Old 09-26-2015, 07:19 AM #5825
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

No one? Many are in agreement when they join a religion and swallow their dogmas, but it doesn't make any of it real.


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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

Useless troll fighting.
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Old 09-26-2015, 07:32 AM #5826
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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This thread gives me cancer whenever i read it.
Yes we're all going to need radiation treatment after all of this

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Cancer is a major cause of death, one of the top 10 if not the top 3, many people get cancer, in a persons lifetime I think the odds are about 1 in 3 that you will get some form of cancer.
Scientist working with stem cells offer hope to us with their valuable research, I hope they are sooner rather than later successful.
I heard that there's a stem cell that can regrow limbs. Tested on rats and it seems to show promise... now where did I read that? I'll have to check my history.
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Old 09-26-2015, 08:44 PM #5827
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

LOL village idiot
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:23 PM #5828
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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LOL village idiot
It took one to create this thread. It looks like he's moved on and won't be back, perhaps he was disturbed by what he started.

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Old 09-27-2015, 08:28 AM #5829
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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LOL village idiot
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It took one to create this thread. It looks like he's moved on and won't be back, perhaps he was disturbed by what he started.

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Old 09-27-2015, 10:07 PM #5830
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
How? What benefit is there?

God gives us his rules, but none of us understand them, and it's OUR fault?
Specifically this is the question I was answering.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You've missed the important part. Regardless of whether we're speaking of the bible or not, please answer:

What good is an objective moral standard if no one can agree on what the objective moral standard is?
Although I let it go at first I would like to point out this question doesn't make much sense. An "objective moral standard" is an objective thing, it is not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice. Steel is also an objective thing. Rephrasing the question -

"What good is steel if no one can agree on what steel is?

Objectively it is steel, and whether there is agreement or not, it remains a good material for structural applications. And an objective moral standard, remains good because it is objectively good.


Now are you ever going to address this?

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I'm not trying to be repetitive, I'm just trying to keep this focused. I'll stick with your earlier example.

"bombing an abortion clinic will objectively lower the well-being of your neighbors"

Strictly within your atheistic naturalistic worldview. If someone does this, they can believe, without contradiction, these two beliefs -

1. bombing an abortion clinic will objectively lower the well-being of your neighbors
2. lowering the well-being of your neighbors is not bad

Now what I'm trying to point out here is that when you say there is an objective component to your morality, you're mistaken. There is no objective morality within the atheistic naturalistic worldview. To prove this wrong you would have to show the 'bomber" OBJECTIVELY that "lowering the well-being of your neighbors is bad". There is no objective way for you to do this.

But I'm willing to listen if you care to explain more clearly how you derive objective morality from a dictionary.
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:47 PM #5831
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Is that not a question of the definition of a word?

If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody it there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Well if you define a sound as something that a person hears...then there is actually room for debate, but it's the definition/perception of a word.

Because if the question was, If a tree falls in the woods, does it produce sound energy, then the answer has to be yes, it does as there is no reason to believe that it would not based on all observed history.

If you can not prove an abstract concept it may not be wrong, but it can't replace the proven science until there is concrete evidence.

How about if you were to set up a camera with a mic and record a tree falling with nobody around to hear it....then you have proof that it makes sound energy, the only debate is in the definition of a word.
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Old 09-28-2015, 01:19 AM #5832
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Is that not a question of the definition of a word?
Quote:
What good is an objective moral standard if no one can agree on what the objective moral standard is?
It is not. "What good is "X" if no one can agree on what "X" is?

Since "X" is stated as objective within the question. "X" is not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased. So "X" is... regardless of agreement.
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Old 09-29-2015, 02:31 AM #5833
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I see the misunderstanding here. An action that benefits humankind is good for humankind... by definition.

You don't think "good for humankind" means "morally good" necessarily, but I do. It's simply a matter of definition.

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An "objective moral standard" is an objective thing, it is not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice.
According to that definition, the bible is not objective. The meaning of the bible is undeniably, and consistently influenced by interpretations and prejudice.

While we're on the topic, would you care to explain why you think the morality of the new testament is different from the old testament? Or do you not think that's a fair statement to make?
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Old 09-29-2015, 05:27 AM #5834
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Is that not a question of the definition of a word?

If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody it there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Well if you define a sound as something that a person hears...then there is actually room for debate, but it's the definition/perception of a word.

Because if the question was, If a tree falls in the woods, does it produce sound energy, then the answer has to be yes, it does as there is no reason to believe that it would not based on all observed history.

If you can not prove an abstract concept it may not be wrong, but it can't replace the proven science until there is concrete evidence.

How about if you were to set up a camera with a mic and record a tree falling with nobody around to hear it....then you have proof that it makes sound energy, the only debate is in the definition of a word.


LOL

When the story is told with "Does it make a noise?" with no one there...the answer is no, because noise is perceived sound.

Otherwise, it DOES make a sound, but, no one is there to perceive it.


As for what is objective vs subjective, sure, people tend to consider subjective things that they believe to be, as objective.


Morals are tricky in that regard. We WANT them to be objective, and not subject to the time or place, opinion, etc....but, they always manage to creep.


Killing is wrong. Its listed as a sin....as in thou shall not do it....but, you CAN and SHOULD do it, if you do what the bible, religious leaders, and governments told people to do.

There was no asterisk on that commandment. It LOOKS objective, right?


Well, it was later INTERPRETED as REALLY MEANING that its OK to kill people you're told to by who ever is in charge and issues the interpretation.

The Pope sent off the Crusaders. Governments send off soldiers. Self defense, justifiable causes, and so forth...essentially, we (WE) added asterisks to what was an (As Listed) objective moral.


So, that would be an example of a religious moral being issued as objective, and, morphed into a subjective moral.


I'm OK with the process actually, as, if there's a Hell, soldiers should not be sent to it for doing their job...even if BOTH SIDES tell them that god was on their side, etc.

You can't have an army of conscientious objectors. (Well, they would not win too often...)


Well, if the belief was UNIVERSAL, so no one WOULD kill...there would be no wars....and governments and outraged soccer fans, etc, would have to settle differences, borders, port and resource disputes, some other way.

Unfortunately, the way of the world has been that if one side refuses to fight, the other side wins...might makes right/takes rights, etc.

So, the world is still forced to fight fire with fire, etc...you can't lay down your arms because the other guy then shoots you.



So, morals seem to be subjective, because as absolutes, they fail.

You have to simply consider what is best for mankind/the most fair course of action, in a given situation, and then consider that to be moral.

That makes a SPECIFIC moral generally subjective.


Ethics on the other hand can be quite objective, and, immoral, depending upon the circumstances.


A lawyer for example is expected, based upon ethics, to try to convince a judge/jury that a murderer is innocent.

Its immoral to lie/deceive people into thinking a guilty man didn't commit a crime. A WITNESS could be found guilty of purgery or the best friend could be guilty of obstruction of justice, etc...but the lawyer, well, its his JOB.

Is it immoral for the lawyer to follow his code of ethics?


If lawyers DIDN'T follow that code, they'd only represent innocent people....and the case would THEN be to convince the LAWYER of your guilt or innocence...well, innocence, a very messy affair.


So, in the overall scheme of things it IS moral for a lawyer to represent a guilty man, as that's what helps society the most, in the long haul.

Of course, that's an interpretation of morals, as they are afterall, subjective in real life.


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Old 09-29-2015, 02:08 PM #5835
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I see the misunderstanding here. An action that benefits humankind is good for humankind... by definition.

You don't think "good for humankind" means "morally good" necessarily, but I do. It's simply a matter of definition.
In the previously mentioned example, the "bomber" can believe without contradiction -

1. bombing an abortion clinic will benefit humanity
2. an action that benefits humankind is good for humankind

Your relying on definitions has yet to provide a basis for "objective morality"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
According to that definition, the bible is not objective. The meaning of the bible is undeniably, and consistently influenced by interpretations and prejudice.
The existence of the moon is debated in some circles, interpretations and prejudice alone to not discredit an objects objective qualities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
While we're on the topic, would you care to explain why you think the morality of the new testament is different from the old testament? Or do you not think that's a fair statement to make?
Since you seem interested in discussing this feel free to explain your beliefs on morality in the new and old testaments.
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Old 09-29-2015, 03:51 PM #5836
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Duke,

I think morality is subjective not objective.

The objective version would not need interpretation, as that's where the problem seems to occur.

So, most would understand that the concept of morality is to do what is right.

As in your clinic bomber example...the bomber essentially starts with Thou shall not kill, interprets that to include a fetus, and interprets that to not include doctors who kill fetuses.

So, they subjectuvely decide what to do about the thou shall not kill issue....by killing those who kill.


I would tender that they were potentially acting in the best interests of mankind, and felt justified in their actions. I also feel that their actions were wrong, and that their interpretations were wrong.


When in the old testament god told people what to do, and it included genocide, murdering babies, etc..,, it was the same god referenced in the new testament.

It was not God 2.0.....it was still God 1.0

The morality of the old testament is the morality of what Christianity calls god.

They reject god's morality in testament 1.0, and declare it valid in testament 2.0.

If morality is objective, god was either immoral and then corrected his flaws, or, morality in the bible is simply subjective....as in, well, back then, it was normal/ok...but NOW.....

And so forth.


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Old 09-30-2015, 04:26 AM #5837
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
In the previously mentioned example, the "bomber" can believe without contradiction -

1. bombing an abortion clinic will benefit humanity
They'd be wrong. You know they're wrong, and I know they're wrong, so why question it? Do you really want me to explain how bombing an abortion clinic does not benefit humanity?

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
The existence of the moon is debated in some circles, interpretations and prejudice alone to not discredit an objects objective qualities.
What is an example of an objective moral truth from your bible?

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Since you seem interested in discussing this feel free to explain your beliefs on morality in the new and old testaments.
You know what I believe - that they were written by bronze age goat herders, not a supreme deity.

I'm curious what you think about the sudden change of pace between the sections. You wouldn't advocate for slavery, you eat shellfish, work on the Sabbath, and mix fabrics. I'm assuming you don't take many moral lessons from the old testament, but I'd like to know why.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:06 PM #5838
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Not to change the subject but I have a theory, I don't want to offend anyone but here's my theory.

I theorize that the virgin Marry....hold on to your hats now....I theorize that she had intercourse with a man.
Now I know this goes against the immaculate conception thing, but my contributing factors are:
#1 Humans are naturally driven to have intercourse.
#2 Humans often lie when they have done something that's looked down on by their piers. Ń
#3 Mary was a Human.

I also have a new definition of mass confusion.
Fathers day at the trailer park.

Its an interesting idea. As gods have been impregnating humans throughout recorded history, which we call mythology when its someone else's religion, its already pretty commonplace.

If human, jesus would have his mom's and dad's genes.

If the y chromosome was missing, jesus = jessy

: )


If jesus = guy, then god gave him a y chromosome, etc.

If Jesus = God, then he wasn't human.

If Jesus was god, he could not die, including for the sin of not obeying himself.

Its a mythological mess.

: )



Bronze age guys didn't know much about hiw things worked. An Afghani guy brought his wife to a doctor to see what was wrong with her, as she was not giving him babies.

The doctor examined her, and found she was a virgin.

Apparently the husband was missing something. (By an inch or so)

: )

Last edited by Teej; 09-30-2015 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:01 PM #5839
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Old 10-03-2015, 01:23 AM #5840
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
They'd be wrong. You know they're wrong, and I know they're wrong, so why question it? Do you really want me to explain how bombing an abortion clinic does not benefit humanity?
I agree it is wrong. What I'm trying to get at here is within the "atheistic naturalistic" worldview, there is no objective morality. The "bomber" could have some justification for how he believes it's good for humanity, or the "bomber" can hold the belief that consciousness and humanity arose due to random events and contains no purpose, ultimately nothing matters, so he does whatever he feels like and lives for himself.

If he holds to "atheistic naturalism" as true, what possible objective reason could you give him to serve the good of humanity and to not live every moment of his life to please himself.


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What is an example of an objective moral truth from your bible?
"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you." - John 15:12


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You know what I believe - that they were written by bronze age goat herders, not a supreme deity.

I'm curious what you think about the sudden change of pace between the sections. You wouldn't advocate for slavery, you eat shellfish, work on the Sabbath, and mix fabrics. I'm assuming you don't take many moral lessons from the old testament, but I'd like to know why.
Slavery talked about in the context of the bible is very different from the what we think of slavery today. It's more like employment than slavery from U.S. history. I encourage you to research this and to also look up what it meant when Jesus said he "Fulfilled" the law. Then these thing will make sense to you.
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