the book.




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Old 10-03-2015, 02:44 AM #5842
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The first and only point to this thread was to respectfully state what religion or class of belief or non belief each posting member adheres to... That's it. So the wheels on the bus goes round and round.
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Old 10-03-2015, 03:07 AM #5843
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by jander6442 View Post
The first and only point to this thread was to respectfully state what religion or class of belief or non belief each posting member adheres to... That's it. So the wheels on the bus goes round and round.
Well, no, it also says, in post #1, to feel free to include any additional information or back stories.


And, being a FORUM, a place where people discuss things...well, we discuss things.





Some people can't discuss a topic unless every one agrees...as disagreement on a topic is too stressful for them, especially if they don't actually want to discuss it so much as have their beliefs supported.

Some people can discuss a topic, and, stick to the points made in the discussion.

THIS thread is a veritable GOLD MINE of the human thought and belief process.


If you read it (Not a quick project by any means), with an open mind...and let the ideas and passions and thought processes flow over and through you....you can feel the heart beat of humanity.

Some beats are like USABro, but they are beating nonetheless. They TELL YOU THINGS about themselves, and how they feel.

You can get to know so many members so well this way.

Even with Bro - you get to see how that part of society THINKS and FEELS. Its real....there ARE people who have beliefs, and might vote, and raise children, who live among us. Its not a comedy routine or sketch making fun of red necks, its a real human explaining what the world seems like, to them....and their shock that others feel differently, having never been exposed to a wider human demographic before.







Its OK to disagree, and its not painful if you simply accept that people WILL disagree, and NOT get upset that chocolate tastes better and that idiot says he likes vanilla or pistachio better....and you can't convince him he should like chocolate better.

I'll listen to why pistachio is better, and if the argument is because its green...OK, I have to accept it as a valid statement at least.

If the argument is because pistachio has no nuts in it...OK, I might disagree with the statement.

Its a DISCUSSION though.

They might counter that its green food coloring and artificial flavors, and no nuts...and, well, I open my mind, and say, OK, if THAT'S pistachio, to them, fine.



I might try some pistachio to see what they like about it, and, I might find I like it too.

And so forth.


A forum is FOR discussions...and, this one is for discussing beliefs.


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Old 10-03-2015, 03:10 AM #5844
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 10-03-2015, 01:58 PM #5845
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
within the "atheistic naturalistic" worldview, there is no objective morality. The "bomber" could have some justification...
...for how he believes he is loving his fellow man just as Jesus has loved him.

Again, I'm not really arguing for objective morality. There are a set of loosely laid rules that we loosely agree upon as a society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." - John 15:12
Compulsory love.

Am I going to hell for not loving a rapist of my daughter? Why am I required to love even those which will cause me harm - those who I absolutely must fear? Jesus loved all sorts of criminals. I don't, and I'd presume you don't love many of them either. We're doomed, then?

Of the rules we agree upon society, "love everyone" is not one of them, nor is it realistic or healthy.

"It even manages to pollute the central question, the word I just employed, the most important word of all: the word love, by making love compulsory, by saying you MUST love. You must love your neighbour as yourself, something you can't actually do. You'll always fall short, so you can always be found guilty... If you fail in this duty, you're again a wretched sinner. This is not mentally or morally or intellectually healthy."
-Hitchens

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Slavery talked about in the context of the bible is very different from the what we think of slavery today. It's more like employment than slavery from U.S. history.
So all those passages explaining how much a slave is worth, how much you can beat them, and how much you can take them for *** are "employment rules"? Were the slaves paid? Were they free to leave if they wished? Were they property of another person? Do any of these characteristics really correlate with modern employment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
...I encourage you to research this and to also look up what it meant when Jesus said he "Fulfilled" the law.
Like everything else, it's open to interpretation and there are several competing explanations (covenant theology and dispensationalism for example). I'm asking what YOU believe. If I go with the first google hit, you're going to complain I'm putting words in your mouth.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:40 PM #5846
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Perhaps Bronze Age words at that.



I think, in a nut shell, that theists have the misconception that subjective, in the context of morality, means "anything goes".

It doesn't of course, as a moral person is simply a moral person, and, most of us know right from wrong, and, know if we are CHOOSING right or wrong in our actions, etc.

The problem with objective morality is that it would need to be aither algorithm based/extremely detailed, to NOT require interpretation IN PRACTICE.


So, "Thou Shall Not Kill"...DOES it apply to a soldier, or cop defending innocents, self defense, taking an antibiotic or setting a mouse trap, or preventing a conception?

As its not specified, interpretation is required to PRACTICE it.


The bible is better at ethics than morality. The difference is technically that ethics are rules, and, right/wrong are not really needed to be known to follow them.

This would be akin to a code of ethics for an attorney, etc.
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Old 10-03-2015, 07:28 PM #5847
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 10-03-2015, 08:14 PM #5848
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I realize I'm posting out of step with your deep discussion regarding religion but I'm going to do so, religion is second to our innate spiritual needs (although not all people, of course) and use this need to propel their own organizations forward off our own backs, in many cases. Human ethics and morality are just that; human perspectives. For myself, the formula to determine right and wrong first is in regard to freedom of choice, as long as we are not affecting another individuals freedom too.
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Old 10-03-2015, 08:50 PM #5849
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I agree 100%, Freedom is what made America great, it's at the very core of who we are...well were.
The land of the free and the home of the brave.
Church once served as a rally point for people to communicate before television and internet and separation of church and state had always been understood as necessary to our freedom.
Religion gave people a set of rules and something bigger than themselves and their government, a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

Sadly all that has changed, I have always felt as if religion did more harm than good throughout history as many wars and much torture has been carried out in the name of religion and even during Bush jr it halted funding of stem cell research, I hoped for it's demise and when the Catholics sheltered the pedophile priests I celebrated what I hoped would be the beginning of the end of this interference of our advancement.

Now I wonder as our government, our public servants push to become our masters if religion may have been our salvation of freedom, maybe people unified with common beliefs and common goals would be more willing to stand and defend freedom.

In my humble opinion we need a new religion in America, The Freedom first Church of Don't Tread on US. Our first order of business should be the identification of and replacement of treasonous tyrants because too many people don't even know that we are arming our enemies, enemies who's religion is built around our destruction.
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Old 10-04-2015, 05:49 PM #5850
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Good points you guys.

Everyone feels they know what is right, and, what is wrong...and what is moral, and what is immoral.

The conflict is when two opposing view points know THEY are right, and, that the other view is wrong.


A simple example is nudity, and how much is "Too Much".


In The USA, in public, a woman who expose her nipples is considered to be immoral, and we rush to hide our children's eyes from seeing them....but, seeing her face is OK.

In some middle eastern countries, seeing a woman's face is obscene, or feet, or nipples...they'd cover her eye's too if she could see that way.

In parts of Europe, nipples are OK, and faces, but not genitalia.

In parts of the rain forests, etc, genitalia is OK too.


So, depending upon where you live, if you're a woman, you are able to be totally nude, and no one will attempt to prevent their kid from seeing you.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:43 PM #5851
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
...for how he believes he is loving his fellow man just as Jesus has loved him.

Again, I'm not really arguing for objective morality. There are a set of loosely laid rules that we loosely agree upon as a society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
There is absolutely a subjective component to my morality (and yours, more on that later), but it's not completely subjective.
Seems like you were but if you've changed stances here that's fine we can put it to rest.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Compulsory love.

Am I going to hell for not loving a rapist of my daughter? Why am I required to love even those which will cause me harm - those who I absolutely must fear? Jesus loved all sorts of criminals. I don't, and I'd presume you don't love many of them either. We're doomed, then?

Of the rules we agree upon society, "love everyone" is not one of them, nor is it realistic or healthy.

"It even manages to pollute the central question, the word I just employed, the most important word of all: the word love, by making love compulsory, by saying you MUST love. You must love your neighbour as yourself, something you can't actually do. You'll always fall short, so you can always be found guilty... If you fail in this duty, you're again a wretched sinner. This is not mentally or morally or intellectually healthy."
-Hitchens
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NASB

Saying it's impossible to love your neighbor as yourself is clearly wrong. And just because it's hard to forgive and love those who have wronged you certainly does not mean it's unhealthy for mankind. Forgiveness in difficulties is a powerful thing, and one of the greatest examples of Christ working in lives.


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Like everything else, it's open to interpretation and there are several competing explanations (covenant theology and dispensationalism for example). I'm asking what YOU believe. If I go with the first google hit, you're going to complain I'm putting words in your mouth.
It's pointless for you and I do discuss theology specifics when you don't even acknowledge the root of it all, Christ.

Also don't forget atheism is a truth claim and truth claims have the burden of proof, and to date I've found atheistic naturalism to be a weak case for reality.
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Old 10-04-2015, 11:43 PM #5852
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Seems like you were but if you've changed stances here that's fine we can put it to rest.
There are some actions that have objective net benefits for a fellow man. Some would call that moral. That's as far as I'm arguing.

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Saying it's impossible to love your neighbor as yourself is clearly wrong.
Sure. But I challenge you to name a person who loved ALL of his or her neighbors as themselves. Jesus doesn't count - he was only half man

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It's pointless for you and I do discuss theology specifics when you don't even acknowledge the root of it all
I can entertain a notion without accepting it.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
atheism is a truth claim
No it's not. I reject YOUR claim that your god exists.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NASB
And you truly believe NONE of that is subjective?



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religion is second to our innate spiritual needs
Can you give me an example of a spiritual need? I guess you'd first have to demonstrate a spirit, which is pretty damn hard to do without either wishful thinking or mind-altering chemicals.

Then you'd have to demonstrate that we can actually interact with the spiritual world.

THEN you'd have to demonstrate any spiritual needs CAN be met with physical activity.

Care to give it a try? A Nobel prize awaits
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Old 10-05-2015, 01:16 AM #5853
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Sure. But I challenge you to name a person who loved ALL of his or her neighbors as themselves. Jesus doesn't count - he was only half man
For who knows a persons thoughts except their own spirit within them? Corinthians 2:11 NIV

I do not know, but for me personally there are times when I succeed and times when I fail, but this is what I strive for.


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I can entertain a notion without accepting it.
I disagree, earlier you were unable to entertain the notions in this article.

Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus | Reasonable Faith


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No it's not. I reject YOUR claim that your god exists.
You've made it clear that you hold to the word-view that no deities exist. It contains the truth claim "No deities exist", for which you bear the burden of proof.


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Can you give me an example of a spiritual need? I guess you'd first have to demonstrate a spirit, which is pretty damn hard to do without either wishful thinking or mind-altering chemicals.

Then you'd have to demonstrate that we can actually interact with the spiritual world.

THEN you'd have to demonstrate any spiritual needs CAN be met with physical activity.

Care to give it a try? A Nobel prize awaits
Not to beat up on you Alaskan but you're always silent after Cyp offers you the Nobel prize. If your beliefs can never stand up to opposition what good are they.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:31 AM #5854
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

God is perfect.
God created man is his own image.
God created the Earth and heavens.

Yet.

Man was born into sin.

Why would the perfect God create the imperfect man in his own perfect image.

Why would this perfect God want his creations to face an eternity in hell for the sins we were all born into as crafted by the perfect God.

What the **** ???

I have heard the apple and snake story, and let me say I think it's really cute how the bible is written in little riddles that let the reader figure out what the words were meant to say, then they can think ....Oh I get it, that's what all that meant to say.
It tricks people into thinking they have learned something.


I used to hear people say they were taught to fear God at a young age.

Even more interesting about 10 years ago I house sat for a very successful man while he and his wife went on a 4 week vacation.

They had a large property with a horse stable and I fed and kept up the horses and watched over the house with my wife.

He was the main contributor and head of a small church in the area and they were both very religious and preached it all the time, even homeschooling their adopted children with much religious teachings, I observed some of it as I also did some work at their house.

However when I threw logical questions at him about bible contradictions he would defend the bible and make excuses for how much is lost in translation then in another sentence say the bible tells us exactly this and that.....huh, I figured he just wanted to believe and was in denial even though he was smart and successful.

Well while maintaining the property I used their computer/internet with their permission of course and I came across a technical manual for " teaching religion "
WOW what an eye opener, the language used was down to earth and technical as it in detail explained how the human mind worked and what was readily accepted and what would cause people to take an opposing view and why, and how to use these human traits to basically brainwash people.

Now his intentions were probably good, but I understood then how such an intelligent man appeared to be unable to face basic logic, one thing I did notice was how he never got mad when I used logic to get him crossed up into a circle, he would just smile.

Unlike people who have been taught to fear God from a young age, when my logic causes them to question their own beliefs (easy answers/security blanket) they feel threatened and get mad, at me...like I was trying to take something away from them when in fact I only want them to think for themselves.

If we ever want to truly evolve then we have to do it with the strength of personal knowledge, not by trusting in easy answers fed to us by controllers who use the bible, a book that can be used to prove a point either way depending on what they want. Kill or don't kill, depends on what they want.

Sheep of the flock, yep.
Followers...yea, that's right.

I understand the chain of command and why in the military it has to be that way, I can be a good soldier, I'm very loyal.

I can't be a mindless puppet who ignores the facts and cherry picks so called truths.

Once after a hurricane driving back from Biloxi to Atlanta I stopped at a hotel with my wife and a couple was ahead of me at the counter.
The woman was talking about how while driving she had noticed how God had spared all those trees she had seen along the way from the hurricane.

I had to ask her, why didn't god spare all those people and their homes instead of those trees?
Maybe God loves his trees but not so much us people?

She stood there with her mouth open while her husband covered his mouth laughing behind her.

Credit for everything good and absolution for anything bad, people want to believe.
It takes a stronger mind to look at all the facts and say...wait a minute.

Now I read between lines pretty well and if anyone selling a used car when asked, what's wrong with it replies, nothing really, well...there's a clue there.
Now you can pick out the part of that reply that you like and believe what you want to believe, or you can look them in the eye and ask what you really wanted to know, rather than just believing what you wanted to know.

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Old 10-05-2015, 05:22 AM #5855
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You've made it clear that you hold to the word-view that no deities exist. It contains the truth claim "No deities exist"
I live my life under the assumption that no deities exist, because none have thus far been demonstrated to exist, but I cannot know that no deities exist.

The alternative - what you suggest - is living my life under the assumption that a countless number of deities exist (because none of them have been proven to not exist), which is absurd and contradictory.

I reject your claim about a deity. I make no claims of my own on deities.

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earlier you were unable to entertain the notions in this article.
Not quite. The notion is "It's true. Prove me wrong." I've considered it, and rejected it, because that's not how evidence works. It's just another russel's teapot.


So why do you think the rules are different in the old testament?
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:02 AM #5856
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I live my life under the assumption that no deities exist, because none have thus far been demonstrated to exist, but I cannot know that no deities exist.

The alternative - what you suggest - is living my life under the assumption that a countless number of deities exist (because none of them have been proven to not exist), which is absurd and contradictory.

I reject your claim about a deity. I make no claims of my own on deities.



Not quite. The notion is "It's true. Prove me wrong." I've considered it, and rejected it, because that's not how evidence works. It's just another russel's teapot.


So why do you think the rules are different in the old testament?
The real question is do you want to hear the truth or to obscure it? I've seen you manipulate the content of the scriptures you quoted for your own means. I've also noticed you misinterpret scriptures. That's not your fault though because you haven't been properly educated.
I am willing to offer you answers to your questions but you must be willing to accept the proof and I do not believe you want to.
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