Old 09-25-2015, 07:45 AM #5793
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
God will not bend to our will, but we can learn and become gods ourselves, but not until we let go of our imaginary friends hand and learn understand and control ourselves.
Are you trying to provoke arguments here? I suggest you choose your words more carefully.

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
people watch their leaders lie cheat and steal on the news but will not lift a finger.
Sadly apathy leads to dependency, just like now as we need public healthcare and Wal-Mart workers get food stamps because their pay is not enough.
Dependency as a famous writer once said is the velvet glove that bondage slips it's ready hand.
Human religion is all about control.
God is something completely different.
You're talking about socialism, not religion.

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Old 09-25-2015, 08:17 AM #5794
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Laser Chick View Post
I am objective, have a large science background but am also Roman Catholic. I see a need for organized religion to help third world countries and people throughout the world including the USA.)
I see a need for people to help people but I don't see a helpful need that only can be served by religion. There are many secular charities in Central and South America such as Latin American Foundation for the Future
My wife and I have worked for and with L.A.F.F. There are many others.
Yes religions do good works in these countries but there is a dark side as well that too many people have no idea about. You may choose to only see the good and thats understandable but the darkness is there.

Do any of you live or have ever lived in any 2nd and 3rd world countries? I have. Mexico, Guatemala and Peru. I saw some good things being done by the Catholic church there but I also saw a lot of suffering directly caused by the church. Actually un-imaginable suffering;

-denying contraception and condoms to men and woman even making them illegal in some areas making the spread of HIV and AIDS that much worse which could have been drastically reduced by a simple condom. Just in case anyone wants to victim blame for being immoral and having premarital s*x. Maybe check out how many babies are born and die from AIDS every year in these countries where contraception is difficult and even impossible to acquire by abstinence only order from the Roaman Catholic Church.

-The covering up and knowingly allowing the rape of hundreds if not thousands of innocent children. Many orphans and disabled children raped under the protection The Roman Catholic Church. Inhuman and disgusting. The Vatican knew and allowed this for decades and probably centuries unless child rape is a new trend in this century.

-women being pressured by the church to marry the men that raped and impregnated them as to not have the family of the survivor's shamed by a baby born out of wedlock. Not talking about a single incident BTW, notice the plural tenses used. In Peru, a country run more by the Vatican than the Peruvians, if a woman/survivor, agrees to marry her accuser, then charges of rape are often dropped and no trial or even hearing held. The woman "has the right" to refuse but is often times strongly pressured to consent. Who is it that you think is applying this pressure?

My wife also worked for and I assisted in building a library and computer room for a girls center that I can not name as to protect the anonymity and safety of the children there. It was a home for girls between the ages of 10-18 that were forced to carry and birth babies of rape. This beautiful SECULAR charity housed, clothed, and fed, but more importantly, they taught these children how to care for their own babies even thought most of them were just children themselves. Often times the rapist was a family member, so the child was not allowed to return to the home. Is anyone putting 2 and 2 together here? The child was not safe to be in her own home because the rapist family member was never charged or even taken away. Its merely a domestic concern.

Maybe some of you can begin to understand the source of my disdain of and for organized religions? I have spent too many sleepless nights wondering where was the Church to defend these girls, some as young as 11, so they could go home? Better yet, where was God?

People only see the pictures of ISIS beheadings as the darker side of religions. What you don't see I have. It is right in your back yard not just in the middle east. Police your own institutions and people like me will go away. Stop living in denial that evil is only done by terrorists and perpetrated by individuals. The Catholic Church causes more suffering than ISIS or Al Quada ever could in 2 more lifetimes. But people only see what they want to see because it makes them feel better, and the thought that the wagons they hitched their horses to, could never be the source of so much suffering.
Often times they are. Not all of them but some.

Most churches across America are filled with some of the kindest, and loving people I have ever met. But they don't see that religious privilege is what allows the evil institutions to continue these atrocities and they don't see that they play a part in it. Some of you may even fund it with your own money. My war is not against you, or your God, or even your beliefs although that is often what I go after. The firebrand atheists fight is against religions stronghold on power and special treatment in this world. The very power that causes so many to suffer. Don't believe the crazy anti-religious, two-faced, whacko on a laser forum. Look it up yourself and decide if my experiences are accurate and common. Take a minute to stop feeling so attacked and possibly see that suffering allowed to happen BEACAUSE of religious privilege in our world. Don't think I am asking you to give up your faith, I am asking you to do your part and fight for equality so this kind of stuff can not be allowed to continue.

I served my country at 18 in a time of war. I continue to serve my world against the powers that inflict suffering. If you get your feelings hurt by my words in a debate you chose to partake in, I have only so much sympathy because the things some of you defend make your offense look laughable and minor in comparison.

Hence I will choose to partially disagree with Laserchics statement and prefer my opening one. That there is need for help in these countries but considering the insidious baggage that comes along with the help I can not agree that the church is the best we can do as a society.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:32 AM #5795
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Are you trying to provoke arguments here? I suggest you choose your words more carefully.
Alan
No I am not trying to provoke anything but thought, no one needs to be offended.

That was part of a concept that I had, that being if someone told a psychiatrist about someone they could not physically see, yet knew loved them and they talked to and was right there in the room with them, that that psychiatrist may think that person was delusional....that is until they said the invisible someone in the room was Jesus.

It's just something to think about, and if anyone feels provoked or angry then they should ask themselves why they feel that way.

Another thought that got me going was Noah's ark.
God loved us all so much that he drown everyone except Noah, his wife and children.
So.....and don't be offended, but does that mean that we are all the products of Noah's family, products of inbreeding and possibly incest?
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Old 09-25-2015, 01:47 PM #5796
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Yes entirely true. What does modifying DNA and inserting it into an existing bacteria have to do with creating life?

Sure we can genetically alter existing life, or even combine two different species into something new, like the spyder goats they are now using to make something called BioSteel, an abomination if there ever was one.



Not very many of what is required, I think they have a long way to go. I am not interested in what "could have" or "may have" or unproven theories. Someone needs to demonstrate a simple single cell organism forming in the equivalent of a natural environment.



If you had done some reading you would see there isn't any point to this thread.

Alan
Haha, no point I would've guessed. Silly question. Anyways, seems to me they didn't just modify the DNA sequence of the bacterium, as genetic modification is cutting out and inserting genes, as well as triggering other alleles,of a certain desired gene. This is different from the usual modifying, we wrote our entire new DNA code. Its just we started out with the E.Coli DNA code because things are going to have to be similar anyways in order for the DNA to work, and there's no point in completely rewriting it. And the bacteria we inserted it into wasn't alive, it was simply a dead emptied out shell, the cell membrane of a past bacteria. To give the new DNA a home. It would be like if you made your own laser diode, driver, heat sink, etc. and put it into an old emptied out flashlight host. I would still argue you made the laser. Furthermore, just a few months ago we even made our own cell membrane from artificial materials and processes. Here's the link, pretty neat: Scientists Create Synthetic Membranes That Grow Like Living Cells
Insert the human made DNA sequence in the human made cell wall, and we have ourselves a human made cell I believe. You're right still, we have a long way to go in the sense of how DIFFICULT it was to make all these. As well as money
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:26 PM #5797
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Cyparagon you really twist and inject a lot of things that are not said or implied. That is one of the main reasons why I did not even want to post anything.

> Kindly tell me where I said that ONLY religion can help?
Of course different entities, organizations or people can work towards helping people.

> Nowhere did I claim that Christianity was the first to come up with/propose that saying

> You are correct. I just feel weird and it goes against how I live to treat people badly.

> Eye for an Eye, that is correct. I am nice to you, hopefully you are nice to me. You come busting through my door at night and mean harm to my loved ones. I am not going to be passive and allow you to hurt my loved ones.


@ nwfreefly I am well aware of these things but not in the detail that you do. Blood has been on many peoples hands for centuries. The crusades, priests and little boys and so on like the atrocities that you listed. My head is NOT in the sand. Without sounding sappy, the world IS a better place with the kindness, efforts and actions of you and people like you. We might not approach the goal the same but I feel we both have compassion for those in need. Keep doing what your doing!
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:55 PM #5798
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
inserting DNA into an existing cell is far from creating life.
I think you missed the part where the DNA was sequenced, and the cell replicates. "Far from creating life"? I'm beginning to think even if an entire cell was created in the lab you wouldn't consider it creating life.

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Originally Posted by Laser Chick View Post
Kindly tell me where I said that ONLY religion can help?
That's sort of implied here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser Chick View Post
I see a need for organized religion to help third world countries
Instead of saying third world countries need help, you say organized religion needs to help them.

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Originally Posted by Laser Chick View Post
Nowhere did I claim that Christianity was the first to come up with/propose that saying
Right. But that's where you picked it up.

Don't get defensive and don't take it personally. Let's not get into a "I didn't SAY you SAID that I SAID that" exchange. I offered a comment. I didn't say you were in opposition to the comment.

Quote:
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Eye for an Eye, that is correct.
And how does that fit in with the "turn the other cheek" passages for you?
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Old 09-25-2015, 04:30 PM #5799
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

That was off of the mindset of some that religion is not needed at all. Then again there are charitable organizations that are secular also.

No, I clearly stated it is a facet of how I live, not who came up with it.

"eye for an eye" verses "turn the other cheek" is a very tough one indeed but there is not an absolute and this one has a massive amount of gray area and I myself feel that is case by case based on the level of the offense. Say a person stealing some food to feed their family verses a serial rapist who has raped 12 people already and is not responding to rehabilitation as they keep raping every time they are release from prison.

Lets use a modern day example shall we. When the traffic light turns green you go no matter what ("eye for an eye" or "turn the other cheek" only). Well here comes a big truck who lost their brakes and their going to go through the red light. You see them coming but you want it all black and white so you must go because the light is green and it is an absolute. Well bye bye because the truck just hit you per no gray area ("eye for an eye" or "turn the other cheek" only)
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Old 09-25-2015, 05:02 PM #5800
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Another thought that got me going was Noah's ark.
God loved us all so much that he drown everyone except Noah, his wife and children.
So.....and don't be offended, but does that mean that we are all the products of Noah's family, products of inbreeding and possibly incest?
I don't believe for a second that we are all descendants from only 8 people in only several thousand years since the flood. How could we have all the different races? White, oriental, black, etc. of course I could be wrong.

This requires a lengthy explanation, I don't have time to go looking things up or to write a book to explain, but I'll try to cover the basics. As you all know, not all Christians agree on some things, the reason for this is partly because the bible is incomplete, there are some details and history that are missing, also the translation into other languages changes parts of the text enough that the original meaning can be lost. I am going to bring up some items that are controversial among us Christians, am not claiming what's true or not, just throwing out there the possibilities.

First of all what was the reason for the flood? The Nephilim AKA the sons of God came to earth and discovered that the daughters of humans were very fair and took and married any of them they chose. This story or history can be found elsewhere, for example those gods that lived on Mt. Olympus who also mated with humans and gave birth to beings that were half God and half human. Apparently also either not all of them died in the flood, or there was a second influx of them later. These Nephilim must have been physical biological beings to be capable of mating with humans, and capable of being killed, so I am not buying the idea that they were supernatural in some way. They also came from somewhere else. Who were they? We don't know.

I guess we are the planet of really hot women, maybe we shouldn't be transmiting p0rn by satellite.



I hope their women don't look like that or I can understand why they would come here.

Anyway back on topic, let's also remember that warning in the New Testament about the last days of this earth age, "as it was in the days of Noah so it shall be then", I won't bother to speculate right now on what this could be saying. So what may have happened was that these Nephilim polluted our gene pool with their DNA and over time the earth became populated with human-Nephilim hybrids, let's say that only Noah's family and maybe a few others were still 100% human, and this was interfering with God's plan for earth and us humans.

Now let's go back to all the different races for a moment, where did they all come from? There are 3 possibilities, one is that yes they are all descendants from only 8 people (Noah's family). Two, they were created at the Tower of Babel, when God confused our languages he also changed us into different races. Three, they are the humans from the sixth day creation. Let's examine number three, a majority of Christians wrongly believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans, the bible clearly says otherwise. Here is a quote from the sixth day:

26Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Ok Adam and Eve weren't created until the 8th day, so who were these humans from the sixth day creation? Were they Neanderthals and other primitive man that later died out? Or could this have been when all the races were created? But wait, how can that be? This was long before the flood. Well this doesn't necessarily conflict with the flood story. Noah and his family are the only people mentioned, but it also doesn't say he just took two of every animal, if you look it up in the original Hebrew it says he took aboard the ark two of every flesh, and this word used doesn't necessarily mean animals. So what I am suggesting here is that in addition to Noah's family there may have been two people of every race.

Now let's consider the flood itself and the ark, there are some different possibilities:

1) As I am sure some of you would like to think, maybe it never happened.

2) The flood happened just as described and we are all descendants of only 8 people.

3) As I suggested, there were 2 people of every race aboard the ark in addition to Noah's family.

4) The flood wasn't global and parts of the earth remained above ground and many peoples survived.

5) Maybe the flood story was told in such a way as to get the basic idea across but isn't quite correct because people wouldn't be able to understand what really happened.

Let's consider number 5. What if people, animals, plants, insects, etc. were taken from the earth and kept somewhere until the disaster was over and then were returned to earth. This doesn't seem so far fetched when you consider the story of the prophet Elijah taken away in a fiery chariot, then they sent 50 men out to search for him for three days, or that thing Ezekiel saw that God spoke to him from. Could people make up things like that way back then?

That's all I am going to say on that subject, that should give you something to think about.

Alan
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:45 PM #5801
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You're missing the point entirely. This was a statement on how humanity doesn't understand God's will, and you've turned it into a personal attack. Again.
You're statement of humanity not understanding God's will is wrong. I don't care if you think the truth is a personal attack. You bring nothing to this conversation but personal attacks and you are a waste of space.

You don't even have the desire to learn of God's purposes anyway so why fake like you care anyway?

How old are you btw? Are you one of the 13-15 year old members? Because that would make sense.
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Old 09-25-2015, 10:59 PM #5802
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
You're statement of humanity not understanding God's will is wrong. I don't care if you think the truth is a personal attack. You bring nothing to this conversation but personal attacks and you are a waste of space.

You don't even have the desire to learn of God's purposes anyway so why fake like you care anyway?

How old are you btw? Are you one of the 13-15 year old members? Because that would make sense.
Are you saying 15 year old members can't positively contribute to a conversation on LPF?
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:08 PM #5803
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
Are you saying 15 year old members can't positively contribute to a conversation on LPF?
No that's not what I'm saying
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:17 PM #5804
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Alright. You dislike Cyp, and you dislike his points of view. You take a jab at his behaviour, saying it would make sense to you that he is 13-15 years old. This is saying that in your eyes, all 13-15 year old posters annoy you and are worthless to a conversation, as this is how you see cyp. Please don't take this as "oh the community is harassing me" again, I'm simply inquiring about what you said in a respectful manner.
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Last edited by Gabe; 09-25-2015 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 09-25-2015, 11:52 PM #5805
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
You bring nothing to this conversation but personal attacks
It's interesting you should say that, and then follow that up with

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
you are a waste of space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Are you one of the 13-15 year old members?
Doesn't that seem at least a little bit hypocritical to you? Maybe just a little bit?
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:25 AM #5806
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
Alright. You dislike Cyp, and you dislike his points of view. You take a jab at his behaviour, saying it would make sense to you that he is 13-15 years old. This is saying that in your eyes, all 13-15 year old posters annoy you and are worthless to a conversation, as this is how you see cyp. Please don't take this as "oh the community is harassing me" again, I'm simply inquiring about what you said in a respectful manner.
Uh I never ever said that the community is harassing me so I don't know where you got that.
Gabe you're taking something I said and have manipulated it into something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
It's interesting you should say that, and then follow that up with

Doesn't that seem at least a little bit hypocritical to you? Maybe just a little bit?
You're the king of hypocrisy so you would know more than anyone here.
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:44 AM #5807
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisibleGreen View Post
Uh I never ever said that the community is harassing me so I don't know where you got that.
Gabe you're taking something I said and have manipulated it into something else.
No, but I remember when there was a debacle, so you removed your avatar and in your sig you said something along the lines of "beware of the online harassment typical in this community". I was simply trying to avoid getting you heated.
If you're talking about my last comment, about you and how you feel about fifteen year olds and twisting your words, please don't pull that card. I was making logical steps to reach a conclusion, and tried to make it as clear as possible. If you're regarding you talking about harassment and me twisting your words on that, thank you for accepting my point, not addressing it, and moving on
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:27 AM #5808
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

We made up

Last edited by VisibleGreen; 09-26-2015 at 03:05 AM. Reason: updated info
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