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Old 09-05-2015, 05:34 AM #5713
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I encourage you all to not only read the summary I'm quoting but the entire article and take time to reflect on it. Historically Jesus did much more than exist. He is the risen savior.

Quote:
Fact #1: After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in the tomb. This fact is highly significant because it means that the location of Jesus’s tomb was known to Jew and Christian alike. In that case it becomes inexplicable how belief in his resurrection could arise and flourish in the face of a tomb containing his corpse. According to the late John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge University, the honorable burial of Jesus is one of "the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus."15

Fact #2: On the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his women followers. According to Jakob Kremer, an Austrian specialist on the resurrection, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb."16 As D. H. van Daalen points out, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."17

Fact #3: On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. This is a fact that is almost universally acknowledged among New Testament scholars today. Even Gert Lüdemann, perhaps the most prominent current critic of the resurrection, admits, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ."18

Finally, fact #4: The original disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every reason not to. Despite having every predisposition to the contrary, it is an undeniable fact of history that the original disciples believed in, proclaimed, and were willing to go to their deaths for the fact of Jesus’s resurrection. C. F. D. Moule of Cambridge University concludes that we have here a belief which nothing in terms of prior historical influences can account for—apart from the resurrection itself.19

Any responsible historian, then, who seeks to give an account of the matter, must deal with these four independently established facts: the honorable burial of Jesus, the discovery of his empty tomb, his appearances alive after his death, and the very origin of the disciples’ belief in his resurrection and, hence, of Christianity itself. I want to emphasize that these four facts represent, not the conclusions of conservative scholars, nor have I quoted conservative scholars, but represent rather the majority view of New Testament scholarship today. The question is: how do you best explain these facts?

Now this puts the sceptical critic in a somewhat desperate situation. For example, some time ago I had a debate with a professor at the University of California, Irvine, on the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. He had written his doctoral dissertation on the subject and was thoroughly familiar with the evidence. He could not deny the facts of Jesus’s honorable burial, his empty tomb, his post-mortem appearances, and the origin of the disciples’ belief in his resurrection. Therefore, his only recourse was to come up with some alternative explanation of these facts. And so he argued that Jesus had an unknown identical twin brother who was separated from him at birth, came back to Jerusalem just at the time of the crucifixion, stole Jesus’s body out of the grave, and presented himself to the disciples, who mistakenly inferred that Jesus was risen from the dead! Now I won’t go into how I went about refuting his theory, but I think that this theory is instructive because it shows to what desperate lengths skepticism must go in order to deny the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. In fact, the evidence is so powerful that one of today’s leading Jewish theologians Pinchas Lapide has declared himself convinced on the basis of the evidence that the God of Israel raised Jesus from the dead!20

Conclusion

In summary, the gospels are not only trustworthy documents in general, but as we look at some of the most important aspects of Jesus in the gospels, like his radical personal claims, his miracles, his trial and crucifixion, and his resurrection, their historical veracity shines through. God has acted in history, and we can know it.

Read more: Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus | Reasonable Faith
Rediscovering the Historical Jesus: The Evidence for Jesus | Reasonable Faith


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Old 09-05-2015, 08:00 AM #5714
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I think he had contact with a highly advanced civilization who tried to bring ethics to the planet, with far superior medical technology, it wouldn't be difficult to bring someone back to life, even with our technology today, people pronounced dead are sometimes coming back to life and scaring the hell out of people, even after a few days. OK, if that happens they weren't really dead... so, was Christ?
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"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

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Old 09-05-2015, 11:59 AM #5715
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Most of what they call evidence here, is the bible. Again.

He mentions Josephus, and most historians think this guy his few claims about jesus were tenuous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

He thinks it should be considered reliable until proven otherwise, for 5 BS reasons. I quit reading after that.

It's besides the point, but William Lane Craig (the author) has a disgusting view of morality: 'Anything god does is good, because god is good.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc

The most I'm willing to grant is this passage:

Quote:
Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death.
But the same would be said for many messiahs - that a guy with the name existed, and had a following. Mohammad as a big example. No proof besides the holy books says anything about their divinity, really.

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I think he had contact with a highly advanced civilization
Of course.



They did a piss-poor job, and disappeared without a trace, never to be seen again.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:46 PM #5716
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

IT was a joke Cy.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 09-05-2015, 04:55 PM #5717
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Are you sure? That's exactly the sort of belief you've vocalized in the past.
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:57 PM #5718
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I believe it is possible, but I inserted the remark tongue in cheek in this instance. But, since I did, I started thinking more about the possibility and the religious virgin birth could be in actuality an alien intervention, and the son of God is in fact son of an extraterrestrial and an alien hybrid. It is hypothesized that when angels visited Mary in what she perceived as a dream, the dream was a visit by aliens. The aliens artificially inseminated her with genetically engineered or alien sperm. This alien was the “Angel-Gabriel” a member of the alien race. Jesus was alleged to have had superhuman abilities. Mary gave birth to Jesus while she was still a virgin, and therefore Jesus was one of the first alien-human hybrids.

Through history it was often claimed that important people had miraculous births. For example, Plato was said to have been born by the union of the god Apollo with his mother. Alexander the Great was said to have been conceived when a thunderbolt fell from heaven and made his mother Olympias pregnant before her marriage to Philip of Macedon. While in the book of Genesis it was told that the sons of gods had intercourse with women to produce heroes.

The gods and heroes of the Mystery religions were all born of virgins. In the first century, this belief was prevalent. Because the Mystery religions are much older than Christianity, it seems that these ideas were creeping into the Nazarene Community concerning Jesus. That is, he was the product of a union between a mortal and a God, with the God being an extraterrestrial, or referred to as an ET.

Looking more closely at the birth of Jesus, four gospels mention the life of Jesus. Mark, the earliest gospel, written in the early 70’s A.D., does not mention the birth of Jesus. The gospel of John claims that Jesus was the son of Joseph, and thus not a virgin birth. Only the gospels of Matthew and Luke refer to the biological miracle of a virgin woman being made pregnant by an act of God and giving birth to a son. It was through these two versions of the gospel, that the status of Jesus was elevated to the status of the Greek savior gods. Around the first century as Christianity spread, the Pagans were hesitant to follow a God who was not born of a God, ET, and a virgin mother. Christianity was deeply rooted in the Graeco-Roman world. With the adoption of the virgin birth, pagans were more accepting of Christianity and began to convert and also brought their religious beliefs. Possibly this elevation of Jesus to status of God, ET, and a virgin leads Christianity to have some extraterrestrial basis.

With the contribution of Matthew and Luke, who present the virgin birth story, there are minor differences. The alien representation, Gabriel, appeared to Joseph according to Matthew, while it was to Mary in Luke. The announcement made by the alien, Gabriel, took place before Mary’s conception in the writings of Luke and after the conception in the writing of Matthew.

Other extraterrestrial influences surrounding the birth of Jesus include the star of Bethlehem, signaling the location of the birth. It is believed that the star was in fact a UFO, which the wise men were motivated to follow via alien telepathic communication. When the translation is commonly done from the Greek language, the accepted word is “wise men” but in this context it probably means astronomer or astrologer.

Between the birth of Jesus and his ministry that began roughly around the age of thirty, little is documented. This could have been an extended period of “missing time.” During this missing time the hybrid Jesus may have been instructed, trained, and prepared by his alien father and their race for his role as son of ET before the human race. This would be in the preparation of miracles, preparing exorcisms, controlling nature, curing the sick and raising the dead. By the way, I just ripped most of this off a conspiracy web site - If nothing else, entertaining but perhaps offensive to people of faith. What really happened? Don't ask me for THE answer, but I can certainly point to some seemingly out of this world ideas. Of course, these ideas are ripe to be taken as crazy, especially to those who believe human beings to be the only intelligent technological life in the universe (well, IMHO that kind of proves we aren't), but for myself such ideas are a more logical possibility for what happened than what most religions teach. This outlook might appear to be a rejection of God or a supreme architect of our universe and beyond, but not to me, that is something much more.
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Sincerely investigate any of these three short quotes as new concepts and you've taken your first step into a larger world:

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness..." - Max Planck. "Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real" - Neils Bohr. "What we call physical things and events do not exist independently of subjective experience..." - Deepak Chopra.

Each of these three rabbit holes go deep, ending up in the same place.

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Old 09-05-2015, 05:11 PM #5719
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Most of what they call evidence here, is the bible. Again.
Reliable historical evidence of a historical event should not go ignored regardless of the title of the book.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
He thinks it should be considered reliable until proven otherwise, for 5 BS reasons.
Then you didn't make it very far in the article because he expands on them. He presents very solid reasons to believe the gospels are true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I quit reading after that.
It's not really a discussion if you only listen to your own side. This isn't the first time I linked an article that you very lightly skimmed then bashed. It's surprising to me that you'll be presented with ideas opposing your own and ignore them, then try to discredit it as if you read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
It's besides the point, but William Lane Craig (the author) has a disgusting view of morality: 'Anything god does is good, because god is good.'
Coming from an atheist this is an inconsistent and self defeating thing to say. The problems of "evil/suffering" existing in the Christian worldview have been fully and reasonably addressed. You on the other hand have no basis for an absolute moral framework and live in a subjective world. Your own admission makes your judgment on what is "good" meaningless.
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:06 PM #5720
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I believe it is possible, but I inserted the remark tongue in cheek in this instance. But, since I did, I started thinking more about the possibility and the religious virgin birth could be in actuality an alien intervention, and the son of God is in fact son of an extraterrestrial and an alien hybrid. It is hypothesized that when angels visited Mary in what she perceived as a dream, the dream was a visit by aliens. The aliens artificially inseminated her with genetically engineered or alien sperm. This alien was the “Angel-Gabriel” a member of the alien race. Jesus was alleged to have had superhuman abilities. Mary gave birth to Jesus while she was still a virgin, and therefore Jesus was one of the first alien-human hybrids.

Through history it was often claimed that important people had miraculous births. For example, Plato was said to have been born by the union of the god Apollo with his mother. Alexander the Great was said to have been conceived when a thunderbolt fell from heaven and made his mother Olympias pregnant before her marriage to Philip of Macedon. While in the book of Genesis it was told that the sons of gods had intercourse with women to produce heroes.

The gods and heroes of the Mystery religions were all born of virgins. In the first century, this belief was prevalent. Because the Mystery religions are much older than Christianity, it seems that these ideas were creeping into the Nazarene Community concerning Jesus. That is, he was the product of a union between a mortal and a God, with the God being an extraterrestrial, or referred to as an ET.

Looking more closely at the birth of Jesus, four gospels mention the life of Jesus. Mark, the earliest gospel, written in the early 70’s A.D., does not mention the birth of Jesus. The gospel of John claims that Jesus was the son of Joseph, and thus not a virgin birth. Only the gospels of Matthew and Luke refer to the biological miracle of a virgin woman being made pregnant by an act of God and giving birth to a son. It was through these two versions of the gospel, that the status of Jesus was elevated to the status of the Greek savior gods. Around the first century as Christianity spread, the Pagans were hesitant to follow a God who was not born of a God, ET, and a virgin mother. Christianity was deeply rooted in the Graeco-Roman world. With the adoption of the virgin birth, pagans were more accepting of Christianity and began to convert and also brought their religious beliefs. Possibly this elevation of Jesus to status of God, ET, and a virgin leads Christianity to have some extraterrestrial basis.

With the contribution of Matthew and Luke, who present the virgin birth story, there are minor differences. The alien representation, Gabriel, appeared to Joseph according to Matthew, while it was to Mary in Luke. The announcement made by the alien, Gabriel, took place before Mary’s conception in the writings of Luke and after the conception in the writing of Matthew.

Other extraterrestrial influences surrounding the birth of Jesus include the star of Bethlehem, signaling the location of the birth. It is believed that the star was in fact a UFO, which the wise men were motivated to follow via alien telepathic communication. When the translation is commonly done from the Greek language, the accepted word is “wise men” but in this context it probably means astronomer or astrologer.

Between the birth of Jesus and his ministry that began roughly around the age of thirty, little is documented. This could have been an extended period of “missing time.” During this missing time the hybrid Jesus may have been instructed, trained, and prepared by his alien father and their race for his role as son of ET before the human race. This would be in the preparation of miracles, preparing exorcisms, controlling nature, curing the sick and raising the dead. By the way, I just ripped most of this off a conspiracy web site - If nothing else, entertaining but perhaps offensive to people of faith. What really happened? Don't ask me for THE answer, but I can certainly point to some seemingly out of this world ideas. Of course, these ideas are ripe to be taken as crazy, especially to those who believe human beings to be the only intelligent technological life in the universe (well, IMHO that kind of proves we aren't), but for myself such ideas are a more logical possibility for what happened than what most religions teach. This outlook might appear to be a rejection of God or a supreme architect of our universe and beyond, but not to me, that is something much more.
You do bring up some interesting ideas. Those stories in Greek and Roman mythology about those people that were half God and half human, and again in the bible in Genesis those sons of God that came to earth and mated with human women and then their offspring became Giants and men of old men of renown. If we assume for now that this is real history then we don't know who they were. They could have been aliens.

I also sometimes hear Christians say that UFO's are carrying demons or Angels and not aliens. What if the opposite is true and demons and angels are aliens. I do not really believe this, but I can't say it's impossible. I do believe there are spirit beings such as Angels and Demons but I also think there should be aliens. I have said here before that twice in my lifetime I have seen what you would call a UFO and both times there were other witnesses and one was up close, not just a light in the sky and I have a hard time believing that either of them were from here.

About those those who believe human beings to be the only intelligent technological life in the universe. I have a hard time understanding how any Christians, Jews, Muslims, could believe this, because I think if we are the only ones then the atheists and scientists are right and we are just an accident.

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Old 09-05-2015, 07:12 PM #5721
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

From what I can gather, the laws of physics quite naturally lead to life, under the right conditions of course, and instead of being an accident; inevitable. When I read about demon controlled UFO's, I laugh... Some might look like demons to us, and that very well may be where such ideas came from to begin with, but not because they are evil, just due to a lack of understanding. It seems there are two blocks for accepting such realities (in my mind) as being possible, one religious dogmas, the other scientific ignorance, due to the mindset nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, ignoring the fact that space can expand at any speed, orders of magnitude faster which can be manipulated to pull space, instead of going through it.
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:22 PM #5722
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
It's not really a discussion if you only listen to your own side.
I gave it a chance. He's demonstrated he's got nothing to say by basically starting out with "oh yeah? Prove the bible ISN'T true". It's a waste of time to read any further.

We've been over this before. Your articles tend to be:
BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS possibly valid point BS BS BS BS BS BS BS liver cancer BS BS BS furby vomit BS a barrel of freeze-dried monkey zits BS BS BS BS possibly valid point BS BS.

"The amount of energy necessary in order to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it"

Make your own arguments, or quote a few you agree with. I'm speaking with you, not bill.

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You... have no basis for an absolute moral framework
Neither do you.

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You... live in a subjective world.
No. Reality is not subjective, only our perception of it. And each observation has varying degrees of certainty associated with it.

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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Your own admission makes your judgment on what is "good" meaningless.
My own admission of what? Meaningless to whom?
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Old 09-05-2015, 07:30 PM #5723
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You can't prove anything to anyone who doesn't want to accept the evidence. It's useless to argue over religion, after all, it's a choice to have faith or not regardless of how logical something is or not, how accurate history is, or not. It goes against many individuals sense of spirituality to live a life without faith and if religion is as close as they can get to fulfilling their desire to be spiritual, that is what they will believe and cling to. Trying to unwrap someones fingers from grasping something they love is to challenge the very meaning of life to them. I am not saying spirituality is not awesome, wonderful and fulfilling, it can be, I just don't associate spirituality with religion, I don't think you necessarily need to believe in God to be spiritual, an atheist can be very spiritual if they don't attach it to the concept of God, but you might go a long way to find one
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:26 PM #5724
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
it's a choice to have faith
Okay, prove it by choosing to believe in Hephaestus for a day.

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It's useless to argue over religion
Then why are you here? Leave if you truly believe that.
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:44 PM #5725
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I gave it a chance. He's demonstrated he's got nothing to say by basically starting out with "oh yeah? Prove the bible ISN'T true". It's a waste of time to read any further.

We've been over this before. Your articles tend to be:
BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS possibly valid point BS BS BS BS BS BS BS liver cancer BS BS BS furby vomit BS a barrel of freeze-dried monkey zits BS BS BS BS possibly valid point BS BS.

"The amount of energy necessary in order to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it"

Make your own arguments, or quote a few you agree with. I'm speaking with you, not bill.
It really seems like you're heavily appealing to ridicule as a cop out, and you've done this before when you've tried to refute articles without reading them. Now according to you this one is all "BS",..... but you haven't read it. If this is how your beliefs are guided how can you ever claim to be objective, or even right.

Just as you do I form my own arguments from my own observations and research. This has lead me to hold the same beliefs presented in the article that Bill has presented more eloquently than I can. If you refute the article you're also refuting beliefs I hold.

I'll do you a favor though, you don't seem to have a problem replying to my posts a few times a week here. I will take a break from this thread for days, weeks, however long it takes to free you up enough time to go through that article.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Neither do you.
Ummm.... the gospel .... duh


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
No. Reality is not subjective, only our perception of it. And each observation has varying degrees of certainty associated with it.

My own admission of what? Meaningless to whom?
Your admission as an atheist. Speaking strictly within your atheistic worldview, reality may not be subjective, but all of reality is defined by perception. And even if you want to claim within your worldview that reality through perception somehow isn't subjective, abstract ideas like morals certainly are. Making every moral judgment you make completely subjective and essentially meaningless to anyone but yourself.
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Old 09-09-2015, 06:59 AM #5726
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Now according to you this one is all "BS"
Read my post again. I said that's what I suspect it is based on your other submissions, and If I see 3 paragraphs of BS, I assume the rest is BS (and therefore a waste of my time). I you disagree, I will leave it up to you to pick out the parts that have merit. At this point, I have no reason to believe there is value in reading the article. If you think there is, I say again: quote a few points you agree with.

"You didn't read to make sure ALL of it was BS" isn't good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
...every moral judgment you make completely subjective and essentially meaningless to anyone but yourself.
There is absolutely a subjective component to my morality (and yours, more on that later), but it's not completely subjective.

Each situation needs to be assessed, but morality that leads to increasing of well-being, or at least avoids its decreasing is conducive to society as well as individuals. "decreasing the well-being of your neighbor is bad" for example certainly isn't universal, but it's a decent starting point. It's certainly a lot better than "man who lies with another man is an abomination"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
all of reality is defined by perception.
As is the gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Ummm.... the gospel .... duh
Completely ignoring the fact that there are countless other religions in the world and focusing just on Christianity for the moment... You will interpret the gospel one way, and a catholic will interpret it another way. Each of the 1000+ other christian denominations will interpret it yet another way, and each member of each of the denominations will interpret it slightly differently.

That is not universal morality.
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:05 PM #5727
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Old 09-12-2015, 03:46 PM #5728
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Read my post again. I said that's what I suspect it is based on your other submissions, and If I see 3 paragraphs of BS, I assume the rest is BS (and therefore a waste of my time). I you disagree, I will leave it up to you to pick out the parts that have merit. At this point, I have no reason to believe there is value in reading the article. If you think there is, I say again: quote a few points you agree with.

"You didn't read to make sure ALL of it was BS" isn't good enough.
Essentially what I'm hearing from you is -

"I read 10% of the article and didn't like it so it's all BS"
"I read the beginning premise, but I won't read the rest that explains the premise because I don't like how it begins"

I don't buy this "it's a waste of my time" argument. I made you an offer so your time is not "wasted".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'll do you a favor though, you don't seem to have a problem replying to my posts a few times a week here. I will take a break from this thread for days, weeks, however long it takes to free you up enough time to go through that article.
And you ignored it, but being honest I'm not surprised. I don't believe this is a time issue. You want me to pick out points but this is a relatively short article on the matter, with an average reading rate it can be completed within 15min. I'm not using a laundry list tactic to overwhelm you, but if a stranger approached me and said "tell me about Jesus you have 5 minutes" my straight up response would be "That's not enough time"

The article concludes on this, I feel like I'm doing you an injustice quoting you the conclusion, but I'm coming to believe you won't touch the meat of the article, so here it is.

Quote:
On the basis of the five reasons I listed, we are justified in accepting the historical reliability of what the gospels say about Jesus unless they are proven to be wrong. At the very least, we cannot assume they are wrong until proven right. The person who denies the gospels’ reliability must bear the burden of proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
There is absolutely a subjective component to my morality (and yours, more on that later), but it's not completely subjective.

Each situation needs to be assessed, but morality that leads to increasing of well-being, or at least avoids its decreasing is conducive to society as well as individuals. "decreasing the well-being of your neighbor is bad" for example certainly isn't universal, but it's a decent starting point. It's certainly a lot better than "man who lies with another man is an abomination"
I can ask why to everything you say here. Show me then in your atheistic naturalistic worldview, how do any of these these thoughts on morality have even a sliver of objectivity. You've shown nothing other then " Well this bad because I think it is"

Quote:
Kai Nielsen, an atheist philosopher who attempts to defend the viability of ethics without God, in the end admits,

We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view, or that all really rational persons, unhoodwinked by myth or ideology, need not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason doesn't decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me . . . . Pure practical reason, even with a good knowledge of the facts, will not take you to morality.1
Your desire for moral objectivity is a testament to, "they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witnes" Romans 2


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Completely ignoring the fact that there are countless other religions in the world and focusing just on Christianity for the moment... You will interpret the gospel one way, and a catholic will interpret it another way. Each of the 1000+ other christian denominations will interpret it yet another way, and each member of each of the denominations will interpret it slightly differently.

That is not universal morality.
There is a lot to unpack in this statement if we were to get into, but if you would take time to study it you would see your conclusion here is a "non sequitur".

You've stated before that your purpose for being in this thread is an attempt to plant seeds of doubt in believers, but your unwillingness to take me up on my offer on reading the article which really isn't very long... well it paints the picture you're only here to "call BS" even when you can't see it. It no longer feels like a two way discussion.
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