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Old 09-22-2015, 04:03 AM #5761
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Well that really depends on the "bomber" doesn't it.
I can already show the bomber that lowering the well-being of your fellow man is objectively bad. I've already done that to you. It's a simple matter of definition.

He may not accept it, but the same can be said for his denying of your bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Again, the answers for this varies greatly depending on the circumstances.
Pick a scenario. Be creative.

If you can't, just answer this and leave the bible out of it: what good is an objective moral standard if no one can agree on what the objective moral standard is?


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Old 09-22-2015, 07:30 AM #5762
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're going to have to go deeper and explain your premise for declaring a book that presents an objective moral framework is subjective. You're not making sense with this statement.

But perhaps from your perspective this does make sense, morals are subjective when you deny the truth in the Bible and hold to an atheist naturalistic worldview. Your subjective view of the Bible just furthers this point.
Duke,
There are no such things as objective morality. Its one of the made up Christian chew toys you guys just can't let go of like a dog' to a Kong. There are no "Ultimate Truths" or "Objective Morality". All morality is subjective. There isn't even absolute certainty. Every scientist, philosopher, or any brain that has taken 10 min to ponder this thought clearly will realize, we can not be absolutely certain about just about anything. Christians really need ultimate's, and absolutes to sell and defend their shtick.

There are two ways apologist try defend that Christian morality is objective and derived from God. Both fail miserably.

Option 1- Divine command, aka, simply asserting Whatever God commands is moral with nothing to back it up. Basically blindly stating "morality is derived from God" (sticks fingers in ears and repeats nah nah nah nah, can't hear you)
Flaws in this reasoning- should be obvious and nothing more than "my daddy can beat up your daddy" playground BS.

Option 2- Biblical authority. Argue that it is from the almighty Bible, aka, the word of God, that our morality is derived.
Flaws in this reasoning- For starters its a circular argument so therefore is one big fat fallacious pile of crap.
I get my morality from the Bible and I know the Bible is moral because it says so.





edited to add-[I]
And let me save you some time before you point out the obvious. No I am not your fictitious "absolutely certain" that subjective morality is all that exists.
-The closest we can come to anything is reasonable degrees of certainty ie 99.9% certain because of things such as Solipsism.
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:00 PM #5763
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I can already show the bomber that lowering the well-being of your fellow man is objectively bad. I've already done that to you. It's a simple matter of definition.
You definitely have not show how morality is objective within atheistic naturalism. Remember.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm not trying to be repetitive, I'm just trying to keep this focused. I'll stick with your earlier example.

"bombing an abortion clinic will objectively lower the well-being of your neighbors"

Strictly within your atheistic naturalistic worldview. If someone does this, they can believe, without contradiction, these two beliefs -

1. bombing an abortion clinic will objectively lower the well-being of your neighbors
2. lowering the well-being of your neighbors is not bad

Now what I'm trying to point out here is that when you say there is an objective component to your morality, you're mistaken. There is no objective morality within the atheistic naturalistic worldview. To prove this wrong you would have to show the 'bomber" OBJECTIVELY that "lowering the well-being of your neighbors is bad". There is no objective way for you to do this.
But I'm willing to listen if you care to explain more clearly how you derive objective morality from a dictionary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Pick a scenario. Be creative.
Here is my reverse ask - How about you do this? Because again.... "I will tell you what's true and try to point you in the right direction but you've demonstrated an unwillingless and lack of effort in striving toward having a meaninful discussion. I am not going to continue reciprocating effort for habitual non-effort with you."


Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
There are no "Ultimate Truths"
Is that an ultimate truth? Because if it is true then your claim that their are no ultimate truths can't be true even though it claims to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
There isn't even absolute certainty.
Are you certain of that statement?

How do you support these two claims, they are self defeating.


Also your counter arguments for Christian morality are wrong.
1) "Should be Obvious" isn't a counter argument
2) It is not circular, and articles on Biblical authority that explains this are easy to find.
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:17 PM #5764
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Is that an ultimate truth? Because if it is true then your claim that their are no ultimate truths can't be true even though it claims to be true.



Are you certain of that statement?

How do you support these two claims, they are self defeating.
Duke are you serious here? Did you not read this part of my reply that would have saved this wasted time.
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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
edited to add-[I]
And let me save you some time before you point out the obvious. No I am not your fictitious "absolutely certain" that subjective morality is all that exists.
-The closest we can come to anything is reasonable degrees of certainty ie 99.9% certain because of things such as Solipsism.
Thats exactly why I included it! It is a truth statement. There is no such thing as ultimate truths that is your made up Christian BS. Now there are varying degrees of truth and certainty but there is no ultimate or absolutes. Those are simply made up concepts with nothing to back them up. Kind of like your God.

Not to be attacking please take my words as literal and not casual but the above quote from you is the most ignorant thing I have seen you write in this debate so far. I am NOT calling you ignorant. I happen to respect that you have done some research on this topic but the above is absurd.
By your won words above you are asking a person that rejects the concept and existence of Absolutes and Ultimates if their statement is the very thing they reject. To go a step deeper into ignorance, your words directly imply that a thing can not be true unless its Ultimate Truth. Wowzers, that one your going to have a really hard time finding even a fellow apologist to agree with. So the statement "apples are fruit" do you agree with this truth statement? Does that statement have to be an absolute truth for it to be true? According to your reasoning above it does.
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Old 09-23-2015, 12:00 AM #5765
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Duke are you serious here? Did you not read this part of my reply that would have saved this wasted time.

Thats exactly why I included it! It is a truth statement. There is no such thing as ultimate truths that is your made up Christian BS. Now there are varying degrees of truth and certainty but there is no ultimate or absolutes. Those are simply made up concepts with nothing to back them up. Kind of like your God.
Quote:
The closest we can come to anything is reasonable degrees of certainty
This statement is just "There isn't even absolute certainty." repeated. It does not pass the "law of non-contradiction"

If you can never be certain, then how are you certain Jesus isn't the messiah?

Your views must then allow the the possibility for Christianity to be true, and in light of solid evidence for Jesus's resurrection, how can you make positive claims against it?

You're also beginning to appeal to ridicule which isn't a truth seeking practice.
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Old 09-23-2015, 12:15 AM #5766
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Added this while you were replying so want you to se it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
Not to be attacking please take my words as literal and not casual but the above quote from you is the most ignorant thing I have seen you write in this debate so far. I am NOT calling you ignorant. I happen to respect that you have done some research on this topic but the above is absurd.
By your won words above you are asking a person that rejects the concept and existence of Absolutes and Ultimates if their statement is the very thing they reject. To go a step deeper into ignorance, your words directly imply that a thing can not be true unless its Ultimate Truth. Wowzers, that one your going to have a really hard time finding even a fellow apologist to agree with. So the statement "apples are fruit" do you agree with this truth statement? Does that statement have to be an absolute truth for it to be true? According to your reasoning above it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
This statement is just "There isn't even absolute certainty." repeated. It does not pass the "law of non-contradiction"

If you can never be certain, then how are you certain Jesus isn't the messiah?

You views must then allow the the possibility for Christianity to be true, and in light of solid evidence for Jesus's resurrection, how can you make certain claims against it?
I am not certain Jesus isn't the son of God. I never have not once in all 365 pages of this debate will you ever see me make a claim of certainty in the formal context about the non existence of God or like topics. You are the one adding certainty to my words and opinions not me. The're are 2 reasons for this. One deal's with agnosticism, the other with things like Hard Solipsism. So I can not even say I am absolutely certain that I even exists.
For starters if I make make the claim that no gods exists, I would shoulder the burden of proof. When I reject your claim that a god exists, I make no counter claims at all. Certain or un certain doesnt matter I simply reject your claims on the grounds they have not meet the burden of proof. Those making positive claims accept the burden of proving such claims. "No Gods exists" is a positive claim.


Look Duke, is it really this hard for you to understand the very basic concept o the world we live in contains only levels of certainty? If its this hard of a concept then you have not done anywhere near the reading and understanding of the topic to be debating it because your words show you don't have a clue and are all over the place. You don't know what you are talking about. You are confusing Absolute Truths/ Certainty, with something being absolutely true or someone being absolutely certain.

Problem 1- Cart before the horse and circular reasoning
Theists like yourself claim that the Ultimates come from God then use them as evidence for the God they claim exists. If we really wanted to get strict about this in philosophical and logical terms, you can not even begin to claim Absolute Anything's CAN even exists until you show that the source you claim they come from exists!
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:02 AM #5767
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You've missed the important part. Regardless of whether we're speaking of the bible or not, please answer:

What good is an objective moral standard if no one can agree on what the objective moral standard is?
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:12 AM #5768
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You've missed the important part. Regardless of whether we're speaking of the bible or not, please answer:

What good is an objective moral standard if no one can agree on what the objective moral standard is?
Obviously not very great.

But what else is there? Opinions make us human, no?
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:31 AM #5769
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
-that is your made up Christian BS
-one big fat fallacious pile of crap
-Its one of the made up Christian chew toys you guys just can't let go of like a dog' to a Kong
It strikes me as very strange that you would say you don't mean to offend me, yet you choose to refer to by beliefs in such a way and compare me to a dog. And yes I did see some of your pre-edited assumptions about me in that last post. I try not to make unjust assumptions about people, but ridicule attempts to manipulate mind and emotions without actual substance. It's not a mark of someone seeking or sincerely sharing truth, but I then again I hardly know you.

I do not take to self defeating statements which I have already pointed out, but since they make sense to you I'm interested in seeing your reasoning. So explain it, link it or whatever. I'm kinda spread thin right now but I would try to make time for some reading.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You've missed the important part. Regardless of whether we're speaking of the bible or not, please answer:

What good is an objective moral standard if no one can agree on what the objective moral standard is?
Still good, the people are the issue.
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:38 AM #5770
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Duke, why not quote my words within the context they were used?

This is a debate about the most important question that has ever been asked. You're in this debate because you enjoy it as do I. If you don't enjoy reading harsh criticisms of God, religion, and your beliefs, then you should stop replying and reading it because that's what this thread has been for a few hundred pages. I am very careful. I will not attack the individual person, but your beliefs are fair game for the reasons I have already reminded you of 2 times in the 5 days I have been back on LPF. I never said I won't offend you in this debate. I said, I do not intend to offend you. If attacking your beliefs is offensive, well...you're going to be offended quite a bit because thats what I am doing.

If I said, "Duke, your a freaking A-hole and stupid", that is attacking YOU. If I say, "Duke that statement you just made is ignorant and the type of BS heard often from Christians". That is not attacking the person.
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---End Quote---
I noticed his true colors the more I read. He claims to not attack the person but rather the argument but in reality that isn't true at all.
Some people are just like that. Twofaced. Image: http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/ohwell.gif
Twofaced. Isn't that a bit hypocritical and actually a personal attack?


I compared Christian stubbornness with a dog and its chew toy. If that's so offensive, then you aren't cut out for the Great Debate. And yes, I think Christian beliefs are absurd. I have said so many times. Obviously I think they are wrong or I wouldn't be debating you so that really should not be a big surprise.
Christian BS on the other hand is different. Christian BS, is the crap you guys try to get over on the world and pass as logical or rational or real. ie Objective morality, Ultimate truths, creationism, claiming we are borrowing from your world view, ext. Although personally I may think your beliefs could be described as BS, that's not what I was referring to nor would that be attacking YOU even if it was.

I think gods, demons, and prophets are a nothing more than myths. Myths we are out growing as a species. A fairy tale. A way ancient peoples kept some glimmer of hope alive in a world so cruel and unfair it was hard to even get up off the dirt each morning let alone fathom living 40-50 more years. A story able to make sense and console a grieving parent who's innocent child was just horribly killed in a freak accident or consumed by plague. An alternative to peoples own mortality and fear of death. A way to live forever.

Nobody likes that we die. Nobody likes the amount of suffering present in our world. Nobody likes that evil is often left un-punished and even rewarded in our reality. It sucks. But that's life, suck it up buttercup.
You don't like it? Change it. Change what you can. Leave this world a little better than you came into it. Believe in yourself more. It blows my mind when I hear Christians say to me "I have no idea how I would cope without my God". "I wouldn't have anything to live for"
I find that incredibly sad. I also find it untrue.

The Great Debate begins and will continue for many more century's but it will eventually end.
Some say the internet is where religion has come to die.

I will leave the thread once again. Maybe Ill pop back by but doubt I will engage. So everyone can be all happy and hug, The mean man is gone.....lol.
BUT.....

Answer Cyp's question. What good is objective morality if nobody knows or agrees on what that is?
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:48 AM #5771
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 09-23-2015, 07:54 AM #5772
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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There's plenty more where that came from. I don't know what ad hominem means nor do I care to find out but keep talking, it's entertaining to me now.
VG, ad hominem means an attack or arguement directed against the person rather than their points of view, arguments, or position. It's actually good advice, if you want your opinions to be respected and properly argued against, you should stick to the subject at hand rather than jabbing at your opponent
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Old 09-23-2015, 09:12 AM #5773
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you want your opinions to be respected and properly argued against, you should avoid the trolling and the offensive statements meant to provoke and insult over 2 Billion people. The insults if not directed at one person are certainly directed at all Christians as well as Muslims and Jews.

I would like to remind everyone here that by far most of the many thousands of people visiting LPF are guests, only a very small number are members. At the bottom of the home page at this moment it says: Currently Active Users: 18822 (231 members and 18591 guests). Everytime this thread comes up in the latest posts don't you think many of those guests will take a look at it? And some of you sometimes wonder why there aren't more active members and why there aren't more donations. I sometimes see athiests leaving hostile comments all over the Internet, but I have never seen a thread like this that is mostly unmoderated, I participated in similar discussion a few years ago on a couple of other sites but it was a lot different. Just something you all should think about.

Now let's move on to something different. Yesterday afternoon Pope Francis arrived in the U.S. While he is here he will address a joint session of congress, meet with the U.N. General assembly, and hold mass at Madison square garden, no doubt that will annoy the hell out of some of you to no end.



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Old 09-23-2015, 06:13 PM #5774
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
If you want your opinions to be respected and properly argued against, you should avoid the trolling and the offensive statements meant to provoke and insult over 2 Billion people. The insults if not directed at one person are certainly directed at all Christians as well as Muslims and Jews.

I would like to remind everyone here that by far most of the many thousands of people visiting LPF are guests, only a very small number are members. At the bottom of the home page at this moment it says: Currently Active Users: 18822 (231 members and 18591 guests). Everytime this thread comes up in the latest posts don't you think many of those guests will take a look at it? And some of you sometimes wonder why there aren't more active members and why there aren't more donations. I sometimes see athiests leaving hostile comments all over the Internet, but I have never seen a thread like this that is mostly unmoderated, I participated in similar discussion a few years ago on a couple of other sites but it was a lot different. Just something you all should think about.

Alan
Im sorry Alan but your 2 posts on this page exemplify exactly why I say the things I say. Religious privilege. Its fine you for to put up memes comparing a person that accept the facts, evolution, to an ape pissing in its own mouth, but when I call Christian beliefs absurd somehow I am the one scaring away new member's and insulting billions of people. This is exactly the religious privilege that fire brand atheists are done conceding to. Only the feeling of the religious matter.

If a person believed in talking snakes and donkeys, humans rising from the dead, oceans parting with a magic staff, but it was not religious based, we would of coarse say that is absurd. But when it is faith based its somehow off limits and supposed to be respected. I respect ideas and beliefs that are respectable. If a person believes something absurd and that belief has a very negative effect on human equality you bet I am going to challenge that belief. If you don't like it, tough.

You don't like it then clean up your own pond. Police your own groups from the suffering they cause and people like me will go away.

IMO its a personal problem some of you may have, not being able to separate yourselves from your beliefs, and again that's not my problem. How is it I have very fine relationships and friendships with people of devout faith on LPF and in life? Because unlike some people here, I separate the person from the beliefs as do they. They are mature enough to know that my thinking their beliefs are absurd does not mean I think they are stupid, or weak, or personally absurd. I understand a person beliefs are complicated and many facets of why they have them. I know its not that simple which is why I can have zero respect for their beliefs but a lot of respect for them as a person.

If you come into this room, new member or not, you signed up for it and if you live in the year 2015, and are surprised to find some tough critique in topic called "Religion" then you are naive.

Bottom line, I will go as I said I would but no way I was going to let your hypocrisy go un-answered. The anti atheist and evolution memes have been just as many as the opposite. Its just your Christian privilege that makes you think those are okay and the world should be expected to not take offense. I am here to remind you equal means equality.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:28 PM #5775
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Do you not see your own hypocrisy nwfreefly. I called you out on "appealing to ridicule" and you defended it, now you're calling Pi R out on "appealing to ridicule" and you're calling it "not ok".

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Duke, why not quote my words within the context they were used?
To keep the post short and focused, I wasn't manipulating context, we can all go a page back and see it. Calling beliefs BS, reasoning crap, and comparing people to animals. These things don't add substance to an argument and even according to you are not ok.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:40 PM #5776
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Do you not see your own hypocrisy nwfreefly. I called you out on "appealing to ridicule" and you defended it, now you're calling Pi R out on "appealing to ridicule" and you're calling it "not ok".



To keep the post short and focused, I wasn't manipulating context, we can all go a page back and see it. Calling beliefs BS, reasoning crap, and comparing people to animals. These things don't add substance to an argument and even according to you are not ok.
No Duke I am saying Christians give as good as they get and to stop complaining about it. I think these memes are completely fair game on both sides. My point, which you seem to miss a lot, is that you should not expect special treatment because you are on the side of religion.
meme away.
So no I don't see the hypocrisy.

Duke try to understand I can tell you are genuinely a really nice good person and it is actually your beliefs I am attacking. Im sure you don't think so but I have respect for you and wish you well.
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